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New and Exciting Way to Screw Up

DonFromTX

DonFromTX

Well Known Member
I have always tried to screw up if a different way, not the boring ways that are not too exciting.
I could use some ideas on this one. While looking up the channel where the main landing gear fits, I noticed I had missed some rivets! The missing are where the floor ribs rivet to the channel, for some reason I missed them. I was able with several rivet squeezers thru the end and up thru the inspection holes in the bottom to get some of them in, but there are a few missing and no way to install them.
I finally decided the BEST way was to cut the seat floor along the sharpie dotted lines in the photo, then rivet the pieces back in. Anybody else done this? Anybody have any better ideas?
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you should be able to drill the seat pan out...

you should be able to drill the seat pan out to gain access... a bit of work, but much less disruptive than cutting a section out and making a satisfactory repair.
 
Do NOT cut

Don,
It is hard to visualize where the missing rivets are, so it is hard to give advice. I know from past experience that whenever I take a drastic step, I regret it later. I suggest that you wait and think about it. And get some others to look at it. Are these pop rivets or solid rivets? If they are pop rivets, maybe someone knows of a special tool for pulling them in tight places.
Joe Gores
 
Haven't looked at mine, but - -

Agree with Stephen. Drill the rivets out. If you are going to paint the interior, or cover it, a few marks will not be an issue I'd say.

John Bender
 
I have been laboring over this for some time. Drilling out the rivets seems simple enough, but if you look in the upper left hand corner of the photo, you will see that is not possible to do. That does give me an idea though, I may however just cut out that corner, less joint work that way and less cutting.
They are pop rivets Joe, if you were to look in the MLG channel from the inside, you can see the places where the ribs rivet to the channel front piece. One could rivet them from the MLG channel, except there just is not enough room for the handle of the puller to function.
I had hoped someone made a simple short coupled rivet puller, none seem to exist. I have even toyed with taking the head of a puller and making something that one could use wrenches on to pull the rivet. I have 5 entirely different design rivet pullers, none will quite do the job.
 
Remove/Replace

Remove the offending part any way you can, get a new one from Van's and replace same... Would that work? Easy for me to say since I live 15 min from the Mother Ship.
 
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I would love to do that if I could. If you have a 12 under construction to this point, you can take a look at that offending corner to see the problems. Pulling the bottom fuse skin is another option, but that is a LOT of rivets to drill out. I just wish someone had invented a very close quarters rivet puller. Before I cut, I am going to play with that idea as well. I have a lathe and milling maching in the shop so engineering such a tool is the only problem to solve.
Who knows, I may well need it again later!
 
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how many rivets exactly? maybe you could ask vans and just not put them in, with their approval?
 
Consider using an AN screw and nut if possible in place of the rivet. Dont ask why this thought came to me (been there done that).
 
Cannot access both sides of the piece, so screw and nut is out. Total of five rivets are involved, all on the very bottom of the ribs, three on one side, two on the other. Shade tree engineering would make it appear they could be left out with no weakness to the structure. I think I will ask Vans just for the heck of it.
For how this happened, we can blame it on Vans I guess! Look at page 21-08, step five. No way you could rivet that until you turn it over to put on the bottom skin. Apparently that is the step just before attaching the bottom skin which I missed, probably had a thought that I would remember to rivet them when I turned it over. I didn't remember though.
 
drill out and peel up?

if you drill out the bulk of the rivets out of the seat pan to allow you to peel the skin up can you gain sufficient access to the missing rivets?
 
Circle cutout

Don
Have you considered using a fly cutter and cutting a round hole in the seat pan to gain access and then pop riveting a new round cover over the hole to close it up again like you did with you fuel tank.
Gerry
 
Don, if those are pop rivets, you can easily remove them with an automatic center punch with the tip ground down so it looks like ]]]= . Just slip the tip inside the head of the rivet and push. It will pop out the mandrel and the rivets should come right out.

I learned this trick from a friend who built a Zenith 601CH. I think Avery has the tips and complete punches, but not sure.

Now get that Honda engine purring soon :)

PS: don't forget to clean up all those expelled mandrels. In your case, they may go flying all over the place :)

Joe
 
Would have to be a very large hole, since the rivet puller has to go down to the bottom skin, handles in the open position are quite wide on most all of them.
Gerald Clabots said:
Don
Have you considered using a fly cutter and cutting a round hole in the seat pan to gain access and then pop riveting a new round cover over the hole to close it up again like you did with you fuel tank.
Gerry
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It is not the rivet removal I have a problem with, I have become a pro at drilling out rivets. Even if all were drilled out, the floor pan would still be impossible to remove.
Joel said:
Don, if those are pop rivets, you can easily remove them with an automatic center punch with the tip ground down so it looks like ]]]= . Just slip the tip inside the head of the rivet and push. It will pop out the mandrel and the rivets should come right out.

I learned this trick from a friend who built a Zenith 601CH. I think Avery has the tips and complete punches, but not sure.

Now get that Honda engine purring soon :)

PS: don't forget to clean up all those expelled mandrels. In your case, they may go flying all over the place :)

Joe
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Have you considered removing the forward rivets on the F-1225 and flexing the seat floor to gain access? The fact that the missing rivets are towards the bottom might give you enough room for the puller. You might even be able to extend the mandrel with a bushing, gaining a little additional working angle.

I'm just going from the drawing and don't have an accurate grasp on the geometry, so I could be wrong. Anyway, I thought I'd share my thoughts.

Regards,

Rafael
 
Aiken SC! Married my first wife there where she was born and raised. I will check and see if that is possible or not. What I really need is a robotically controlled rivet puller I could just send down in the hole and letter rip.

woodsideraff said:
Have you considered removing the forward rivets on the F-1225 and flexing the seat floor to gain access? The fact that the missing rivets are towards the bottom might give you enough room for the puller. You might even be able to extend the mandrel with a bushing, gaining a little additional working angle.

I'm just going from the drawing and don't have an accurate grasp on the geometry, so I could be wrong. Anyway, I thought I'd share my thoughts.

Regards,

Rafael
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Whatever you decide to do, take your time. Sometimes you need to do something else while the mind dwells. There is an answer.
 
I have one of them, have used it a lot on my 12. It won't work on this because of the large arc the handle makes to grab a bite of rivet. It is my rivet puller of choice and would advise anyone building to obtain one.
 
Don,

Have you tried first putting the rivet in the tool and then putting the rivet in the hole while still attached to the tool?

Cheers,

Rafael
 
Yep, got some of them in that way too. Problem is that I cannot get the handle moved enough after doing that to pull the mandrel.

woodsideraff said:
Don,

Have you tried first putting the rivet in the tool and then putting the rivet in the hole while still attached to the tool?

Cheers,

Rafael
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I guess you could always tap some threads on to a blind rivet shaft, put a spacer over the shank and use a nut to tighten down and pull the rivet. You could bond the rivet in with jb weld before screwing down the nut to help hold it in place.
Just a wild idea. Don't know if it would work, but it probably would.
Good luck.
 
Close quarter rivet pulling tool

I guess you could always tap some threads on to a blind rivet shaft, put a spacer over the shank and use a nut to tighten down and pull the rivet.
Click to expand...
That gives me an idea. Cut a piece of 1/4" threaded rod slightly shorter than the rivet mandrel length. Drill a hole through the threaded rod from end to end, making it into a threaded sleeve. Put a nut onto it along with a spacer. This becomes a new tool to be used on all 5 or more rivets. Slide this new tool onto a rivet mandrel. Drill a 1/16" hole in a piece of scrap steel. Put the rivet mandrel into the 1/16" hole and weld it in place. Turn the nut. The nut pushes the spacer and the spacer pushes the scrap steel and pops the rivet.
If the threaded sleeve turns, it will have to be held. Another nut can be welded to the sleeve and held with a second wrench.
I can visualize it but my description might be as clear as mud. :D
Joe Gores
 
Great minds DO think alike. I just came in from having the same brainstorm. Got to work out some small details yet. I tore apart a rivet puller trying to adapt it to use, and as it evolved, the hollow threaded rod came to me. It then evolved from welding the mandrel to something to just bending the mandrel 90 degrees for a stop. Got to decide if I want the spacer sleeve against the rivet or against the other end.
I will get with you later about the patent details we will share:D
 
I had missed 4 or 5 rivits in what appears to be the same area. I cut the handles shorter on a old rivit puller and was able to reach through the access cut outs to get the puller on to the rivit mandrel. Then I used a pair of needle nose vise grips to slowly squeeze the shortened handles of the puller. A few cuts on my hands but it worked...

Rick.
 
Well I thought so Joe, but with only two of us dumb enough to make the mistake, maybe not. Maybe we could institute some sort of scare tactic to convince everyone they will surely make that mistake in the future.
Morsesc: I considered that too, but figured I would never be able to pull the rivet with less leverage on the handle. Under consideration is some type of threaded compression tool on the shortened handle.

Mich48041 said:
Does this mean that we are going to be rich? :D
Joe Gores
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This has been an enlightening thread that just proves what a fellow builder told me when I started my -6a "There is nothing on an RV that can't be fixed"
What a great resource we have here at VAF!!
 
I had a pile of rivet pullers, was trying them all again this morning, and got two of the rivets in ok. The al cheapo HF puller managed to put them in, I am going to try some more for the last three.
 
Thinking out loud here -- How about welding/brazing the tip of the rivet mandrel to a long piece of welding rod, then slipping that assembly into an appropriately long piece of small diameter tubing and then inserting this assembly from some accessible hole(s) with a straight shot and then using a standard rivet puller on the far end of the extended mandrel?

Sort of like a laparoscopic colonoscopy???

-- David
 
Well, worth a shot I guess, might try it.
Vans did not understand the problem at all I fear, said it would only take 20 minutes to pull the seat pan. Take a look at the problem if you want a laugh from that..
 
For those who followed this thread and gave helpful suggestions, I just wanted to publish my solution to the problem. Although I wasted far more time on this than was sensible, my final solution was fairly simple. I cut the handles off a pair of el cheapo HG pop rivet tool, drilled holes in the stub handles for long handle needle nosed pliers, and it worked very well. The reason for the cheap puller was that it has a different type latching mechanism that suits it for the purpose.
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DonFromTX said:
For those who followed this thread and gave helpful suggestions, I just wanted to publish my solution to the problem. Although I wasted far more time on this than was sensible, my final solution was fairly simple. I cut the handles off a pair of el cheapo HG pop rivet tool, drilled holes in the stub handles for long handle needle nosed pliers, and it worked very well. The reason for the cheap puller was that it has a different type latching mechanism that suits it for the purpose.
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Click to expand...

nice one Don !
you should patent that :)
 
Did it again!

Just so you don't think I swore off goofing up, try this one on for size. I was looking over my main gear legs and thought it strange that they seemed to angle too far back. Checked again, yep same lidentical numbers stamped on each one, but it looks like if I just switched sides, it would come out better. Checked the book and sure enough there is a R and L leg! With no stickers and just using the stamped numbers, this was missed. What do you think?
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Don,
What I think; is that you need to slow down.
I know it starts to get exiting at this point but....
Take a deep breath, relax, and look at the pictures on each page as you complete the work. I am pretty sure that the depiction of the gear legs makes it very obvious how the gear legs are meant to be positioned (but obvious to some, isn't always obvious to others ;))

DonFromTX said:
Just so you don't think I swore off goofing up, try this one on for size. I was looking over my main gear legs and thought it strange that they seemed to angle too far back. Checked again, yep same lidentical numbers stamped on each one, but it looks like if I just switched sides, it would come out better. Checked the book and sure enough there is a R and L leg! With no stickers and just using the stamped numbers, this was missed. What do you think?


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Click to expand...
 
Reference pic...

Correct installation:
i-Ppwnczs-M.jpg


Sorry about all these posts lately, but my wife has a kitchen remodel (her RV-12 so to speak :rolleyes:) just finishing up and I'm having to hang out at home instead of out at the airport.

Tony
 
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