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How many of you guys with IFR certified RVs use the capability?

Do you use the IFR capability of your RV?

  • YES (file IFR)

    Votes: 241 73.0%
  • NO

    Votes: 89 27.0%

  • Total voters
    330

AX-O

Well Known Member
When I first started my aircraft, I wanted a fully IFR bird. 2 radios (Nav/Com), VOR/LOC/Glide slope, GPS unit, EFIS, electronic engine monitoring, the works. My wings will be finished soon and I have been thinking about my ?mission?. I don?t know if a fully IFR bird is required any more. I am starting to lean towards the ?build it light and simple and get it in the air?.

So, if you have an IFR certified RV, could you tell me if you use the capability or not?
 
AX, I'm in almost exactly the same place right now, and have been thinking exactly the same thing. I don't have an IFR rating, but want to get one. But making my plane fully IFR will add considerable cost to the project, and some time. Assuming I probably won't get aroudn to any IFR training in the first year of flying it anyway, now wondering if I would be better to build it VFR with a modular panel, pre-wiring and whatever else to make upgrading to IFR later much easier.

Would appreciate any tips on how to build the panel for rapid and easy upgradeability.
 
AX-O said:
So, if you have an IFR certified RV, could you tell me if you use the capability or not?
I'm building a RV-10 and am quite aways from completion. My plans are to build it for IFR use. I do hold an IFR rating.

I tend not to fly hard IFR, but this past year since getting the rating, it sure has come in handy. No more scud running below the clouds. Just pop up on top, then back down at the destination.
 
I prewired

My 7a for IFR...Bought the trays but did not buy the audio panel or the GNS430.

Flew off the 40 hours, Purchased the audio and 430 and started IFR training.

Got my ticket back at Spring Break.

File IFR for almost every cross country since. In Oregen its just usually a lot easier to file becuse you have to cross mountains a lot of the time and clouds are a fact of life, even in Summer.

So my ticket has allowed me to make fligths even though its pretty rare for me to do approaches. Add to that, Class B airspace and TFRs become almost irrelavent.

But Winter is coming and that will be a different sory.

Frank 7a
 
I'd be curious to know the group's opinion. I'm planning to build or buy (and, if necessary, retrofit) an IFR RV, but am just beginning my IFR training. Since it adds significant cost (and some weight), my question is whether it will be that useful? I'm not sure that I will know until I've gotten my ticket and have flown IFR for a few years.

TODR
 
Just to clarify. I have my IFR ticket. So I don?t need to fly my RV to obtain the ticket. I just want to know how many people actually use their IFR instruments while flying their RV.
 
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the_other_dougreeves said:
I'd be curious to know the group's opinion. I'm planning to build or buy (and, if necessary, retrofit) an IFR RV, but am just beginning my IFR training. Since it adds significant cost (and some weight), my question is whether it will be that useful? I'm not sure that I will know until I've gotten my ticket and have flown IFR for a few years.

TODR

Depends a lot on where you mostly fly and your trip leg lengths. Live in AZ? probably not worth it. On the other hand, I got my ticket specifically because I lived in ME and I had to cancel quite a few flights because of ceilings when I did not have it.

Also, flying trips of 200-400 NM East of the Mississipi can easily take you through patches that are IMC. The ticket and the equipment can the difference between having to cancel or delay, or not.

Also makes airspace management much simpler. Example, NC and SC are full of MOAs and restricted areas. File IFR and ATC coordinates clearance through these areas.
 
Another option

the_other_dougreeves said:
I'd be curious to know the group's opinion. I'm planning to build or buy (and, if necessary, retrofit) an IFR RV, but am just beginning my IFR training. Since it adds significant cost (and some weight), my question is whether it will be that useful? I'm not sure that I will know until I've gotten my ticket and have flown IFR for a few years.

TODR

Like I did, buy the RV and do your training in that...Will save considerable dollars and that will be the airplane you fly anyway.

RV's are a handful but not impossible to learn instruments in...Just pull the power to 20"MP and 2400RPM (LOP) and it will plonk along at 100kts which is slow enough to give you thinking time but will also allow you to climb like a 152.

MY CFII..One day decided to "show me how to do it"..What a laugh he asked for 25"mp and I gave it to him (left hand throttle) ROP to boot....Well he got vectored all over creation while they tried to fit him in with all the other Cessnas and lets say his control of the airplane could have been better.

When he gave it back to me he said..."your right, this thing is a handful"....Aww shucks, and he just thought I couldn't fly worth a darn...:)

He'll be much better than me when he gets his 7a flying though I'm sure!

Frank
 
Just do it!

I built my 9A for IFR. Got the IFR rating while building. Finished in Mar. 07 and have used it about 5 times already. Each time I would have had to cancel or delay a flight, including coming back from OshKosh to Washington state this year.

I would not be without the capability.
 
Axel,

It's all a matter of what you want to do. Light/Simple and IFR AREN'T mutually exclusive. A single GNS480 is all you really need for IFR, a two axis autopilot and a simple EFIS or EFIS/steam gauge combo. You now have an simple, light, effective IFR machine. Dual VOR's aren't required due to GPS and the monitor functions built into the VOR of the GNS480.
 
instruments

got my i.r. in 1982. fly a fair amount of x/c -- always file. frequently i could have gone vfr, but ifr is so much "easier" -- automatic clearances through much airspace, and if it's not convective, no problems flying through just about any weather.

weekend before last i started on a trip from aus to gtr -- about 500 nm. (should say this is in a 'spam can' - pa28r-201t, 'cuz my 7a isn't finished yet.) on account of passengers, i broke it up into 2 legs -- aus-mlu, mlu-gtr. about 50 short of mlu my vacuum pump quit. landed at mlu. got the name of an a&p who would come out. called him. he said the "call-out charge" was $300, just to see if he had a pump in stock. i said "thanks, but no thanks." completed the trip vfr (including return.) i have to say i was much more nervous about the weather (would it remain vfr to allow me to complete the trip?) it did, but essentially it took me back to 25 years ago, when that was the anxiety i felt on every trip.

my 7a will be ifr capable. it gives you so many more options. and in my case it reduces the anxiety.

my opinion only. you're entitled to yours. :)

john
 
AZ pilot perspective

Hi,

I'm an AZ pilot and IFR is pretty hard to come by here. When it's IFR you pretty much don't want to be flying as it is often severely convective.

That said, I'm building my -7 IFR for several reasons:

1. I want to get my IFR ticket in my plane. I believe it will make me a better pilot to not only get it, but to maintain it. I also believe that IFR flying will be very satisfying. For the same reasoning I will also pursue formation flying.

2. I want to be able to regularly fly to CA, OR, LA (as in Louisiana) and pretty much any other destination, and have more options when planning. I consider punching up and down through layers to fly VFR on top, shooting mostly visual approaches below the layer, and little or no enroute IFR, as "light" IFR. I know a lot of folks hate the term, but it is useful and descriptive to me and to each their own.

3. Equipping a plane for "light" IFR is not a whole bunch more than for Night VFR. If I weren't going to fly any IFR nor any Night VFR I wouldn't even put in an AI; airspeed, altimeter, and a VFR GPS are plenty. But once you're into an EFIS for an AI for Night VFR, the rest is not too hard to justify. VOR and VFR GPS means a little less capability, but a lot less money both up front and for database subscriptions.

George
 
Build it light vs. IFR? Only you can answer that question. The easiest place to start is to define the mission for the aircraft. Will it be used for long cross country flights, or just local? With the speed of an RV, long cross countries are possible. It?s hard to fly from coat to coast and not run into weather. If that will be your mission, then IFR capability should be considered. If you intend to use the aircraft locally, then IFR would probably be a waste of time, money and useful load.

September 27, 2007 will mark the tenth anniversary of N506RV?s first flight. The aircraft was initially built with a VFR panel. About five years ago, the panel was upgraded for IFR capability. I do not regret this upgrade at all. My main use of the aircraft is rapid, cross country, transportation. IFR capability provides me options that I didn?t have before. When I was VFR only, the weather was always a concern on long trips. Each 3+ day trip always had the question of, ?Will I be able to get home.? Those concerns are now basically gone. Since the upgrade, I?ve only been stuck for a single overnight. A 400+ nm convective line basically shut down the Northeast.

The catalyst to the IFR upgrade was getting stuck in Madison, WI for 13 days (wx plus work schedules), followed by a special VFR clearance out of their airspace. Every year since upgrading, I?ve completed trips IFR that would otherwise be cancelled.

IFR capability does not have to cost big $$$. A panel mounted GPS would be nice, but you also incur the annual database costs. I?m quite happy with a single SL-30, six pack, basic transponder and dual axis autopilot. These are backed up with a handheld GPS and handheld nav/com. If you go the single radio/ handheld backup, make sure that you get the alkaline battery pack for the handheld and change the batteries every three years.
 
frankh said:
I bet it won't have a vacuum pump either?...:)

Frank

you're right about that!!!! :)

this was my sixth in-flight vacuum pump failure. four were in imc. i nearly killed myself (and my family) on the first one, after some remedial training in my "areas of deficciency", i got a little better on handling them. this one was in vmc, though, and was basically a no-brainer.
 
Example of simple IFR:

Picture2.jpg
 
I started my IFR training in my 172. Built the required time and passed the written test. I got very busy finishing my 7A and installed a full IFR panel. 430,
EFIS, turn/bank etc... I just sold my my 172 that I was going to do my check ride in.
I am now flying my 7A and have worked all the bugs out as far as the panel goes and need to get it certified. Not to sure what is involved. Help?
Is there examiners that are willing to do check rides in an experimental?
 
AX-O said:
So, if you have an IFR certified RV, could you tell me if you use the capability or not?
I *hardly ever* use the IFR capability of my RV-7. That said, I used it twice this past weekend. Just to pop up and then again to pop down. Almost always for work travel and almost never for fun travel.

If I lived where you do, and if I didn't fly IFR for work travel, I definitely wouldn't bother! I'd put that $ into fun flying!

It's a slippery slope, man.
 
I've flown IFR for 30+ years. At it's most basic level, flying IFR is all about flying a heading and an altitude. Add a comm and appropriate nav radio to the required instruments and you're in business. I do it with a Blue Mountain EFIS Lite, an SL-30 and a 320a transponder.

I supplement those with a handheld GPS and a TruTrak ADI Pilot I. I file as an RV7/U and regularly fly in the area from Chicago to HPN and down to Washington DC. The DC ADIZ is very easy to fly into and out of IFR without all the angst of potentially screwing up if you're VFR and getting violated. If you sound to ATC like you know what you're doing, and hopefully you actually do, ATC will give you much of what you want if there aren't any traffic conflicts.

I have less than $10,000 in my panel and use the capability on most every flight. More money gives more capability. Just make sure your learn how to use all the equipment well.

Mike
 
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osxuser said:
Example of simple IFR:

Picture2.jpg
I like it - clean, simple. Close to what I was thinking of if I were to pick up a -4 and equip it for occasional IFR (IFR in a -4 was not exactly what Van had in mind, but it would work).

However, it looks to be about $12k over a glass panel VFR setup (single AFS3400 EFIS+EMS, G396, SL40). Thus I want to be sure I want to fly IFR...

TODR
 
That setup is actually more money than that (GNS480, Sorcorer autopilot, EFIS+EMS)

The EFIS is optional, but makes the install cleaner. The real simple IFR maker is the GNS480 and some 2 axis autopilot. More money than a SL40, but I wouldn't consider flying an airplane that has NO vor for even vfr night operations, so a $2000 more SL30 would be a requirement for me plus the $1000 CDI. The EFIS incorporates the CDI, the GNS480 is effectively 2 comms 2 navs, single GPS (WAAS), and controls the transponder remotely.

Backup instruments optional, choose whichever efis you like (Dynon being the econmical choice I think). I like Blue Mountain stuff myself, but when I'm at Osh next year I'll look at all of them closer. Dollar for dollar, I don't think the EFIS would cost much more than comparable electric gyros...
 
IFR rating

Axel,

I have the rating but no airplane capable of IFR. It is a lot of work to keep current. I think if I had built my 8 with the equipment I would use it.
 
osxuser said:
The EFIS is optional, but makes the install cleaner. The real simple IFR maker is the GNS480 and some 2 axis autopilot. ...

Backup instruments optional, choose whichever efis you like (Dynon being the econmical choice I think). I like Blue Mountain stuff myself, but when I'm at Osh next year I'll look at all of them closer. Dollar for dollar, I don't think the EFIS would cost much more than comparable electric gyros...

I agree - EFIS is cleaner, simpler install, has a built-in backup battery and is cheaper when you factor in a CDI (plus you get a HSI).

I was planning on a 2-axis AP for IFR use - I can't imagine flying IFR without it. I'm not sure how useful it is having it coupled to the NAV / GPS for flying approaches or holds, but it at least sounds cool. ;)

TODR
 
rvmike said:
I fly my 6A Ifr in in socal mostly to get over or under the marine layer. I have done hard IfR several times but without an autopilot or someone in the right seat to work the radios is tough. Steam gauges with a SL30 & SL60 & map 360.

Mike
This is a good follow-up question: for those of you flying IFR in a 3, 4, 6, 7, or 8: are you doing it with an autopilot? Would you do it without an autopilot? I exclude the 9 and 10 from that question simply because I assume, perhaps naively, that they are somewhat more stable as an IFR platform.
 
i owned and flew a lancair legacy for 2 years. i had a garmin 430/sl30 combo coupled to a trutrack autopilot. throw in a 396 for weather and 6-pack backup and you are set. i would be very careful to backup these experimental EFIS's. the low-cost AHARS they are using have been known to be troublesome at times so having a good standard ADI/Airspeed/Altitude combo is in my book a necessity until they are proven rock-solid (my experience - not to disparage any particular EFIS maker)
 
Flying IFR without Autopilot

Before I had my RV-10 flying I flew an RV-6A for over 300 hours, the first 100 hours without a 2 axis autopilot. Although IFR equipted when I bought the RV-6A I would fly it IFR unless I had an IFR qualified pilot in the right seat because without an 2 axis autopilot it created way too much stress just doing IFR practice under the hood with a safety pilot.

After installing the 2 axis autopilot I flew the RV-6A IFR on a pretty regular (for me) basis. While I much prefer VFR flying in ether my RV-6A (sold) or my RV-10 (160+ hours) I wouldn't own an RV without a 2 axis autopilot.
 
I am a 9A driver. Although 9 is a more stable IFR platform I still prefer to have my AP on while flying IFR. As a matter of fact I use AP for my VFR cross country too. I don't have a stady hand. Whenever I check the approach plate, tune the radio, etc., I have a tendency of moving the stick. In the past year I had about 4 hours in IMC and did 18 approaches, most of them with AP on. It is just too stressful without a co-pilot/AP.
 
Our -6 is certified and my pops and I are both hold "current" IFR tickets, we do not fly the 6 in IFR too much..

I have filed and flown IFR on a cross country when I knew the weather was going to be decent at the destination, I would not blast off in this bird with a destination that was calling 2 miles vis, overcast at 500 or anything along those lines..

Now, if it was something like 5 miles vis, 1500' ceilings and no ice, etc, sure why not.. I haven't done that yet with it though..
 
Axel,
I built my 6-A IFR. After I finished it, I got my IFR ticket in it. Like folks have said, it IS a handfull. However, my only regret is not getting it (IFR Ticket) sooner. It really has made me a better pilot, and really helps you look at flying much differently.

Guess it depends on what you want to use the IFR RV for. Basically I use mine for light IFR. I have been IMC for while on a couple of occasions, but not that often. I don't do ice, heavy TS, or other marginal stuff. So far it has been a great thrill.

I did install a Tru-Trak A/P after I got the IFR ticket. It really has improved the safety factor and it's really great when you need to look at a plate or map.

Unless we are traveling with friends, I always file. Just helps me stay current, and I do like being in the system.

The thing is, I really don't have to use the RV IFR, but if I want to, I do have the option.

I would say go for it.
 
Most of my flying is to go someplace

Most of my flying is to go someplace and that degenerates into a hand wringing wish process with many cancellations here in Arkansas if you are not prepared to fly IFR. We flew to New York a few weeks ago in our RV-6A with dinner reservations, show tickets, motel. car, etc. Three legs of that trip were flown IFR in IMC. Shortly after that we flew IFR in IMC to Memphis for the 100 mile air race there. I'm retired but even with this great flexibility if the weather is suitable for IFR travel I like to plan the trip and fly the plan.

Autopilot is almost essential even though I flew the first year without it . The workload was very high until I installed my Tru Trac.

Staying current is essential and the best way to do that is fly IFR on a fairly regular basis. I have a very low end system with a vacuum pump driven AI & DG, a single Terra VOR receiver, SL-60 GPS, GPS-90 backup. If the ceiling at the destination is below 1,000 ft at launch time I will wait it out pretty much regardless of the weather at an alternate. If you are current, the plane is IFR capable, and the weather is IFR flyable you are going to eventually make the decision to fly or not and the first time is tough psychologically. The only way to get your mind right for this kind of flying is to do it but you don't want do it for the first time in five months after a competency check in real IMC.

Bob Axsom
 
OK to fly IFR - with CAUTION

My RV4 was technically equipped for IFR but I never did it. I'd only advocate operating an airplane with little to nil systems redundancy in weather that's still manageable if primary systems fail. Systems I'm talking about are:

1) Propulsion
2) Electric
3) Primary Flight indications (anything in your primary flight group)

To illustrate: Lets say you're climbing in IMC with low ceilings below. Your attitude indicator fails. Yes, I know you can use needle-ball. But this actually happened to a good friend of mine - a 16000 hour professional pilot - in his 4, wife in back seat. He had to fly into VMC which took over an hour. Nobody's gonna fly an ILS on the T/B. He barely had the energy to climb out of the airplane and walk to the FBO after he landed.

How about a simple engine failure? Maybe you're even VFR on top. What's the ceiling below? If it only affords maybe 30 seconds of VMC after you break out in your glider, you may not be able to find a good place to park your bird. This scenario also got a buddy of mine. He was in a wheel chair for over a year, and took nearly 3 years to get back in the saddle.

Is it worth it? You decide.

In my humble opinion, I would operate an RV in IFR conditions, but with extreme caution. I'd have an autopilot, electrical system redundancy, attitude indication redundancy, an engine in TOP shape, and NO ice at all. I'd operate on top of no worse than 1000-3 for extended periods. Also, no IFR at night.

If the engine sucks a valve at night, for example, you better be able to select a safe landing area and that means a lit runway, interstate highway, or some obviously open area you can see. Reduced vis makes that job impossible. Don't think you're going to find a runway on your GPS either. Gliding at night, engine out, IMC, and making some sort of "approach" is just impossible. I'd bet against doing that 50:1.

Even the redundancy of twins is questionable. I had the left engine disassemble itself on a B55 Baron in VMC. Prop came apart in cruise. It was pure luck the separated blade didn't come through the fuselage, the nacelle didn't separate from the aircraft, or (worse) the nacelle didn't fail upward and over the wing. We had near full fuel, 4 pax, and about 150# of cargo that day. The flight prior the airplane did a 3 hour night flight with the owner and his family aboard. That plane was an insurance total after I landed it (wing spar damage). Think about that - some twins are essentially single engine airplanes with twice the chance of an engine failure.

Maybe I'm getting too old, or am just too used to flying hardware that's highly redundant. But believe me, I've used the redundancy more than a few times in my career and its been a God send (B707, B737, B757, B767, B777, A320, about 40 GA types and an active CFI since 1987) The FAR's will not keep you safe, they'll only allow you to crash legally.

This is one of the all-time best threads to show up on VAF, and I hope these thoughts make some of you think about the "what if" of IFR operation.

Fly Safe...
 
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IFR RV. What so many people,up here in the NW, tell you about the 15,ooo dollar IFR panel BUT fail to address is the problem over the mountains of ICE. How to keep it off the wings,prop, and keep the windshield clear. Full IFR in my RV4 and RV3 is not an option. 21 years into retirement I have not flown one minute of IFR . Approx. 1200 hrs RV time, 3 or 4 transcon trips. etc. Give it some thought guys and take care. RB
 
IFR Training worth it. IFR panel? Well...

I am just beginning to think about the panel. I am IFR rated but rarely use it up here in the NW. As Richard says above, it's nearly impossible to even keep current in the the winter months because of the the freezing levels unless you have the time to fly on the rare good days (which never seem to be the weekends!)

That said I'd like to build a light IFR panel. With a 430, AFS 3500, TruTrack AP, backup ASI/ AI/ALT instruments it coming in around 23k. I am leaning torward VFR panel and adding the 430 and AP controller later (I've heard to buy the servos now and install during the fuse build?). Then other questions come up too. Heated pitot (at least here in the NW), dual battery/bus (with the EFIS battery backups is this even needed anymore?).

With the AFS 3500 EE you get the engine monitoring. Does anyone recommend redundant analog engine gauges? With an EFIS failiure, I'd have airspeed and altitude backups but no engine info.

I would definitely recommend IFR training to any pilot. It makes you a more solid pilot no matter if you ever file after you get your rating or not. In the midst of getting my -7 built and flying though I am thinking the extra 10-15k might be better spent elsewhere (like the wife and kid).
 
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I do...however, I typically only use it in a pinch. I've flown in enough no-kidding IMC (at work) such that in my play airplane I lean towards waiting around or changing course to avoid weather. I do keep my inspections & approach currency up just incase though.

In the military, flying at night is considered IFR flying. I originally scoffed that idea, but doing a trip on a moonless night through non-inhabited areas will change anyone's mind.

Last night I flew this route from SLC to Rosamond:
slc-l00.gif
Map provided by Karl Swartz's Great Circle Mapper

For much of the section from just south of SLC until about 60 miles out from Vegas, there was an overcast deck at 20k that killed most of the star light. For those that haven't flown direct from SLC to Vegas, there are NO lights on the ground. Black up, black down...that requires an IFR plane in my book. (BTW, I love my EFIS!)

I'm lucky enough, however that 99% of the days at my home drome are severe VFR. If I lived someplace that had a thin low overcast deck all the time (i.e. LA area), I'd use the plane's IFR-ability way more. 300-1 is one thing, a wussy 1000' AGL deck that makes things "IFR" is another.
 
IFR

You might go IFR light to start with an SL 30 and a 496. It can get you on top and give you ILS capibilty. Ad a 430 WAAS later when you feel compelled to spend $8K. This is my plan for now and I am IFR rated. Good luck CJ
 
Question for Groucho..

Groucho, what type acft did you fly the SLC-Rosamond trip in? Was it your RV? That would get my attention in a light plane too. Yes it sure is dark out there. But I'm looking at from FL350 or more most of the time.

As for a "wussy" 1000 ceiling: If you had to drop through it in your engineless RV, you'd be breaking out with less than a minute of time and not much glide distance left. You'd better like what you're on top of at that moment (assuming you can see details on the ground) - if not it could be a very rude ending to your flight.

1000' is all I'd want to be on top of in a single of any kind - my .02 anyway.
 
Groucho, what type acft did you fly the SLC-Rosamond trip in? Was it your RV? That would get my attention in a light plane too. Yes it sure is dark out there. But I'm looking at from FL350 or more most of the time.
Yup, RV. During the day, there's not many places to safely land in an engine-out kinda scenario. At night, you'd pretty much be dead unless you follow I-15 the whole way. Thankfully, the RV is very happy up to 17.5 ("VFR" with O2), so that'll give you a little more time to get the motor relit if required...if you can.

After flying that route without a moon...I don't recommend it at all.

As for a "wussy" 1000 ceiling...You'd better like what you're on top of at that moment (assuming you can see details on the ground) - if not it could be a very rude ending to your flight.
Indeed. You can certainly find yourself dead in any IFR conditions if everything doesn't go right. For an example of that, I'm talking about the AM stuff that's sometimes around coastal airports. "Punching through" an IFR layer to get VFR is all I'm referring to there. Any time you have an engine out in a single engine airplane, you have limited options. If the weather's bad or it's dark out, you are even more limited. That's a risk anyone takes flying IFR in a single engine airplane. I've lost engines in multi-engine airplanes & lived to tell about it. I'm not sure I'd be around if in the same situations I was in a single.

1000' is all I'd want to be on top of in a single of any kind - my .02 anyway.
That's a great weather min recommendation. The mins on the approach plates are necessarily safe or smart.
 
All I can say is Paul Dye left LOE in 2006 while the rest of us had to wait for the ceiling to lift. He made it back to Houston in his plane that day. We left in a four ship loose formation (DR, Danny King and his wife, Robby Knox and I, and another plane) after the clouds lifted we fought our way to Abilene and that was as far as we got. If we were capable of flying IFR we would have made it past the front and home to Savannah. Instead we were stuck in Abilene, had to rent a car and fly commercial from Dallas to Savannah leaving the plane in Abilene.

My plane is equipped to fly IFR and I intend to fly it in IMC. I don't have my IR but I intend to finish up as soon as I get my -10 done. I fly on moonless nights and in thick haze but I feel very comfortable in instrument conditions.
 
My plane is equipped to fly IFR and I intend to fly it in IMC. I don't have my IR but I intend to finish up as soon as I get my -10 done. I fly on moonless nights and in thick haze but I feel very comfortable in instrument conditions.

Thick haze and moonless nights are not quite IFR conditions.. ;)

It took me a few trips into the soup in our RV to get used to the feeling of the bubble canopy and being in solid IMC.. I have no issues flying solid IMC down to the lowest of minimums, but it just felt very different to be in IMC with it surrounding me like it did in the RV.. :)

I would suggest, and you probably would, but I would get your IFR ticket in the 10.. However, the 10 won't feel as bubble canopied as the other variants..
 
Thick haze and moonless nights are not quite IFR conditions.. ;)

Yes I know that but many people who are not IR won't fly in such conditions and many would suggest flying on a moonless night over the desert or water(JFK jr.) is like flying IFR.
 
The -8 I bought last fall had been previously flying but disassembled when I bought it and was a basic VFR machine....SL40, Garmin GPS III, and basic engine instruments, but no AI (and very well built I might add by Jeff Jasinsky). About this time last year I sold a fully equipped Beech A36 and except for local boring holes in the sky flying (not really a good mission for the Beech), I almost always filed IFR for even short trips on CAVU days. I live near the Washington ADIZ, and flying in the ADIZ when IFR is a non event. VFR in that area I would think would be at least a little stressful. Non-ADIZ trips filed IFR assured me of radar coverage and traffic conflict resolution for the trip. When IFR you never get the dreaded 'too busy for flight following squawk VFR' message.

So when I started the rebuild of the -8 (getting close - Whirlwind 200RV prop mounted yesterday and first engine start will be today :D ), my goal for the plane was to be minimally IFR capable. I wanted to keep the weight down, but yet I wanted to be able to blast off through a cloud layer and/or descend through one. In the Beech I would fly low IFR if needed. For the -8, now equipped with an SL30/Garmin 696/Dynon EFIS D-100 & EMS D-120/Dynon autopilot, I will likely never attempt low IFR, and have yet to decide my personal minimums for the aircraft. That will come as I fly the -8 and see how it handles and how the equipment works, particularly the autopilot.

The point of this rambling is that by equipping your aircraft for IFR and holding the rating you will have options that you don't have with VFR. But, YOU have to decide if the cost/benefit ratio is worth it for you. For me it is, and my minimal panel will give me the options that I am looking for with this aircraft.
 
IFR in the RV-4

My RV-4 is fully IFR equipped and I have used it in IMC conditions in the past. After a couple of stressful times in IMC, I have choosen to limit my IFR use of this aircraft. The tiny cockpit makes it nearly impossible to look at any charts for reference and without an autopilot, it requires a lot of "baby sitting" in the clouds. It's easy to get off altitude and heading while glancing at approach plates, etc. It would be easier with an auto pilot for sure. They do pack a load of ice though. I had a friend get loaded up with an inch of ice and it still flew relatively fine (definitely not recommended!) Beware of the horizontal stab / elevator area as any ice buildup can easily bridge this space between the elevator counterweight and the horizontal stab "freezing" up the elevator. Just bump the control stick now and then to free it up if.
 
Yes I know that but many people who are not IR won't fly in such conditions and many would suggest flying on a moonless night over the desert or water(JFK jr.) is like flying IFR.

I was taught that, rules be damned, if you have to fly by reference to instruments, whatever the cause, you're "IFR" and you'd be well advised to have that rating (and be current) and be *using* it right then.

I've been over water at night where there was no horizon, no moon, and it was damned dark...to me, that's instrument flight.

(Besides, if it's that dark, and with no horizon visible, how do you *know* what the visibility/ceiling actually is :) ).
 
no visible horizon (day or night) is IMC, which has nothing to do with IFR, except that to be legal you better be flying under the "rules" when in the "conditions" unless you are in the Navy flying low over the water :).

a dark moonless or hazy night is every bit as challenging as being in the soup (without turb of course). In fact it can be more so especially in fairly unpopulated areas where the few cultural lights (houses, street lamps, etc.) cannot be distinguished from the starlight...so you see lights above you (stars) and lights below you (cultural) that can mess you up. This is even more evident when flying low altitude over the water at night with no visible horizon and is certainly IMC.
 
no such thing as an IFR certification for aircraft only pilots. It either has the required equipment as per FAR 91 or it doesn't.
 
White-outs as well.....

......can be very difficult to navigate, as we found out ferrying two Cessna Agwagons from Wichita, one winter. All the ground was white and the snow flurries we flew through masked the horizon completely. We had to scan both sides to find a reference to be right side up.

Best,
 
......can be very difficult to navigate, as we found out ferrying two Cessna Agwagons from Wichita, one winter. All the ground was white and the snow flurries we flew through masked the horizon completely. We had to scan both sides to find a reference to be right side up.

Best,

I'm guessin' that being Agwagons, they had pretty poor instrumentation - did they at least give you a cat and a duck as backup?!:rolleyes:
 
When I could talk my boss into ordering a turn 'n bank...

...we'd then have an amazing bit of IMC capability! An old trick is to establish a steady speed climb up through the layer on an easterly heading (so you could see the bright area of the sun) if it's morning, keeping the ball centered with the ailerons (you roll it back to center) and keep the little wings level with the rudder (no yaw, no turn). There was a lot of uncontrolled airspace back in the 70's.

This past December in Reno, at our National Ag Aviation convention, Leland Snow had their new AT 1002, 1000 gallon hopper airplane there, Garmin 430W, Glass screens, Autopilot, Xpdr, and full IFR!! The first fully instrumented single-engined ag airplane I've ever seen. Pretty inexpensive to be so equipped when you figure the cost of the airplane will be around $2 million.

Yep, we did some crazy stuff those days.

Best,
 
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I built my 7 for somewhat comfortable IFR capability with Garmin 430W, SL30, autopilot with alt hold, G496 for wx, and in 280 hrs of a lot of cross country flying I have made about 6 approaches. However, the comfort in knowing that you can make an approach if you need to and that being on top is not an issue and not having to worry about whether an MOA is hot or not, or if there is TFR in your way or being able to depart when the only limiting factor is low vis that is burning off, all make for a much more useful airplane to me. My philosophy is that you are paying for our air traffic system and that you might as well use it!
Blue Sky's
Randy Utsey
RV-7 / N55CU
Charlotte, N.C.
 
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