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Oil consumption during break-in

Bsquared

Well Known Member
I am running a stock 390 and have been following the recommended break in.....long flights At WOT and 2500 rpm. At 6500 feet that gives me about 72% power..... well above the 65% recommended min. I am right at 20 hours and my CHTs and oil temps are good but I am still burning about a quart of oil (AeroShell 100) every 4 to 5 hours. Is this common? I have heard that it can take over 50 hrs to break in the 390. The belly is clean so not going out the crankcase vent.
 
I am right at 20 hours and my CHTs and oil temps are good but I am still burning about a quart of oil (AeroShell 100) every 4 to 5 hours. .

Honestly, this is not so good. I would have suggested flying lower, to get higher MP and also better cooling. Are you keeping the oil level topped? Try keeping it at, say, 2 or 3 qts below max, see if things improve. Some engines just like to throw out the top 2 qts or so. But otherwise, grit your teeth and prepare yourself for a re-hone.
 
As a point of reference, I burnt about 1 qt for every 7-8 hours and I keep it at 7 qt and add a qt when it goes down to 6.
 
oil

I am breaking in my IO-540. Just did the first oil change. Used about 2 quarts in 10.5 hours. Engine manufacturer said this was within reason. Oil temps right around 190. Power used around 65%+.
 
I my opinion (one that has been built from talking with many of the noted engine experts in the industry), 65% is way to low to seat rings - you really want to get the power as high as you can - 80% is what I shoot for (successfully). It is very problematic breaking in engines here with a field elevation of 4400’ in the summer - almost impossible to get high enough power levels.

You want high power and as good of cooling as you can get to avoid glazing the cylinder walls. I am with Bob Turner (above) - you might well be glazed at this point.

Paul
 
I am at 58 hrs and stock io390 on Phillips M oil for running in and have used 1 and a half quarts for the last 14 hours. I have been running 75 percent power or better except for some testing through the 10 to 30 hour period for flight test evaluation.
I have read the lycoming recommendation that it can take 100 hrs. I am no expert but my oil usage is reducing still so don’t give up hope.
 
I too was really concerned about my oil consumption on the IO-390 A3B6 on my -14. I was going through a qt every 4 hours and running it as hard as I could the entire time in Colorado. I was running more like 2600 RPM and trying to fly as much as I could out east below 5500 which is tricky here in Denver. I would lean for best power. LOP operation didn't start until hour 40 or 50. It got to the point where I had borescoped the cylinders and even called Lycoming.

They recommended I keep running Mineral Oil past 50 hours. I ran mineral oil for 85 hours My oil consumption remained high until 50-85 hours and it was still around a qt every 5-6. I switched over to Phillips XC and am now on my second oil change and at 140 hours I can now say my oil consumption is perfectly normal. I had my dipstick at 6 qts for the start of my trip and after flying 4 hours I was a 5 3/4 the next day. I am adding 1 qt every 7-10 hours now but also generally running lop 2350ish RPM and 55-60% power.

I think this engine takes longer to break in than others. Accurate measurements should be taken before flying after the oil in the case has had the chance to collect in the sump. I keep my oil level at 6 qts.
 
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Have you already changed oil once?

What is your oil level checked before starting each day? What are you shooting for? Mine will burn more oil above 6 qts on the stick but not much lower than that.
 
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What to do?

I my opinion (one that has been built from talking with many of the noted engine experts in the industry), 65% is way to low to seat rings - you really want to get the power as high as you can - 80% is what I shoot for (successfully). It is very problematic breaking in engines here with a field elevation of 4400’ in the summer - almost impossible to get high enough power levels.

You want high power and as good of cooling as you can get to avoid glazing the cylinder walls. I am with Bob Turner (above) - you might well be glazed at this point.

Paul

I am faced with having to break in a new Lycoming 180 this spring in Denver. The last engine I broke in on my RV7 the cht’s were a big problem and I had to pull the power back just after takeoff to keep them below 430ish. MP ended up at 20 inches or less, most times.
And yes, I did everything I could to insure proper baffle sealing, engine timing, etc...
My question is, what can I do to properly break in my new engine under those conditions? I have considered trying to contact Lycoming to see if more run in time on their stand might be available. Not sure if they’ll do that.
The last thing I want to risk is the long term health of this engine.
Suggestions appreciated!
Thanks, Jim
 
I have found that the -390 likes 6 quarts and no more. If you top off to 7-8 you will see horrendous numbers as you refill constantly back to 7-8. Leave it at 6 and it will last much, much longer before it goes down to say 5 qts. This is of course after actual break in is completed.
 
Thank you to the actual IO 390 operators who responded. Between your stories and what I heard from Lycoming I am not concerned. The other reason I feel good is that my oil temp is rock solid at 180 and never goes above 190 even in a 100 kt climb and my CHTs are in the 330-340 range.
 
Chris,

How many hours per quart are you getting keeping it at 6? I’m on my first normal oil fill and just a tad over 6 quarts so I won’t add any.

I'm in the 10++hrs per qt range. Running Phillips XC 20W50 and total engine time about 150hrs.
 
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I add a quart at 6 and it seems to go 12-15 hours between quarts. I had a seep at the dipstick gasket fixed by switching to a better seal and making it very snug but not over tight. Even with the seep the consumption was similar. I don’t know when the current usage started. I’m at 150 hrs and changed oil last at 135. Added a quart two hours ago but it wasn’t at 7 after the filter filled last change.
 
I am faced with having to break in a new Lycoming 180 this spring in Denver. The last engine I broke in on my RV7 the cht’s were a big problem and I had to pull the power back just after takeoff to keep them below 430ish. MP ended up at 20 inches or less, most times.
And yes, I did everything I could to insure proper baffle sealing, engine timing, etc...
My question is, what can I do to properly break in my new engine under those conditions? I have considered trying to contact Lycoming to see if more run in time on their stand might be available. Not sure if they’ll do that.
The last thing I want to risk is the long term health of this engine.
Suggestions appreciated!
Thanks, Jim

More time on the run-in stand is a good thing to negotiate if you can - I have found that a couple hours pretty much breaks in a standard Nitrided Lycoming cylinder. Also make sure you have the airplane as slick as possible to get maximum cooling - wheel pants, fairings all complete.

Paul
 
3-4hrs per qt on 540, until

we switched to Phillips X/C after about 50 hrs -- took another 25 hrs to get everything back to "normal". (Ni cylinders) Started the -6As new Ni cylinders on the Phillips X/C and everything settled down to 1qt ever 12-14hrs. (1qt between changes)

Ron
 
I have found that a couple hours pretty much breaks in a standard Nitrided Lycoming cylinder.

During my first hour of operation on my stock factory new 390 I watched my CHTs drop one after the other by about 25 deg. The Savvy Analysis data confirmed it. I think I saw my initial break-in happening real time. CHTs have been stabile since then.
 
Oil

Rebuilt my o320 with Superior parts mostly. First 10 hours mineral oil, added 8 quarts initially. Only put in 1 quart additionally. Changed oil again after 25 more hours to Phillips 20-50 Have not used any significant amount yet. The oil stick shows just a little over 6 quarts. I never went higher than 80% rpm and kept the egt’s below 400. Also changed the power setting every 20 minutes while breaking in.
 
I calibrated my dip stick with marks at the 4,5 and 6 qt level. I check level cold before flight. I run below 5 for local flights. qt/15 hr. break it in HARD.
IMG-3138.jpg
 
I am running a stock 390 and have been following the recommended break in.....long flights At WOT and 2500 rpm. At 6500 feet that gives me about 72% power..... well above the 65% recommended min. I am right at 20 hours and my CHTs and oil temps are good but I am still burning about a quart of oil (AeroShell 100) every 4 to 5 hours. Is this common? I have heard that it can take over 50 hrs to break in the 390. The belly is clean so not going out the crankcase vent.

Curious - what CHT temp did the break in log at Lycoming record on the 15 min run at rated power?

Michael
 
15 min full power run CHT is recorded as 374. I assume this was the highest Cylinder

Thanks. I'm involved with an IO-390 (not in an RV) that is in a similar predicament. This engine is at 50 hours and still consuming oil (~1 qt every 3 to 4 hours. Lycoming said the same thing. Continue running mineral oil and monitor consumption. Max CHT on this engine on the factory run in was 299, which seems low. We've been running it as recommended. Oil is pooling in cylinders and seems like the cylinders are glazed. Will see what happens. Figured it would be run in by now.
 
Lycoming run in

More time on the run-in stand is a good thing to negotiate if you can - I have found that a couple hours pretty much breaks in a standard Nitrided Lycoming cylinder. Also make sure you have the airplane as slick as possible to get maximum cooling - wheel pants, fairings all complete.

Paul

Thanks Paul, all good advise. After contacting Lycoming directly, I won’t be able to add any test stand time. I was told that they don’t usually offer that option. Curiously, they also said that test stand CHTs routinely hit 450, at least on the 360 series of Lycoming.
After speaking to both the sales rep and the tech rep, I am pretty much left with proceeding with early morning flights, WOT, 2500 rpm and don’t throttle back unless CHTs exceed 450. They seem confident that I won’t have any problems.
I don’t mean to highjack the thread, but just wanted to post in case anyone was wondering about buying run in time from Lycoming.
Thanks, Jim
 
Just another current data point, I changed oil in Dec at 125.5 tach time and have added 1qt since then at 143.0 tach time so about a qt per 18hrs now. Oil consumption gradually has decreased since new and I think is pretty steady now. I fill to 6qts and add once it gets to 5. This is a Thunderbolt IO390.
 
I have found that the -390 likes 6 quarts and no more. If you top off to 7-8 you will see horrendous numbers as you refill constantly back to 7-8. Leave it at 6 and it will last much, much longer before it goes down to say 5 qts. This is of course after actual break in is completed.

+1 on this post. I refill with 6 quarts and a new filter, and then wait to add a quart when the dipstick shows 5. With 721 hours on the 390, I average about a quart every 10 hours. I'm in Colorado and did my initial flying as low as I could safely fly at full throttle and 2600 RPM. CHTs were around 420 on the first couple of flights but then started dropping. In cruise flight these days here in the high west, I see CHTs in the low 300s running WOT, 2400 RPM, 8 GPH and 160 knots TAS.
 
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My 390 in the 14A is a little better on the oil level. I fill it to 7 and it goes 15-20 hours before it hits six and adding a quart. Not sure why it hangs in there so well since some engines just can't keep the level up. My arrow was terrible; would dump to 6 no matter what you did, then sit at six a long time.
 
Also make sure you have the airplane as slick as possible to get maximum cooling - wheel pants, fairings all complete.

Paul

I am confused on this one as it directly goes against what is in my RV-10 build manual. I quote from the manual....

"When engine break in is a concern, perform flight testing without the wheel fairings and gear leg fairings. This will add around 15% to the airframe drag and thus cause higher engine temperatures at any given forward speed. Higher cylinder head temperatures, within limits, are necessary for seating piston rings (breaking in)."

So what should I do here as this is my predicament? Thanks Paul

(I need to update my profile as Im much further along now. Started engine yesterday)
 
My method of several short grounds runs of 5 minutes and ~1000 rpm, not to exceed 300 CHT, with complete cooldowns, works without fail. Just changed oil last night on a 540 in a Cherokee 6 I just overhauled. Zero oil consumption in the first 5 hours of flight. Cerminil cylinders. All compressions were 79/80.

Running an engine hard and at high temps is counterproductive.
 
My method of several short grounds runs of 5 minutes and ~1000 rpm, not to exceed 300 CHT, with complete cooldowns, works without fail. Just changed oil last night on a 540 in a Cherokee 6 I just overhauled. Zero oil consumption in the first 5 hours of flight. Cerminil cylinders. All compressions were 79/80.

Running an engine hard and at high temps is counterproductive.

So what you are saying is Van is wrong and you broke in your engine with some 5 minute runs at 1000 rpm, and keeping lower than 300 degrees and five hours of flight? Amazing, but I probably will not use this method as Lycoming says run it hard, Van says run it hard. I have the engine prop combo Van recommends for the -10. YIO-540-D4A5 and Hartzell 2 blade. Thanks for the reply and I respect your qualifications in your signature but now Im extra confused.
 
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So what you are saying is Van is wrong and you broke in your engine with some 5 minute runs at 1000 rpm, and keeping lower than 300 degrees and five hours of flight? Amazing, but I probably will not use this method as Lycoming says run it hard, Van says run it hard. I have the engine prop combo Van recommends for the -10. YIO-540-DA45 and Hartzell 2 blade. Thanks for the reply and I respect your qualifications in your signature but now Im extra confused.

The normal way of breaking in an engine is wrong and dumb. Getting cylinder walls hot causes the oil to oxidize and glazes them. You don't have to use my method, but this is the way I do them and it works 100% of the time. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make the horse drink the water.
 
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Huh?

I’m no expert but rocketbob's method goes against everything I’ve read about engine break in. Nothing personal but it sounds like a great way to glaze your cylinders.

I broke in my XP-400 and then my replacement engine, an IO-390X the same way. I left all intersection/wheel fairings off to provide drag so I could fly at wide open throttle.

For first flight:

1. Start the engine and do a quick preflight run-up - prop check not more than 100 RPM drop.
2. Do a full power takeoff.
3. Monitor engine RPM, fuel flow, oil pressure, oil temperature - note cylinder head temperature during takeoff.
4. Do a shallow climb angle to a 5,000' cruise altitude.
5. After 10 minutes, decrease the engine speed to 2500 RPM.
6. Adjust the mixture to maintain CHT as noted on takeoff.
7. At cruise altitude, decrease power to approximately 75% & 2400 RPM and continue flight for 30 minutes.
8. Land, remove cowling and check for leaks and any abnormalities.

After first flight I flew the next 5 hours at wide open throttle and varied RPM periodically. I pretty much hauled *** around and practiced instrument approaches in VMC testing/learning how to use my autopilot and navigator. I saved all the other testing until the engine had some good hard running. I never really burned any oil and CHTS never got very hot. This was in Oregon in July with an OAT of 85 degrees.

Here are some numbers from the XP-400
 

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Bob, earlier you mentioned cerminil cylinders.

Is your method specific to them, or any cylinders?
 
Bob, earlier you mentioned cerminil cylinders.

Is your method specific to them, or any cylinders?

No. I use my method all cylinders, nitrided or overhauled. Next door neighbor's O-320-H2AD on his Starduster I overhauled two years ago. He adds no oil in-between oil changes. They were used and overhauled steel cylinders.

I have several theories why it works well.

I got the idea of using this method of low-heat, very short run breakin method from a gentleman who worked in an European auto manufacturer's engine breakin cell where he explained their engines were ran in with a large electric motor driving the engine with no fuel or spark.
 
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Like I said...

Tell us how you know.

I’m no expert and gleaned my method from reading John Deakin, Mike Bush and Lycoming books and documents. I also had numerous discussions with all the A&Ps at Synergy air in Eugene and Gary Brown, the DAR who did my inspection. You’re an IA and I am not. With all due respect, I’m not saying you are wrong, I’ve just never heard of your technique is all.
 
I took a look at my automated engine test log that came with my factory YIO-360 M1B, and here are some highlights.
Looks like they ran it a total of 1:01 hrs. Started at low rpm and kept bumping it up eventually reaching 2200 rpm in 5 or 10 min increments, followed by a full power run for 15 min where CHT peaked at 431. Cool down at idle 4 min and that was it.
I probably put 15 min. ground/taxi time on the engine before first flight and flew around at modest and varying power settings keeping CHT under 400. Phillips mineral for 50 hrs then X-C Liberty. It is burning a qt every 20-25 hrs.
 
Tell us how you know.

This is actually a very good question. Like others, I too have never heard of this technique but I find the thought interesting.

After all, if high power and hence high pressure are required to seat rings and overcome possible oil glazing because of high heat, is it possible that just the opposite might work better? Could just the mechanical scraping of rings against cylinder walls in a cool environment accomplish the same thing? If I had a spare engine available to test, I'd try it. I don't know anyone who has ever tested this.

Prevailing wisdom sometimes isn't. I'm reminded of a single NASA engineer who long ago stood alone in saying it was too cold to launch the space shuttle Challenger. And many thought nothing was wrong with V-tail Bonanzas until a cuff was developed to solve its breakup problem.
 
Or

Or, you can abide by the engine builder’s recommendation...

Why?

...because he’s the one providing the warranty...
 
IO-390 (Not the exp) Thunderbolt

My experience was almost from the beginning experienced normal CHT's and EGT's and kept at 75% power. From 0 to 40 hrs. burned 5 to 6 hours per qt. W100. 40 - 80 hours 6 to 7 hours per qt also W100. Since it appeared it was broken(?) in 80 - 120 hours 6.5 to 7.5 hours per qt now W100 plus. 120 - 200 hours 8.5 to 10 hours per qt. W100 plus. I am still hoping to see improvement. Also lowered my min. to 5 qts. and topped off the 6. During that time. I am now evaluating running it down to 4 qts. (calibrated) topping to 5 qts. I was told that this is what Vans was doing. Nothing on the bottom of the airframe. I'm hearing oil usage all over the place for the 390. Is it possible this engine takes 200 hours to fully break in or is it the running conditions that are throwing us off? I've seen documentation that someone burned almost a qt in the 90-knot conga line after a short trip and wait in line. I just returned and put 12 hours on the airframe was in the 45-minute conga line and one qt oil. At 200 hours just ordered a portable O2 system and will not be able to spend much time above 50% power.
 
What is the sump capacity, and how much are you putting in??

Lyc's like to run a bit less than capacity from my experience.
 
IO390 Capacity

Full is 6 qts on the IO-390 or at least mine. I've heard you can run them down to 3 but I would not try this........
 
Full is 6 qts on the IO-390 or at least mine. I've heard you can run them down to 3 but I would not try this........

I am not sure if this is correct. The standard IO-390 max capacity is 8 qt and IO-390-EXP119 is 7 QT Max. The absolute minimum for the EXP119 is 3.5 QT based on the info I have got directly from Lycoming.
 
What works for me

In my experimental version of the IO-390, I've played with different oil levels over the years.

What I have settled on is when I change oil and filter, I put in 6 quarts. After a ground engine run and waiting overnight, the oil level is about 5.3. I then let run down to 5 and add a quart. So my oil level is always between 5 and 6. I routinely get 11 to 12 hours per quart and still am after nearly 1000 hours on the factory new engine.
 
I'm at 71 hrs after my first oil change following break-in of my IO-390 with mineral oil and ran the oil consumption numbers yesterday. Came out to 0.08 qts/hr.
 
You are most likely correct

Mehrdad, I am not sure if this is correct. The standard IO-390 max capacity is 8 qt and IO-390-EXP119 is 7 QT Max. The absolute minimum for the EXP119 is 3.5 QT based on the info I have got directly from Lycoming.
_______

I stopped calibrating mine to 6 qts but there is room to increase the fill. I do hear of some rather low hrs. per qt numbers for this engine and seems like users tried at least to break it in hard. I went with the run it down to 5 qts for a long time and add a qt routine. Searching for better numbers slowly brought that down to 4 and add a qt. There does seem to be something different about the way this engine gets broken in. Performance is great as I regularly get 173 to 175 knots TAS at 10,000 ft. 9.8 GPH. Time as always will tell.
 
Oil type

Still searching for an oil that might use less per hour. Have been using W100 plus for the last 100 hours after using W100 for the first 125. It seems that those who switched to Phillips x/c 20w50 have seen some improvements in oil consumption? I've been running the 5 fill to 6 method and even tried the 4 fill to 5 for 25 hours and no change. The 4 fill to 5 made me a little nervous so after seeing no change went back to 5 fill to 6. I'm also now a little concerned about seeing on VAF the sticky valve issues or dark "something" on the cylinder heads. I'm still at the 8 hours +/- range per quart. The bottom of the airframe is spotless and very little if any soot in the twin exhausts. Any input?
 
Still searching for an oil that might use less per hour. Have been using W100 plus for the last 100 hours after using W100 for the first 125. It seems that those who switched to Phillips x/c 20w50 have seen some improvements in oil consumption? I've been running the 5 fill to 6 method and even tried the 4 fill to 5 for 25 hours and no change. The 4 fill to 5 made me a little nervous so after seeing no change went back to 5 fill to 6. I'm also now a little concerned about seeing on VAF the sticky valve issues or dark "something" on the cylinder heads. I'm still at the 8 hours +/- range per quart. The bottom of the airframe is spotless and very little if any soot in the twin exhausts. Any input?

I have 110 hours on my 390 NON-EXP running Phillips 20W50. I run between 4.5 and 5.5 quarts. I mention it is a non-exp as it has a different size sump than an EXP. I ran W100 for the first 75 hours. I noticed not only a decrease in consumption but also oil temp when switching to 20W50. Nearest I can estimate I am running 9 +/- hours per quart. I am happy with this. The 390's consumption seems to be higher than other Lycomings. If your not having any other issues I would not worry about it.
 
I'm still at the 8 hours +/- range per quart. The bottom of the airframe is spotless and very little if any soot in the twin exhausts. Any input?

~67 hrs on mineral oil, then AeroShell W15W50 since (~120hrs total) on my IO-390 non-EXP119, and my oil consumption is similar to Glenn's. About 9hr/qt, but depends on the mission. Long trips it is better (~10hr/qt on a recent long trip), but with light acro, it has been worse (~7-8hr/qt). From what I can tell, my overall consumption rate is fine. I also do not have any major oil on my aircraft's belly, compressions were high 70s, and borescoping cylinders was uneventful.

_Alex
 
Thanks,

Mine is also a 210 hp version. I guess I am a little oil envious when I read about users only needing to add a qt between oil changes. The 390 users I know first-hand nobody gets over 10 hours a qt. Before I switch to 20-50 wanted to get some input. I'm in central Florida and keep my airframe in a warm hangar so did not think I needed a multi weight. At 260 hours engine runs great. Fly safe and enjoy!!!
 
Before I switch to 20-50 wanted to get some input. I'm in central Florida and keep my airframe in a warm hangar so did not think I needed a multi weight.

I would argue it is not really about need. Find me a maker of reciprocating gas engines today that recommends anything other than multi-vis oil. Lawn mower engines excluded. Many benefits to be had. In hte last 20 years we have seen the move from 10w30 or 10w40 to 5w30 or 0w40, as it has helped the OEMs to improve gas mileage and shorten warm up cycles (emission benefit)

Even Lycoming recommends it. Taken from Lyc SI:

Multigrade oils contain additives in order for the oil to maintain its viscosity
through a broader range of operating temperatures than straight weight oils.
The additives in multigrade oil extend operating temperature range, improve cold-weather starting, and provide superior lubrication
of the engine during the critical warm-up period
. Multigrade oil allows flight through wider ranges of
climatic changes without the need to change oil.

Larry
 
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PHILLIPS 66 VICTORY AVIATION OIL 20W-50

The purpose of digging up this older thread is to possibly get an update on oil usage on the IO-390 A3B6. Now with users obtaining more hours or new users data. Also wanted to add my observation going from AEROSHELL W100 PLUS to PHILLIPS 66 VICTORY AVIATION OIL 20W-50. I'd been hanging in with the Aeroshell product as it was a little cheaper but more important Mike Busch was recommending especially for warmer climate conditions. My oil usage almost from the very beginning was a steady 5 to 6 hours per qt. I never saw the 20 to 30 degrees drop in CHT even actively monitoring the SD card data via Savoy. Around 100 hours switched from W100 to W100 plus. Ran that till 400 hours and saw oil usage slow reduce to 8 to 9 hours a qt. At 25 hours the oil would appear very dark, and I would change it with a new filter every other oil change. At 400 hours switched to the Phillips product. What was almost immediately noticeable was the color of the oil even at 30 hours was considerably lighter than the Aeroshell product and now the oil usage has popped up to a qt every 11 to 12 hours. I fly a very similar flight profile almost every week and don't believe that is the difference. There have been comments about less oil usage with the Phillips product, but I've not read anything on the color difference. Any input?
 
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