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Ordering tools and Stewart Systems/Ekoprime

skipswift

Member
After sitting on my emp kit for 18 months, it's time to start building.

I have the Planetools RV tool kit (https://planetools.com/products/the-gold-standard-of-rv-tool-kits), but I am hoping you can advise as to other tools I'll need to pick up so I don't get started on my build and find I need to wait for additional tools.

Additional drill bits? Is there a set you'd recommend?
Reamers? Sizes?
Anything else?

Age old question -- I've also gone back and forth between AZKO and Stewart Systems Ekoprime and I've read all of the treads on VAF about each. Leaning towards Ekoprime. Any new thinking?

Very much appreciate the guidance.

Thank you.
 
Can't really comment on the tools. I found that I've simply purchased other items as needed. I'd rather figure out that I really need a tool rather than have it languish in my toolbox unused.

As for primer, I have no experience with Akzo, but have primed using EkoPrime. My experience has been good. It is relatively tough once set up and likely more than tough enough for internal use. It is relatively easy to spray, but have found that it dries very quickly in warm temperatures and will tend to leave a slight texture. I deemed it acceptable given that it is so easy to use and clean up. I find that I can spray parts basically as required as it takes just a few minutes to get set up for spraying. I used Smoke Grey, but I think if I was doing it again, I'd use a darker color. The light grey looks great, but it is difficult to assess coverage since it's so close to the color of the scuffed aluminum. As a result, I think I tended to go too light and didn't notice until it was dried. I'll likely switch to Ekopoxy for the cockpit and firewall forward as it should be more durable than Ekoprime.
 
Drill bits

I have Harbor Fright bit set. Mostly use numerical but occasionally grab the alpha buts when drilling something that dulls bits.
I always finish with a reamer.
Common sizes
40, 30, 19, 12, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16 covers most.
Vans calls out an oddball for gear legs. .311"
 
I also got the PlaneTools kit. There's some stuff in it I'm not sure I'll need with how the kits are made these days (the bigger rivet sets) but it's pretty good. I find that the 6" bits are useful (sometimes required, along with 12" bits) but I bought jobber-length (short) bits that work better a lot of the time.

I prefer using 3/32" and 1/8" bits for drilling out bad rivets, being a hair under #40/#30 they're big enough to do the job but a little less prone to overdrilling the hole if I'm off center.

I also bought #30 and #40 straight-flute reamers from Cleaveland, I feel they make fewer burrs when cleaning up holes.

I got two mushroom sets, one rubber-shrouded and one plain, both are useful. An extra rivet gun shank with the 3/16" hole lets you use your squeezer dies in the gun. The zero-flute style hex-shank deburring bit, in a cheap electric screwdriver - I'm a fan, much prefer this over the bent-screwdriver type.

Harbor Freight has a numbered drill set (#60 to #1) and a set that goes 1/16" to 1/2" by 64ths - both cheap and useful, if not real high on the "being straight" scale. And get a 0.001" caliper, there's always something you need to measure finely.

Primers? I'm as lost as you. The two-part spray gun stuff is above my pay grade, I'm in the "mating surfaces only" and "rattle can" camps. So far I tried PTI and Duplicolor (ZnCrO4), not super impressed with either. Thought I'd get a can of Napa 7220 to try later.

Word of warning, the PlaneTools kit comes with two #40 countersink cutters - one is a 100-degree bit meant for countersinking AN426 rivets, the other is a 90-degree bit meant for the deburring tool. Do not use the 90-degree bit for cutting countersinks, I hear that gets expensive fast. :(
 
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I'll chime in on the primer.

I started with Ekoprime for my empennage. I decided I really didn't like it. I used white and it easily got scuffed and dirty. I then switched to Akzo. Yes it is slightly more difficult to prep but it is easy to spray and it is tough as nails. Not trying to rekindle the primer wars but this is my experience. There is Ekopoxy but I have not tried that.

For Akzo the cleanup is pretty easy. Buy a gallon of lacquer thinner from HD aircraft supply and some Nirile gloves from Harbor Freight and you will be set. Also you need paint filters and the ones from HF seem to work fine. Buy a box and you'll have plenty.

I have also sprayed some SEM rattle can primer. I would say that SEM is better than Ekoprime too.

If there was a way to redo my empennage I would do it, but there isn't so I'll have to live with the Ekopoxy primer. I guess that will give you my opinion.
 
I've never used the EkoPrime but I use the EkoPoxy. EkoPoxy is quite durable and sprays easily. I like it.

I use it in areas that get wear. But the airframe generally has been primed with SEM or zinc chromate or zinc phosphate. Note though that I live in a dry climate.

I have heard that the water-based Stewart products can rust bare steel. I've never tried to use EkoPoxy on steel so can't comment. Before I discovered EkoPoxy I had someone spray Azko on my landing gear legs and that has proven to be durable too.

I sprayed the roll bar, a steel weldment on my plane, with Eastwood's epoxy primer. This is a two-part epoxy primer that comes in a rattlecan. It's good for 48 hours upon initiation. It sprays quite well.

Dave
RV-3B, now setting up the cockpit
 
Thanks everyone. Great info.

Interestingly enough, it looks like the cobalt bits at Harbor Freight are the same as sold by Aircraft Spruce.

Two additional primer questions:
- If applied similarly, any idea which is heavier, AZKO or Ekoprime?
- Any idea how much primer is needed for the RV 10 emp kit?

Thanks again.
 
Primers

I used Azko on my RV8 build. The stuff is seriously toxic so you will need a fresh air respirator. I went very overboard: etched with phosphoric acid, conversion coated and then the primer. It is tough as nails but that is a lot of steps.
 
I'm now leaning towards Azko -- scuff with maroon Scotchbrite pads, clean with acetone, and spay. But Larry recommended Kirker Enduro Prime at one point, so I'm looking in to that as well.
 
I use prekote and AKZO for primer. It's a lot of work but the results are very good.

I also bought the PlaneTools kit. One issue I had was that of the supplied dimple dies, only the #40 and #30 sizes are springback. I found this out when I dimpled some larger holes and had sub-par dimples. I ended up ordering a whole new dimple die kit from Cleaveland that immediately fixed the issue...
 
A comment on the ACS separate drill bits. I have found them not to be that great. I now buy from other sources. If you were referring to drill bit sets I'm not sure about that.

I have a drill bit set from long ago. I think they are HS steel. What I decided to do was just buy the box and then add in Cobalt bits for the standard sizes that we use in the plane. For example #30, #40 and etc. If I run across a size that I don't have I add it onto my list of stuff to buy and I use the bit from my old set. Sometimes you will want a slightly smaller or larger bit. I've found the Yardstore to be a good source for these things at a reasonable price. Brown Tool also is another good source. They also sometimes have new surplus tools and etc. that they sell at a good price. I would suggest you check out both of these locations. I have spent plenty of money at tool sellers and it has been incremental in building up to what I have right now. Don't worry about having everything up front. There are tools that are not on Vans list or not in the full sets that people sell that you will want. You'll figure it out over time and you will develop your own preferences too.

One item that I really like is having a quick change chuck on my air drill. Cleaveland Tools sell these chucks and the drill bit adapter. What I did was take off the original 1/4" chuck and add the quick change adapter to it. Then if I need to drill a hole that I don't have a drill bit adapter I use the original chuck. Its a great system if you only have a single air drill. They also sell lightweight air hoses that I use. I have a main air hose and then a manifold that I adapt to the lightweight hoses.
 
Stewart Systems EkoPrime thoughts

I have been using EkoPrime successfully on my build. I have no experience with other products so I can’t weigh in on alternatives. I find it easy to spray (I use the 3M PPS system) and very easy to clean up. The lack of odor and toxic chemicals is a huge plus for me.

I have encountered some roughness in the coat on large skins but it appears to be related to too much air and/or drying too quickly while completing the coat. Spraying large parts vertically also helps to avoid overspray settling on the surface. I haven’t experienced any real issues and enjoy working with it.

I also haven’t had problems with durability or scuffing but I’m a careful builder (most of the time :)).

I am priming everything but trying to keep it light. I dilute 10% with distilled water as recommended. I used just over 2 quarts for the empennage kit.

Here is the first priming post from my build log where I describe my process. I haven’t changed anything since then.

https://airplane.allanglen.com/2020/10/06/priming-the-parts-for-the-vertical-stabilizer/

There are plenty of photos on my build log of primed parts.
 
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My whole plane was primed with EkoPrime (interior surfaces only). I loved working with it, and my wife appreciated it too. Since all of my priming was done in my garage, it prevented the house from really smelling.
 
Drill and bits

The best drill - maybe my favorite tool - is a used angle drill I bought on eBay - Boeing surplus, I think. I don't use it much but it's saved my bacon more than a few times. And I didn't buy it until I really needed it.

I buy Irwin cobalt bits locally to keep my neighborhood Ace Hardware in business. They have bits in every numerical and fractional size, and I can get them anytime the store is open, so I don't have to keep a bunch on hand. I also like chucking reamers, which I mostly order from ATS.

I can't say much about priming because I bought a used kit that wasn't primed (it looks fine after a bunch of years in a leaky hangar - just sayin'). When I need to prime, I use Rustoleum self-etching primer in a rattle can. Does what it's supposed to do - pretty durable after fully curing. Can buy it almost anywhere. I use Wirejock's prep method and scuff with maroon pads and Bon Ami, which works like a charm without PPE or nasty runoff.
 
I used the EkoPrime on mine throughout the build and found it totally acceptable. At first, I didn't know what I was doing and got it all over the place, too thick, too runny, made all the mistakes, but with time and experience with the (harbor freight) paint sprayer, I've gotten pretty proficient. Since I'm spraying in my backyard, it is very nice that it's not a radioactive toxic stew, and also convenient that you can just pour the unused stuff back in the can.

For tools, I went with one of the standard lists of what RV builders need, but instead of buying a kit new, I got most things on eBay and locally via craigslist. A couple of things that I use a lot but aren't emphasized in RV tool kits:

  • Right angle drill - I use this all the time. Essential tool
  • Bandsaw. Not strictly needed but again, I use it all the time
  • Channel lock pliers
  • Good squares and straightedges
  • Multiple squeezer yokes. You'll always encounter a scenario where a 3" doesn't fit or is too big
  • Multiple countersink cages, so you don't have to constantly be swapping them
  • Tungsten bucking bars as "daily drivers" but I also got a few oddly shaped steel ones for weird rivets
  • Good wire stripper
  • GOOD quality crimp tool (I borrowed one)
  • Heat gun for heat shrink and wire labels
  • Tube bender and flare tool for fuel lines and other aluminum tubes
  • Tons and tons and tons of clamps. You can never have enough.

You won't need them all right away, but eventually you'll be buying them. I sometimes feel like an RV build is optimized to require as many tools as possible.
 
Wow, 1:10? Stewart says max 10% dilution. Have they input on the porosity of the finish coat using this dilution ratio? I'm sure it sprays better, but is it providing the protection? I just sprayed my first parts (I'm priming my training kit to practice). It didn't go as smooth as I wanted so I was thinking about a higher dilution but I would worry about integrity of the coat at that ratio.
Maybe you mean 10 parts Ekoprime to 1 part water?

Tools, the list of 'must have' items isn't too long, but the list of 'nice to have' items is probably lengthy. I'm still collecting tools and waiting on my EMP kit. When I finish the practice kit I have the Van's lighted sign to build.


I have been using EkoPrime successfully on my build. I have no experience with other products so I can’t weigh in on alternatives. I find it easy to spray (I use the 3M PPS system) and very easy to clean up. The lack of odor and toxic chemicals is a huge plus for me.

I have encountered some roughness in the coat on large skins but it appears to be related to too much air and/or drying too quickly while completing the coat. Spraying large parts vertically also helps to avoid overspray settling on the surface. I haven’t experienced any real issues and enjoy working with it.

I also haven’t had problems with durability or scuffing but I’m a careful builder (most of the time :)).

I am priming everything but trying to keep it light. I dilute 1:10 with distilled water. I used just over 2 quarts for the empennage kit.

Here is the first priming post from my build log where I describe my process. I haven’t changed anything since then.

https://airplane.allanglen.com/2020/10/06/priming-the-parts-for-the-vertical-stabilizer/

There are plenty of photos on my build log of primed parts.
 
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Can't really comment on the tools. I found that I've simply purchased other items as needed. I'd rather figure out that I really need a tool rather than have it languish in my toolbox unused.

As for primer, I have no experience with Akzo, but have primed using EkoPrime. My experience has been good. It is relatively tough once set up and likely more than tough enough for internal use. It is relatively easy to spray, but have found that it dries very quickly in warm temperatures and will tend to leave a slight texture. I deemed it acceptable given that it is so easy to use and clean up. I find that I can spray parts basically as required as it takes just a few minutes to get set up for spraying. I used Smoke Grey, but I think if I was doing it again, I'd use a darker color. The light grey looks great, but it is difficult to assess coverage since it's so close to the color of the scuffed aluminum. As a result, I think I tended to go too light and didn't notice until it was dried. I'll likely switch to Ekopoxy for the cockpit and firewall forward as it should be more durable than Ekoprime.

I was having a rough texture with the ekoprime too, thinning it more took care of that. Thinned it to the recommended 10%, which made it very thin, but sprays better and no roughness.


The mixing paint can cover shown in allanglen's photos is awesome too.
 
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Wow, 1:10? Stewart says max 10% dilution. Have they input on the porosity of the finish coat using this dilution ratio? I'm sure it sprays better, but is it providing the protection? I just sprayed my first parts (I'm priming my training kit to practice). It didn't go as smooth as I wanted so I was thinking about a higher dilution but I would worry about integrity of the coat at that ratio.
Maybe you mean 10 parts Ekoprime to 1 part water?

Tools, the list of 'must have' items isn't too long, but the list of 'nice to have' items is probably lengthy. I'm still collecting tools and waiting on my EMP kit. When I finish the practice kit I have the Van's lighted sign to build.

I dilute 10%. I described that incorrectly and I have clarified my post. Thanks for pointing that out!
 
I was having a rough texture with the ekoprime too, thinning it more took care of that. Thinned it to the recommended 10%, which made it very thin, but sprays better and no roughness.


The mixing paint can cover shown in allanglen's photos is awesome too.

I will try a bit of dilution to see if that makes it flow a little better. I've found that if I put on a light coat first, then follow up within about 10 mins with a slightly thicker coat, it seems to work out OK. I have found it will clog up the filters in my HVLP gun though. So filter first and avoid the gun filter.

I agree with the use of the Mixing Mates. Great invention. Also, I buy EkoPrime in 1 gallon pails and transfer it to smaller 1 qt pails after mixing it thoroughly. Keep the unused ones sealed and the one you're using in the Mixing Mate.
 
drill bits

another option for numbered drill bits are the industrial supply houses.
Tacoma Screw and Fastenal carry just about all the numbered sizes, or can get them. they sell individual pieces, as well.

Doug
Seattle area
 
I have been happy with Ekoprime on my RV-10. It can require a bit of thickness to get smooth, but for interior (unpainted) parts it seems to be just fine and plenty strong. I have read you can dilute it a bit with distilled water to improve smoothness, so I am still experimenting with that. Easy to spray, easy to cleanup.
 
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