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Flight test minimum hours

T

thehagg501

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Can someone tell me the rule regarding minimum hours required for a fresh built homebuilt with a certified vs uncertified engine. I'm specifically inquiring about a Lycoming certified vs Lycoming non certified. Some info i've found indicates 25 hrs for a cert engine and 40 for non.

thanks,
Shannon
 
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The current rule is 25 hrs minimum for a certified engine and prop combination. 40 hrs minimum if not.
There is a revision coming soon to allow a "task based" phase I with no minimum number of hrs.
The new system is outlined in AC 90-89C.
EAA says it is available now, but I have not found a FSDO or MIDO that has received the "letter of deviation" allowing it.
EAA says that the letter is in the works and should be distributed within a week.
 
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Change of venue

Speaking of minimum flight test hours, is it possible to get a split flight test area. Say 25 hours at some point in the desert, then the remainder of the 40 hours at my home field that is 15 minutes from inside the city to an unpopulated area?
 
How far apart are the two airports? My test area was huge. It had 5 legs and two of them were 50+ miles. The border (flight track) length was around 160 miles.

I do remember being surprised that they would approve of such a large area.
Fyi - this was in northern California, 6 years ago.
 
PilotjohnS said:
Speaking of minimum flight test hours, is it possible to get a split flight test area. Say 25 hours at some point in the desert, then the remainder of the 40 hours at my home field that is 15 minutes from inside the city to an unpopulated area?
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This is possible if the 2 airports are reasonably close. Your test area should include both airports. Your inspector should be able to work with you on this. Most FAA offices that I have worked with are pretty lenient upon flight test areas as long as the request is reasonable and over uncongested areas.
 
Mel said:
There is a revision coming soon to allow a "task based" phase I with no minimum number of hrs.
The new system is outlined in AC 90-89C.
EAA says it is available now, but I have not found a FSDO or MIDO that has received the "letter of deviation" allowing it.
EAA says that the letter is in the works and should be distributed within a week.
Click to expand...

My understanding is the new system is tied up in FAA internal bureaucratic squabbling.
 
Mel said:
The current rule is 25 hrs minimum for a certified engine and prop combination. 40 hrs minimum if not.
There is a revision coming soon to allow a "task based" phase I with no minimum number of hrs.
The new system is outlined in AC 90-89C.
EAA says it is available now, but I have not found a FSDO or MIDO that has received the "letter of deviation" allowing it.
EAA says that the letter is in the works and should be distributed within a week.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is in work….our Xenos is sort of the test case going through the process right now. We had the inspection, but due to some interdepartmental coordination still going on at FAA HQ, we had them issue the regular Ops Lims to get us flying while waiting for all the i’s and T’s to be figuring out, at which time they’ll just give me amended Ops Lims. We expect that “any day now”……. Meanwhile, we’re prepping for first flight with the existing Ops Lims and will use the EAA Fight test program so we have all the evidence to complete Phase 1 as Task Based.

Paul
 
How long does it usually take to get Operating Limitations amended? Trying to figure out whether it would even be worth the time and hassle, in the middle of Phase 1. I was going to call my local FSDO to see if they could change my 40 hours to 25, since I have an eligible kit/engine/prop combination, and to also add the wording that allows for AC.90-89C task based completion. But if it takes them 40 flying hours to make the wording change and re-issue the document, then it's obviously not worth it.
 
Draker said:
How long does it usually take to get Operating Limitations amended? Trying to figure out whether it would even be worth the time and hassle, in the middle of Phase 1. I was going to call my local FSDO to see if they could change my 40 hours to 25, since I have an eligible kit/engine/prop combination, and to also add the wording that allows for AC.90-89C task based completion. But if it takes them 40 flying hours to make the wording change and re-issue the document, then it's obviously not worth it.
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Amending op lims typically takes maybe a couple of days if everything is in order.

If you are in the middle of Phase I, it would probably not be practical to "change horses". Even the "Task Based" testing, if done properly, will likely take close to 40 hrs.
 
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Mel said:
Amending op lims typically takes maybe a couple of days if everything is in order.

If you are in the middle of Phase I, it would probably not be practical to "change horses". Even the "Task Based" testing, if done properly, will likely take close to 40 hrs.
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I’d guess Mel has it right - we have a special case, where there are motivated people at the FSDO to react as on as they have the OK.

And Mel is also correct on hours to to the test program - I have used the EAA test program twice, and it has taken between 35 and 38 hours each time. And I was very familiar (and current) on the tasks, which require a certain level of precision, or need to be repeated.
 
Ironflight said:
I’d guess Mel has it right - we have a special case, where there are motivated people at the FSDO to react as on as they have the OK.

And Mel is also correct on hours to to the test program - I have used the EAA test program twice, and it has taken between 35 and 38 hours each time. And I was very familiar (and current) on the tasks, which require a certain level of precision, or need to be repeated.
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Thanks, Paul and Mel. That's kind of what I was thinking, too. I'm following the EAA Task-based book either way, and after 10 hours I've barely even scratched the surface of the tests and weight/CG configurations. It'll take me well over 40 to go through the book at this rate, so I suppose the answer is: It doesn't matter.
 
Ironflight said:
I’d guess Mel has it right - we have a special case, where there are motivated people at the FSDO to react as on as they have the OK.

And Mel is also correct on hours to to the test program - I have used the EAA test program twice, and it has taken between 35 and 38 hours each time. And I was very familiar (and current) on the tasks, which require a certain level of precision, or need to be repeated.
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Back in the days of EAA Board stuff, one of the things that we discussed was the focus on getting builders to do the TASKS that better validated the safety of the aircraft and to get away from a set number of hours.

Of course nobody here has done it, but there *probably* were some people who after the first flight or so, just let the "meter run" or flew around in circles until the hours added up. Not necessarily the safest thing to do.

On the other hand, if you were able to do a thorough "shake down" of the plane (tasks) in LESS that say 40 hours then there was no need to have you burn AVgas to exit Phase I.

Back in 2002, I think that I finished the last "test/task/mod/fix" on the RV6 at around 38 hours of flight time. I remember because the last flight was the only just plain ole casual fun flight that I had a chance to do before exiting Phase I.
 
Ironflight said:
I’d guess Mel has it right - we have a special case, where there are motivated people at the FSDO to react as on as they have the OK.

And Mel is also correct on hours to to the test program - I have used the EAA test program twice, and it has taken between 35 and 38 hours each time. And I was very familiar (and current) on the tasks, which require a certain level of precision, or need to be repeated.
Click to expand...

Not knowing the exact test protocols and learning the precision, my -7 Ph I took more than 40 hrs. And resolving all the squawk items took another 40.
 
Draker said:
I was going to call my local FSDO to see if they could change my 40 hours to 25, since I have an eligible kit/engine/prop combination,
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Are you sure? Many of the engines Vans sells come without paperwork - not certified - since they're less expensive that way.
 
Anyone have any updates on this? Looks like Task Based Phase 1 flight testing has been finalized per:

EAA News Release

FAA Memo No AIR-600-DM04

Anyone out there get issued the new operating limits? Curious to people's experience? My final inspection with the DAR is on May 25th, and he is going to issue the new operating limits that allow the task based phase 1.
 
Yes

My DAR said I could do either, but had t choose before it started. I chose 40 hours and not task based. I plan to do the task based stuff, but at my leisure. The task based stuff is great, but if you get some inconsistent data, then you are having to repeat the tests. YMMV. JMHO
 
plbarrett2004 said:
Anyone have any updates on this? Looks like Task Based Phase 1 flight testing has been finalized per:

EAA News Release

FAA Memo No AIR-600-DM04

Anyone out there get issued the new operating limits? Curious to people's experience? My final inspection with the DAR is on May 25th, and he is going to issue the new operating limits that allow the task based phase 1.
Click to expand...

Yes - this can now be done - just have your DAR read and understand the memo. Due to a fortunate coincidence in timing, I think I might have had the first ops Lims in the country issued with the Task-Based Phase 1 (for our eXenos motorglider), and we’re working through the test plan at a leisurely pace.

Our inspection was scheduled the week that the AC came out, and with the help of FAA HQ folks, we navigated the administrivia needed to get all the i’s dotted and T’s crossed to get the right wording - which resulted int eh memo being issued.

Should be a piece of cake for anyone now!

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
Yes - this can now be done - just have your DAR read and understand the memo. Due to a fortunate coincidence in timing, I think I might have had the first ops Lims in the country issued with the Task-Based Phase 1 (for our eXenos motorglider), and we’re working through the test plan at a leisurely pace.
Our inspection was scheduled the week that the AC came out, and with the help of FAA HQ folks, we navigated the administrivia needed to get all the i’s dotted and T’s crossed to get the right wording - which resulted int eh memo being issued.
Should be a piece of cake for anyone now!
Paul
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Yep, I've issued several. Should be standard wording in current Op Lims.
But the DAR must be up to date as I don't believe the wording is in the AWC system yet. CORRECTION; I believe that the AWC system HAS been updated!
 
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This is great news. I've spoken to my DAR (who so far has gone above and beyond expectations in answering questions along the way - I'm quite looking forward to his inspection!) and he is aware of the new guidance and will be issuing the new operating limits.

Reviewing the AC - it looks the like the regulatory documentation requirement is a logbook entry per AC 90-89C (figure 2-3 page 2-9 gives example entry) and the "retention of flight test data."?

Any gotchas I'm missing? (I have the AC and the EAA flight test cards etc)
 
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