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Buying engine for RV12is directly from a Rotax dealer

Ahmed

I'm New Here
Hello Rviators,

I wonder if anyone has idea about getting the engine from Rotax dealer instead of buying it through VANS to avoid markup and delay, same thing for avionics, maybe some builder took this route? I noticed you can save at least $2000 on 912is engine price if you get it from a Rotax distributer!

any advice in this matter would be appreciated

Thanks
 
Hello Rviators,

I wonder if anyone has idea about getting the engine from Rotax dealer instead of buying it through VANS to avoid markup and delay, same thing for avionics, maybe some builder took this route? I noticed you can save at least $2000 on 912is engine price if you get it from a Rotax distributer!

any advice in this matter would be appreciated

Thanks

You will will have to build as an EAB but no issues. :D
 
But if you're going to go E-AB, which I did, maybe you would want to consider a UL engine instead? Simple, more power, direct drive, easy maintenance, EFII, lower cost. Just a thought. I recommend the UL350iS.
 
But if you're going to go E-AB, which I did, maybe you would want to consider a UL engine instead? Simple, more power, direct drive, easy maintenance, EFII, lower cost. Just a thought. I recommend the UL350iS.

Thanks Ron for your great recommendations, I checked the UL350iS it seems amazingly more powerful but I have no idea about UL engines before, I will research on them, I always liked more powerful engines, have you ever seen them before on RV airplanes?
 
I've done quite a bit of research on the UL350iS. Only issue I've heard of is that you must pay particular attention to cooling. Zenith has been flying their CH650B demonstrator quite a few years with this engine. They initial had a learning curve with cooling but soon got it under control by relocating the oil cooler. The engine is dependent on an electrical supply. No mechanical fuel pump. Full FADEC ignition and fuel injection. The internal alternator is 30 amps. There is an optional 50 amp alternator, but it is $500 extra.
I'm very seriously considering this engine for my next project.
 
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An early RV-12 builder, not iS, told me that the engine kit included a number of things that a bare engine buyer would have to source separately, and that practically speaking, it was cheaper to buy from Van's. It might be worth asking for a packing list for that kit to see what you'd need.

Dave
 
An early RV-12 builder, not iS, told me that the engine kit included a number of things that a bare engine buyer would have to source separately, and that practically speaking, it was cheaper to buy from Van's. It might be worth asking for a packing list for that kit to see what you'd need.
Dave

This makes a lot of sense to me. Seldom will you beat Van's pricing when comparing apples to apples!
I would definitely do a lot of investigating before making a decision based on price alone.
 
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An early RV-12 builder, not iS, told me that the engine kit included a number of things that a bare engine buyer would have to source separately, and that practically speaking, it was cheaper to buy from Van's. It might be worth asking for a packing list for that kit to see what you'd need.

Dave

I totally agree with you, I'm sure Vans considers marketing in all of their designs, definitely RVs are not only aluminum sheets and rivets you can modify or outsource them easily, otherwise they wouldn't be the greatest kit airplane manufacturer in history!
 
I've done quite a bit of research on the UL350iS. Only issue I've heard of is that you must pay particular attention to cooling. Zenith has been flying their CH650B demonstrator quite a few years with this engine. They initial had a learning curve with cooling but soon got it under control by relocating the oil cooler. The engine is dependent on an electrical supply. No mechanical fuel pump. Full FADEC ignition and fuel injection. The internal alternator is 30 amps. There is an optional 50 amp alternator, but it is $500 extra.
I'm very seriously considering this engine for my next project.

Thanks Mel for your great input, I was impressed too with UL350is specs, minor issues are normal for new engine manufacturer compared to main players such as Rotax and Lycoming, the big question if this engine can be easily adapted in RV12is without too many engineering modifications!
 
Thanks Mel for your great input, I was impressed too with UL350is specs, minor issues are normal for new engine manufacturer compared to main players such as Rotax and Lycoming, the big question if this engine can be easily adapted in RV12is without too many engineering modifications!

Yeah, that could be a can of worms if no one has done it before. I'm sure it can be done, but not over a weekend for sure.
My search "UL power rv-12" shows that AB enterprises has a FWF kit for the UL260 on an RV-12.
 
ULPower RV-12iS

Cooling issues were solved with mounting the oil cooler up front. There is a complete firewall forward kit for it including a carbon fiber cowing. It is how I am building my RV-12iS. After flying in a 12 with the 350iS, it was a no brainer for me. It is not a ?first?, there are a few out there. Ray Lawrence is the person to talk to. Kaolin Aviation. He has a 12 with the ULPower 350iS at his hangar currently.
 
Thanks Ron for your great recommendations, I checked the UL350iS it seems amazingly more powerful but I have no idea about UL engines before, I will research on them, I always liked more powerful engines, have you ever seen them before on RV airplanes?

I have the UL350iS installed on my RV-12. I just finished my second annual with over 400 hours and climbing; I am very pleased with it. There was definitely a steep learning curve (as in, the first one flying with this engine...), but working with UL and Ray Laurence at Kaolin Aviation, it's running very well now. I have the setup dialed in now and Ray has a FWF package. There are a bunch of RV-12's with UL engines flying now; the first one's were the 260 engine, but my recommendation is for the 350, mostly because it performs very well in the airframe and isn't a whole lot more than the 260; it was something like $2K difference in 2016 when I bought my engine.

I've done quite a bit of research on the UL350iS. Only issue I've heard of is that you must pay particular attention to cooling. Zenith has been flying their CH650B demonstrator quite a few years with this engine. They initial had a learning curve with cooling but soon got it under control by relocating the oil cooler. The engine is dependent on an electrical supply. No mechanical fuel pump. Full FADEC ignition and fuel injection. The internal alternator is 30 amps. There is an optional 50 amp alternator, but it is $500 extra.
I'm very seriously considering this engine for my next project.

The engine, much like most air cooled engines, uses oil as a major engine cooling function in addition to lubrication, so getting the oil cooler air flow correct is important. I used piccolo's before and after the oil cooler to provide differential pressure data as I made changes in the cooler, cowl and shrouding. I have that worked out now and operate within the oil temperature band without issue.

I want to clarify that the alternator is a permanent magnet alternator, meaning it operates on the same electrical principle as a standard magneto; if the engine is spinning, the alternator is making power. If the battery fails, the alternator keeps running. In fact, if you wire your battery such that you can isolate the battery from your electrical system, it'll keep purring right along. I can attest to this as I verify that operation routinely. Having completely disassembled and inspected the alternator (all two major parts ;) ) - I can say it's well made, (by Cycle Electric in Ohio, no less.)

I bought my engine used and retrofitted to the 50A alternator and highly recommend getting it as an option if you're buying new. It also has a rectifying regulator instead of the shunt type that the 30A comes with.
 
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Cooling issues were solved with mounting the oil cooler up front. There is a complete firewall forward kit for it including a carbon fiber cowing. It is how I am building my RV-12iS. After flying in a 12 with the 350iS, it was a no brainer for me. It is not a ?first?, there are a few out there. Ray Lawrence is the person to talk to. Kaolin Aviation. He has a 12 with the ULPower 350iS at his hangar currently.

That sounds so promising, I wonder based on your experience flight if you have any numbers about that particular RV performance?
 
That sounds so promising, I wonder based on your experience flight if you have any numbers about that particular RV performance?

With 2 over 200 lb people and full gas, hot day, we climbed out at 1500 ft per minute. And that was with a ground adjustable prop set at max cruise. I highly doubt you will have any performance concerns, but Ron would have a better idea than I would about overall performance. I think you will be hard pressed to have a public statement of cruise speed in a plane classified as an LSA.
 
I have the UL350iS installed on my RV-12. I just finished my second annual with over 400 hours and climbing; I am very pleased it. There was definitely a steep learning curve (as in, the first one flying with this engine...), but working with UL and Ray Laurence at Kaolin Aviation, it's running very well now. I have the setup dialed in now and Ray has a FWF package. There are a bunch of RV-12's with UL engines flying now; the first one's were the 260 engine, but my recommendation is for the 350, mostly because it performs very well in the airframe and isn't a whole lot more than the 260; it was something like $2K difference in 2016 when I bought my engine.



The engine, much like most air cooled engines, uses oil as a major engine cooling function in addition to lubrication, so getting the oil cooler air flow correct is important. I used piccolo's before and after the oil cooler to provide differential pressure data as I made changes in the cooler, cowl and shrouding. I have that worked out now and operate within the oil temperature band without issue.

I want to clarify that the alternator is a permanent magnet alternator, meaning it operates on the same electrical principle as a standard magneto; if the engine is spinning, the alternator is making power. If the battery fails, the alternator keeps running. In fact, if you wire your battery such that you can isolate the battery from your electrical system, it'll keep purring right along. I can attest to this as I verify that operation routinely. Having completely disassembled and inspected the alternator (all two major parts ;) ) - I can say it's well made, (by Cycle Electric in Ohio, no less.)

I bought my engine used and retrofitted to the 50A alternator and highly recommend getting it as an option if you're buying new. It also has a rectifying regulator instead of the shunt type that the 30A comes with.


Thanks Ron again, Im happy for you because things worked out very well in your wonderful RV12is, I'm more convinced now to consider UL engines! do you have approximate estimate how much it would cost me to have a new UL35is with FWF and complete installation set-up?
 
For me, there were a few things that convinced me. The engine is easily overhauled with off the shelf parts and is a proven engine although that is more Zenith and kitfox based numbers. I liked direct drive, FADEC with FI and the simplicity of the design. Nothing against Rotax, there is a lot of them flying, but from everything including rubber change out, gearbox service and pretty much a new engine at TBO, it was not a hard decision for me to make. That Rotax looks awfully complex for me.
 
With 2 over 200 lb people and full gas, hot day, we climbed out at 1500 ft per minute. And that was with a ground adjustable prop set at max cruise. I highly doubt you will have any performance concerns, but Ron would have a better idea than I would about overall performance. I think you will be hard pressed to have a public statement of cruise speed in a plane classified as an LSA.

I can imagine how fast it was cruising knowing it was climbing at 1500 ft per min! I totally understand Lol
 
Thanks Ron again, Im happy for you because things worked out very well in your wonderful RV12is, I'm more convinced now to consider UL engines! do you have approximate estimate how much it would cost me to have a new UL35is with FWF and complete installation set-up?

If you have not talked with Ray, you should; he would be the right person to get you current pricing. My setup would not be a good reference for what it would cost as I bought a used engine, and then went through a couple engine mount and cowl iterations to get it right. But all-in, my FWF - including cowl, mount, engine, wires, battery, hoses, cooler, prop, spinner and hardware, was very reasonable.

Having flown mine nearly everyday to work as a commuter, and across the US and back now a couple times along with weekend getaways with my beloved over the last two years, I can say it performs very well in the hottest summer weather and is very solid in the wet fall and springs, along with winter weather as well (the muffler heater box works well).

It's a great little airplane for two and climbs and cruises with performance that is very satisfying - especially for the money invested and miserly fuel burn. The engine has started every time I've asked it to, is very simple to operate and maintain, well documented (now) and does away with many of the negative attributes aircraft engines are known for. It starts within a few blades on the coldest or hottest day, and hot starts are instant - like starting your modern car instant. No more carb heat, "float sinker clubs", carb syncing, engine pre-take-off run-ups, mag timing - and this list goes on. I say again, easy to maintain, and dirt simple to operate - as in "start, push the throttle, go".

I'll be glad to talk with you about it if you would like.
 
If you have not talked with Ray, you should; he would be the right person to get you current pricing. My setup would not be a good reference for what it would cost as I bought a used engine, and then went through a couple engine mount and cowl iterations to get it right. But all-in, my FWF - including cowl, mount, engine, wires, battery, hoses, cooler, prop, spinner and hardware, was very reasonable.

Having flown mine nearly everyday to work as a commuter, and across the US and back now a couple times along with weekend getaways with my beloved over the last two years, I can say it performs very well in the hottest summer weather and is very solid in the wet fall and springs, along with winter weather as well (the muffler heater box works well).

It's a great little airplane for two and climbs and cruises with performance that is very satisfying - especially for the money invested and miserly fuel burn. The engine has started every time I've asked it to, is very simple to operate and maintain, well documented (now) and does away with many of the negative attributes aircraft engines are known for. It starts within a few blades on the coldest or hottest day, and hot starts are instant - like starting your modern car instant. No more carb heat, "float sinker clubs", carb syncing, engine pre-take-off run-ups, mag timing - and this list goes on. I say again, easy to maintain, and dirt simple to operate - as in "start, push the throttle, go".

I'll be glad to talk with you about it if you would like.

Thanks Ron for your help, I really appreciate it, definitely I would love to talk with you about your airplane, I will send you a PM for sure :)
 
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