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Recent issues with jets

jcarne

Well Known Member
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Okay, first if this thread isn't appropriate for these forums can a moderator please let me know and I'll take it elsewhere.

I fly out of KCOD which is Cody Wyoming. This is a pretty hot (by our standards) airport for corporate jet activity due to it's proximity to Yellowstone and ranches. I have had two issues with Citations lately and want your opinion on what you would have done.

Scenario 1

So there I was flying with a buddy entering a midfield crosswind for runway 4 (no traffic in the pattern). Winds were calm on the AWOS also verified by the wind sock. As a local pilot here runway 4 is the preferred runway for landing if winds calm (notice the location of the hangars). As we are overflying the field I see a Citation taxiing faster than any other aircraft in my life to 22 (I still don't know why he taxied 8000 feet on calm winds). Now we are past our abeam spot and slowing down. The pilot literally asks where we are to which we reply left downwind runway 4 about to turn base. He then comes on the radio and announces his departure on 22. Well this situation seems easy as we have no real option other than to yield the right of way and curse him profusely while fighting the urge to not key the mic.

Here is a pic of the airfield and our positions. (note: he was not lined up on the runway yet)

q by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Scenario 2 (two days later different Citation)

There I was again this time with my instructor in the same exact position abeam the numbers for runway 4 when a Citation announces 10 mile final for runway 22. Today however, the winds strongly favor runway 4. I tell him where we are in the pattern and that we are closed traffic thinking he would get the clue. Well he didn't... as I'm on base he announces 6ish mile final if I remember right. As I turn final I tell him I'll make this a full stop and get out of his way. My instructor was irritated at the other pilot for sure but I also think he was a little irritated that I gave the Citation a full stop as well (he has a few other stories as well of instances like this and is also tired of it). We exit the runway and the Citation lands right on cue in the opposing direction with a tailwind. We were never at an unsafe distance from the jet.

Needless to say I'm getting pretty tired of some of these corporate guys expecting us to yield to them. So, would you have handled things differently? I have no problem in giving the right of way but I'm sure getting tired of other pilots not following the right of way rules and simply expecting me to yield because they are faster. Also worth mentioning I have given the most recent 2 examples but this has happened more times than that.

Might of sounded like a rant but I really would like to learn how others handle these situations.
 
As an RV owner, and corporate jet pilot, perhaps I can add some perspective as I see it..

First off, with both of the aircraft being Citations, they may not be "corporate guys" at all. Pretty likely they're owner operators, just like we are (of our RV's)

Scenario 1: Taking a quick look at KCOD, I don't see anything that says that runway 4 is the preferred runway. You may know this is a local, but me as a transient pilot, I would not. Therefore, based on the info that I can access as a transient pilot, really the choice of runway would be mine to make given the calm winds. Obviously, it would have been better for the Citation to get an understanding of any traffic before picking runway 22. Did the pilot make a call when taxiing from the FBO? If so, do you recall what your next call was after they made the call of taxiing from the FBO to runway 22? I question whether the pilot had the situational awareness when they left the FBO to know that there was another airplane landing on runway 4.

It sounds like the pilot was inconsiderate given your location, but there may be more to the story that we aren't privy to (IFR void time?) Certainly room for the Citation pilot to have handled this better, but given an average takeoff roll of 30 seconds, if the Citation were to offset to the left after takeoff, there was probably room for both of you if you extended your downwind just a few seconds. Of course, they could have politely asked if you'd do so...

Scenario 2: The Citation is likely certified to land with up to a 10 knot tailwind. My guess is they were coming from the north, and decided to make a straight in on runway 22 so they'd have a minimum taxi time to the FBO. Sloppy, yes. Illegal, no.

Bottom line is, at an uncontrolled airport, we should all do our best to coordinate with each other, and mix into the flow of traffic. Sometimes we have to take the high road, whether we're in a jet or a piston, regardless of who is "right."

It sounds like you made some great decisions, while the other aircraft made some questionable decisions. Since you aren't likely to change anyone, I'd encourage you to make good radio calls, and don't be afraid to ask the other pilot if they'd mind landing in the flow of prevailing traffic, or if they'd mind waiting for you to land. You might just get what you ask for. :D


Okay, first if this thread isn't appropriate for these forums can a moderator please let me know and I'll take it elsewhere.

I fly out of KCOD which is Cody Wyoming. This is a pretty hot (by our standards) airport for corporate jet activity due to it's proximity to Yellowstone and ranches. I have had two issues with Citations lately and want your opinion on what you would have done.

Scenario 1

So there I was flying with a buddy entering a midfield crosswind for runway 4 (no traffic in the pattern). Winds were calm on the AWOS also verified by the wind sock. As a local pilot here runway 4 is the preferred runway for landing if winds calm (notice the location of the hangars). As we are overflying the field I see a Citation taxiing faster than any other aircraft in my life to 22 (I still don't know why he taxied 8000 feet on calm winds). Now we are past our abeam spot and slowing down. The pilot literally asks where we are to which we reply left downwind runway 4 about to turn base. He then comes on the radio and announces his departure on 22. Well this situation seems easy as we have no real option other than to yield the right of way and curse him profusely while fighting the urge to not key the mic.

Here is a pic of the airfield and our positions. (note: he was not lined up on the runway yet)

q by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Scenario 2 (two days later different Citation)

There I was again this time with my instructor in the same exact position abeam the numbers for runway 4 when a Citation announces 10 mile final for runway 22. Today however, the winds strongly favor runway 4. I tell him where we are in the pattern and that we are closed traffic thinking he would get the clue. Well he didn't... as I'm on base he announces 6ish mile final if I remember right. As I turn final I tell him I'll make this a full stop and get out of his way. My instructor was irritated at the other pilot for sure but I also think he was a little irritated that I gave the Citation a full stop as well (he has a few other stories as well of instances like this and is also tired of it). We exit the runway and the Citation lands right on cue in the opposing direction with a tailwind. We were never at an unsafe distance from the jet.

Needless to say I'm getting pretty tired of some of these corporate guys expecting us to yield to them. So, would you have handled things differently? I have no problem in giving the right of way but I'm sure getting tired of other pilots not following the right of way rules and simply expecting me to yield because they are faster. Also worth mentioning I have given the most recent 2 examples but this has happened more times than that.

Might of sounded like a rant but I really would like to learn how others handle these situations.
 
Might of sounded like a rant but I really would like to learn how others handle these situations.

Take a deep breath.

Privately consider their similarity to a thing pink, puckered, and round.

Forget about it.
 
Good info.

Thanx for the jet pilot perspective SPX. I have no problem modifying my pattern if a jet announces they are on approach. I treat them like 18 wheelers on the hiway. They’re bigger than me and I’m gonna lose if we connect in any way.
Had similar situation flying in to KFQD. Jet pilot thanked me for extending the downwind. Appreciated that and we had a good, friendly discussion while he checked out my RV.
 
I fly out of a uncontrolled country airport (KIKG) with some business jet and Navy King Air traffic. I try to stay out of their way just for my peace of mind.
 
I will typically offer to adjust my plans as a courtesy to the jets. I know the lower and slower rules, but think about what it costs us in fuel to loiter for a few minutes as opposed to them having to fly the pattern. I like being in my plane so I don’t mind a little sight seeing. I also understand that my actions lead to a mindset in the jet pilots that us little guys should get out of their way but you simply have to let an a-hole be an a-hole and not let it affect you some times. The good pilots will understand what you did for them and appreciate it.
 
I will typically offer to adjust my plans as a courtesy to the jets. I know the lower and slower rules, but think about what it costs us in fuel to loiter for a few minutes as opposed to them having to fly the pattern.
I hear this argument once in a while and I have always rejected it outright. If this is a corporate flight coming in to land, it has a revenue stream that pays for it to do so. I, in my personal aircraft, am paying for my own gas out of my own pocket. Let the paying customers fly the pattern like the rest of us. I hadn't considered that the jet may be privately owned just like my RV... That is a good point.

Regardless, there are clear right-of-way rules. Landing aircraft take priority... so the departing jet should have at least waited for the plane to land before departing, and the arriving jet should have conformed to the existing traffic pattern.
 
Try not to feel slighted. Most jet pilots are good guys who appreciate it when you help them out. I would just give them a break for two reasons. First, most of the time they are probably working and I am just playing. Second they burn a whole lot more fossil fuel than we do so the sooner they land or takeoff the better for Mother Earth. :)
 
I was flying on a checkride for a multiengine rating several years ago and we were coming into Erie airport (KEIK) just north of Denver to do a single engine landing. The field is untowered and we announced downwind, base, final, etc. It was a checkride - I was doing everything by the book.

There was a twin engine plane in the runup area, maybe an ATR 72 or something similar looking. I think there used to be a commuter airline out of there. Not sure if there still is. I have tended to stay away from Erie for training due to this incident, a nearby aerobatic box where no one has any idea of what proper spacing means, and the low overhead Class B shelf for Denver Intl.

Anyway, we are on final, less than a mile out. We announce the turn to final and we can see the plane inching toward the runway. The examiner gets on the radio and announces short final. The ATR speeds up the taxi and takes the runway when we are less than half a mile out.

The single engine climb rate in a Seminole with 6000+ feet of density altitude is approximately 0. We end up sidestepping the runway, level off at about 200 feet AGL, and fly past the accelerating plane close enough that we can see passengers looking at us out the window.

All the pilot can say when the examiner radios again and yells at him is "sorry guys!" in a laughing voice.

I sent in a NASA report and the examiner said he was going to file a complaint.

Needless to say, even the "pros" sometimes break all the rules and act like a**holes, too, sometimes.
 
As an RV owner, and corporate jet pilot, perhaps I can add some perspective as I see it..

First off, with both of the aircraft being Citations, they may not be "corporate guys" at all. Pretty likely they're owner operators, just like we are (of our RV's)

Scenario 1: Taking a quick look at KCOD, I don't see anything that says that runway 4 is the preferred runway. You may know this is a local, but me as a transient pilot, I would not. Therefore, based on the info that I can access as a transient pilot, really the choice of runway would be mine to make given the calm winds. Obviously, it would have been better for the Citation to get an understanding of any traffic before picking runway 22. Did the pilot make a call when taxiing from the FBO? If so, do you recall what your next call was after they made the call of taxiing from the FBO to runway 22? I question whether the pilot had the situational awareness when they left the FBO to know that there was another airplane landing on runway 4.

Yes the pilot did make a taxiing call from the ramp. At that point we called that we were about a mile out with intentions to overfly for a midfield crosswind on 4. We also made 10 mile and 5 mile calls, but it is quite likely that they didn't have their radios on yet.

I definitely see your point about the fact he wasn't local and maybe didn't know the preferred runway on winds calm. It does however seem somewhat obvious to pilots based on the location of the hangars and the rising terrain on the departure end of 22.

It sounds like the pilot was inconsiderate given your location, but there may be more to the story that we aren't privy to (IFR void time?) Certainly room for the Citation pilot to have handled this better, but given an average takeoff roll of 30 seconds, if the Citation were to offset to the left after takeoff, there was probably room for both of you if you extended your downwind just a few seconds. Of course, they could have politely asked if you'd do so...

Ya it seemed to me at the time that that option would have been tight as he was still before the hold short line. In the end I think a 360 was the only safe option we had on this one. Like I said I don't have a problem yielding but this one in particular made me made because he specifically asked us where we were. This one seemed somewhat intentional to me.

Scenario 2: The Citation is likely certified to land with up to a 10 knot tailwind. My guess is they were coming from the north, and decided to make a straight in on runway 22 so they'd have a minimum taxi time to the FBO. Sloppy, yes. Illegal, no.

Yes that is probably true. To add to this there is no approved approach to runway 4, only 22. However, the weather was clear and no reason to fly the RNAV.

Bottom line is, at an uncontrolled airport, we should all do our best to coordinate with each other, and mix into the flow of traffic. Sometimes we have to take the high road, whether we're in a jet or a piston, regardless of who is "right."

It sounds like you made some great decisions, while the other aircraft made some questionable decisions. Since you aren't likely to change anyone, I'd encourage you to make good radio calls, and don't be afraid to ask the other pilot if they'd mind landing in the flow of prevailing traffic, or if they'd mind waiting for you to land. You might just get what you ask for. :D

This is where I probably could have been better. Perhaps if I had advised that the winds were really favoring runway 4 and I was touch and go I could have asked him politely to just enter the downwind.

Thank you for your perspective on the matters here SPX, it is very valuable.
 
My favorite is on a seriously clear day, pattern is busy and someone announces they are on the RNAV, or worse, announces their position by the fix points. :rolleyes:

I understand that pet peeve. I always try to merge into the pattern with the prevailing traffic. However, do keep in mind that at least in the jet that I fly, due to turn radius and the speeds we must fly to do the turns (about 160 KIAS typically) our patterns will be significantly wider than a pattern flown by a light single.

You may be flying a 3/4 - 1 mile wider pattern, whereas I am going to be flying a 2 - 2.5 mile wide pattern. This means that if I am flying a downwind, base, and final in a busy pattern, I am sure to pass directly in front of someone while they're on the downwind, as I turn base, and again as I turn base to final, as the slower plane is on base. Some would say that I am "cutting off" traffic in the pattern, when in reality, I am just doing what has to be done to fly the airspeeds that must be flown. I question whether a straight-in, where a hole can easily be made without cutting anyone off, is in fact the more polite and considerate procedure in this case?
 
It does however seem somewhat obvious to pilots based on the location of the hangars and the rising terrain on the departure end of 22.


Given the rising terrain - 100% concur.

Location of the hangars - I have to admit, in almost 24 years of flying, I've never considered that the location of the hangars have a bearing on the calm wind runway. I sincerely and humbly ask you, is that a thing? I've always thought that whether there's an approach to a runway, where the terrain is relative to the runways, noise abatement considerations, etc. were the drivers of a calm wind runway, but not hangar locations.
 
I know the lower and slower rules, but think about what it costs us in fuel to loiter for a few minutes as opposed to them having to fly the pattern.

I said something almost exactly like this to my instructor to which he replied "ya but he isn't paying for it" haha probably true.
 
Given the rising terrain - 100% concur.

Location of the hangars - I have to admit, in almost 24 years of flying, I've never considered that the location of the hangars have a bearing on the calm wind runway. I sincerely and humbly ask you, is that a thing? I've always thought that whether there's an approach to a runway, where the terrain is relative to the runways, noise abatement considerations, etc. were the drivers of a calm wind runway, but not hangar locations.

Not usually but I think at KCOD it definitely makes sense. Perhaps instead of saying hangars I should say ramp (they are all in the same location at the south side of the airport). It just doesn't seem logical to taxi that far for a departure in winds calm, especially considering he turned to the northwest with the terrain off departure.
 
I was flying on a checkride for a multiengine rating several years ago and we were coming into Erie airport (KEIK) just north of Denver to do a single engine landing. The field is untowered and we announced downwind, base, final, etc. It was a checkride - I was doing everything by the book.

There was a twin engine plane in the runup area, maybe an ATR 72 or something similar looking. I think there used to be a commuter airline out of there. Not sure if there still is. I have tended to stay away from Erie for training due to this incident, a nearby aerobatic box where no one has any idea of what proper spacing means, and the low overhead Class B shelf for Denver Intl.

Anyway, we are on final, less than a mile out. We announce the turn to final and we can see the plane inching toward the runway. The examiner gets on the radio and announces short final. The ATR speeds up the taxi and takes the runway when we are less than half a mile out.

The single engine climb rate in a Seminole with 6000+ feet of density altitude is approximately 0. We end up sidestepping the runway, level off at about 200 feet AGL, and fly past the accelerating plane close enough that we can see passengers looking at us out the window.

All the pilot can say when the examiner radios again and yells at him is "sorry guys!" in a laughing voice.

I sent in a NASA report and the examiner said he was going to file a complaint.

Needless to say, even the "pros" sometimes break all the rules and act like a**holes, too, sometimes.

This is why I am quick to yield right of way. I don't want to end up in a situation like this. Thanks for telling your story and I'm glad it worked out for you guys.
 
Jereme - sounds like you’ve actually got a pretty good attitude about learning the pros and cons of what everyone did in your cases - good for you!

Personally, I am always willing to give way to someone else (even if it privately makes me steam a little) if it Doesn’t create an unsafe situation for me - and that usually gets paid back when I need consideration from others.

For instance, the tiny jet I fly doesn’t have much fuel capacity - if I have to wait on the ground for takeoff when I get to the runway, it can seriously impact whether I can get to my destination - especially if I have to hold for several student pilots in the pattern in trikes. So I very politely ask (as I am taxiing to the runway) if its possible for someone to make a hole for a quick departure. I also start announcing arrival intentions a little farther out than usual, so people know something unusual is inbound, and negotiate a reasonable spot in the pattern.

I don't think this is an unreasonable request because I always try and give other people what they need when they ask - I guess some call this Karma.

And sure - I get pissed of when someone takes advantage of me - but unless it is dangerous, it passes. A month or so ago, I had a guy in an LSA at our nearby airport where I was dropping in for fuel make virtually EVERY decision wrong in the pattern, Despite us trading radio calls on intentions, and I ended up with a very low go-around (a challenging, but not unsafe maneuver). He THEN started the “GO” part of his stop and go, and said he’d make a short turn to crosswind if that would help. I Declared min fuel, and asked him to extend a half mile, I’d do a tight pattern, and be out of the way before I he landed. I was at the fuel pump before he touched down again.

Yes, I was mildly annoyed, but I was ahead of the jet, saw what was coming, and it gave me a chance to practice that go-around maneuver I rarely do. And I wasn’t THAT low on fuel. So I waved at him from the fuel pump and went on my way.

Give a little, get a little - it should all even out in the end.
 
One consideration every RV pilot should keep in mind even when dealing with smaller jets is wake turbulence. With calm winds I would not consider a closely spaced landing with a jet offsetting the runway to let me in right after his departure. He is going to lay vortices across the runway. The same applies landing behind a jet on the same runway. In that situation a 5 to 7 knot crosswind can hold vortices on the runway for a extended time.
G
 
So, having flown one of my work airplanes to Cody in the not too distant past and having a fair chunk of Citation time let me bring you along on my planning thought process as I looked at the airport.

When I was there with the 737 the day was clear and the wind was clearly favoring 22 at something like 18 knots but this is what I was looking at.

Arrival. Jets have surprisingly good glide ratios. Getting the jet to descend on the profile for the RNAV 04 would be a challenge. It would take flaps and speed brakes and probably the Goodyear speed brakes too (gear down) from quite a ways out to stay on profile. As you know, the terrain to the west is both high and close. There are some jets where the use of the speed brakes with flaps extended is not allowed. The Citation isn't one of them but as an example most Gulfstreams cannot extend the speed brakes in flight if the gear is down or the flaps are beyond 20 degrees.
The approach to 22 is less drastic since it brings you in over much lower terrain.

Departure. There is no charted departure procedure so you are left with the obstacle departure procedures unless you are willing to roll you own and maintain your own terrain separation but then you just threw away any minor protections you might have had should an engine fail. Coming off of 04 the DP takes you up the valley towards the VOR. A pretty benign and simple procedure. Coming off 22 you go kind of straight ahead and then what amounts to a left 270 back to the VOR but initially you are poking your nose in to quickly rising terrain. Then there is the Cody specific VCOA procedure where you circle up before heading over to the VOR.
Depending on the equipment and the rules you are flying under you might have more precise departure instructions and very specific guidance should one of the engines decide to take a lunch break. I don't have them here now but I do recall we spent a ton of time analyzing/briefing the complex special departure procedure for 22.

So, in my perfect world I would land 22 and depart 04.

Most jets have a 10 knot tailwind limit and that is really only because that is where the performance data stops. If the wind was 11 knots and even if you had a 12 mile long runway you still couldn't depart or land because you don't have the performance data to support what you are trying to do. You can buy more wind data from some manufacturers though. I seem to recall it was more than a million dollars to get 15 knot data from Boeing. Beyond that you are probably going to start running in to tire speed limits anyway.

As for your guys,
The crew departing were possibly hustling to make a void time clearance limit. I seem to recall ours was not very long when we left and I was glad we waited until we were at the end of the runway before we picked it up.
I checked quickly again now and I couldn't find anything that said 04 is the preferred calm wind runway. Doesn't mean it isn't published somewhere but Jepp, Foreflight and the AFD don't mention it that I saw. You can't really blame a transient crew for not having local knowledge. Yes they could have asked and maybe they did but had an overriding reason to depart 22 or perhaps it was simply that they landed 22 earlier and they had 22 on the brain. Were it me, given the option, I would depart 04 every day of the week even while not flying a jet. For they crew who landed 22 while 04 was in use, again, if I had the performance I would chose an approach and landing to 22 over 04 if there was a choice.
With regard to them launching into opposing traffic,
I don't really have a good answer for that one. I mean maybe they thought since they were coming off 22 and the departure procedure essentially amounts to a left turn that they would be airborne and deconflicted from traffic before they reached the end of the runway. It was a Citation and they do have reasonable runway performance, even at 5000' MSL. Not saying it was right/smart but that might have been what they were thinking.

BTW, you have a really nice airport. Everybody from the airport Ops crew and the FBO were very helpful and efficient.
 
I generally agree with Paul Dye’s comment on “give a little and occasionally get a little.” I will also admit in the past I had a bias against “puddle jumpers/ bug smashers” when I flew jets. However now that I’m older, smarter and truly enjoy flying my RV7A for fun I’ve experienced a number of ill-considerate pilots of all types who either don’t know right of way rules, uncontrolled airport operations, or don’t care whether they follow those rules.

Paul’s right in that consideration given is usually the smartest option but when you observe certain aircraft or pilots repetitively not following the rules then it’s time to at least take a minute on the radio to let them know their actions are not appropriate and if they don’t correct or apologize then it’s time to report them to your local FSDO. A call from the FAA to the repeat offender will get their attention and just maybe correct their unsafe behavior. A NASA report is also a responsible alternative.

Safe operation is imperative to being a responsible pilot. We’ve all seen people who flaunt the rules and it’s our responsibility to ensure they get called on it. That’s not to say that we don’t all make the occasional mistake but when we do we should be mature enough to being called on them and taking the appropriate corrective action. Fly safe!
 
I'll toss in a little "good news" story in hopes it raises the mood a little.

I operate from an uncontrolled airport. Frequently when flying our "little airplane", a Davis DA2A, I can get as many as 10 touch and go's in an hour if I'm training intensely. Still, it flies at a leisurely 80MPH on base and final, so it's not exactly a speedster in the pattern.

Imagine my surprise when I'm on downwind to the wind-favored runway and I hear a 25 mile call from the local King Air 350 operator. Yes, he was 25 miles back on an IFR flight plan and calling in to build his situational awareness as he approached the airport. I let him know I was the only airplane in the pattern doing touch-and-go's. A few minutes later he calls at 5 miles and I respond with my position, base for 28. The timing is going to be awkward and we both know it. So what does this guy do as he's gulping kerosene at a horrific rate? He does a full VFR overhead arrival, makes all the proper radio calls like he was flying a 172, and then offers to extend his downwind because timing will be close since I've just turned final!

Needless to say, that offer by the "big guy" to help accommodate me, the "little guy", was reciprocated. I told him I would go around and offset to the south so he could do a normal approach and we would not be in conflict in case he had to go around.

After all the dust settled I think both pilots walked away from their airplanes that evening with smiles on their faces. I certainly know I did. A little courtesy and consideration goes a long, long way - that evening was living proof of the concept.
 
Jereme - sounds like you’ve actually got a pretty good attitude about learning the pros and cons of what everyone did in your cases - good for you!

Personally, I am always willing to give way to someone else (even if it privately makes me steam a little) if it Doesn’t create an unsafe situation for me - and that usually gets paid back when I need consideration from others.

For instance, the tiny jet I fly doesn’t have much fuel capacity - if I have to wait on the ground for takeoff when I get to the runway, it can seriously impact whether I can get to my destination - especially if I have to hold for several student pilots in the pattern in trikes. So I very politely ask (as I am taxiing to the runway) if its possible for someone to make a hole for a quick departure. I also start announcing arrival intentions a little farther out than usual, so people know something unusual is inbound, and negotiate a reasonable spot in the pattern.

I don't think this is an unreasonable request because I always try and give other people what they need when they ask - I guess some call this Karma.

And sure - I get pissed of when someone takes advantage of me - but unless it is dangerous, it passes. A month or so ago, I had a guy in an LSA at our nearby airport where I was dropping in for fuel make virtually EVERY decision wrong in the pattern, Despite us trading radio calls on intentions, and I ended up with a very low go-around (a challenging, but not unsafe maneuver). He THEN started the “GO” part of his stop and go, and said he’d make a short turn to crosswind if that would help. I Declared min fuel, and asked him to extend a half mile, I’d do a tight pattern, and be out of the way before I he landed. I was at the fuel pump before he touched down again.

Yes, I was mildly annoyed, but I was ahead of the jet, saw what was coming, and it gave me a chance to practice that go-around maneuver I rarely do. And I wasn’t THAT low on fuel. So I waved at him from the fuel pump and went on my way.

Give a little, get a little - it should all even out in the end.

Dave thanks for your great insight. It is easy sometimes for us pilots, especially non-pro ones to forget that others flying different more complex aircraft may have more going on to deal with than we might. P.S. Can't wait to see that jet in person, hopefully next year at Osh? :D


One consideration every RV pilot should keep in mind even when dealing with smaller jets is wake turbulence. With calm winds I would not consider a closely spaced landing with a jet offsetting the runway to let me in right after his departure. He is going to lay vortices across the runway. The same applies landing behind a jet on the same runway. In that situation a 5 to 7 knot crosswind can hold vortices on the runway for a extended time.
G

Bingo, I know we are taught how to land and takeoff after the heavies but I only have one policy; wait 2 minutes. I don't like to take chances with vortices.

So, having flown one of my work airplanes to Cody in the not too distant past and having a fair chunk of Citation time let me bring you along on my planning thought process as I looked at the airport.

When I was there with the 737 the day was clear and the wind was clearly favoring 22 at something like 18 knots but this is what I was looking at.

Arrival. Jets have surprisingly good glide ratios. Getting the jet to descend on the profile for the RNAV 04 would be a challenge. It would take flaps and speed brakes and probably the Goodyear speed brakes too (gear down) from quite a ways out to stay on profile. As you know, the terrain to the west is both high and close. There are some jets where the use of the speed brakes with flaps extended is not allowed. The Citation isn't one of them but as an example most Gulfstreams cannot extend the speed brakes in flight if the gear is down or the flaps are beyond 20 degrees.
The approach to 22 is less drastic since it brings you in over much lower terrain.

Departure. There is no charted departure procedure so you are left with the obstacle departure procedures unless you are willing to roll you own and maintain your own terrain separation but then you just threw away any minor protections you might have had should an engine fail. Coming off of 04 the DP takes you up the valley towards the VOR. A pretty benign and simple procedure. Coming off 22 you go kind of straight ahead and then what amounts to a left 270 back to the VOR but initially you are poking your nose in to quickly rising terrain. Then there is the Cody specific VCOA procedure where you circle up before heading over to the VOR.
Depending on the equipment and the rules you are flying under you might have more precise departure instructions and very specific guidance should one of the engines decide to take a lunch break. I don't have them here now but I do recall we spent a ton of time analyzing/briefing the complex special departure procedure for 22.

So, in my perfect world I would land 22 and depart 04.

Most jets have a 10 knot tailwind limit and that is really only because that is where the performance data stops. If the wind was 11 knots and even if you had a 12 mile long runway you still couldn't depart or land because you don't have the performance data to support what you are trying to do. You can buy more wind data from some manufacturers though. I seem to recall it was more than a million dollars to get 15 knot data from Boeing. Beyond that you are probably going to start running in to tire speed limits anyway.

As for your guys,
The crew departing were possibly hustling to make a void time clearance limit. I seem to recall ours was not very long when we left and I was glad we waited until we were at the end of the runway before we picked it up.
I checked quickly again now and I couldn't find anything that said 04 is the preferred calm wind runway. Doesn't mean it isn't published somewhere but Jepp, Foreflight and the AFD don't mention it that I saw. You can't really blame a transient crew for not having local knowledge. Yes they could have asked and maybe they did but had an overriding reason to depart 22 or perhaps it was simply that they landed 22 earlier and they had 22 on the brain. Were it me, given the option, I would depart 04 every day of the week even while not flying a jet. For they crew who landed 22 while 04 was in use, again, if I had the performance I would chose an approach and landing to 22 over 04 if there was a choice.
With regard to them launching into opposing traffic,
I don't really have a good answer for that one. I mean maybe they thought since they were coming off 22 and the departure procedure essentially amounts to a left turn that they would be airborne and deconflicted from traffic before they reached the end of the runway. It was a Citation and they do have reasonable runway performance, even at 5000' MSL. Not saying it was right/smart but that might have been what they were thinking.

BTW, you have a really nice airport. Everybody from the airport Ops crew and the FBO were very helpful and efficient.

Sam, this is an absolute awesome post you made and I really appreciate your insight, it helped me understand a bit what is going through the professional mind. You are correct on the preferred runway not being published as it isn't. You did however do a spectacular job of pointing out why an aircraft of your caliber would want to takeoff on 04 and not 22. I feel like even a private pilot should be able to make some kind of brief on which runway would be and hopefully it would be painfully obvious that departing runway 22 would not be preferred for the many reasons you mentioned (it's a pretty unforgiving departure here). So when I say preferred it's definitely not published and I probably shouldn't expect a transient to know what locals do. I would however hope a pilot would make a good departure brief like you did very nicely in your post.

As far as scenario 2 I now have a better understanding on why he was probably preferring 22 instead of 04 for landing. The RNAV for 04 also hasn't been tested yet so I'm assuming you guys generally won't fly it then?
There has been a NOTAM for some time now on that approach. Curious on that one.

Seriously, thanks again for your insight on this Sam, it is much appreciated!
 
I generally agree with Paul Dye’s comment on “give a little and occasionally get a little.” I will also admit in the past I had a bias against “puddle jumpers/ bug smashers” when I flew jets. However now that I’m older, smarter and truly enjoy flying my RV7A for fun I’ve experienced a number of ill-considerate pilots of all types who either don’t know right of way rules, uncontrolled airport operations, or don’t care whether they follow those rules.

Paul’s right in that consideration given is usually the smartest option but when you observe certain aircraft or pilots repetitively not following the rules then it’s time to at least take a minute on the radio to let them know their actions are not appropriate and if they don’t correct or apologize then it’s time to report them to your local FSDO. A call from the FAA to the repeat offender will get their attention and just maybe correct their unsafe behavior. A NASA report is also a responsible alternative.

Safe operation is imperative to being a responsible pilot. We’ve all seen people who flaunt the rules and it’s our responsibility to ensure they get called on it. That’s not to say that we don’t all make the occasional mistake but when we do we should be mature enough to being called on them and taking the appropriate corrective action. Fly safe!

Thanks Jim for your thoughts. I never felt anything was unsafe so I will not be reporting anyone. Now I will just wait for the "occasionally get a little" part of your statement to come true. :)

P.S. apparently there is a 10,000 character limit so I had to quote yours separate. haha

I'll toss in a little "good news" story in hopes it raises the mood a little.

I operate from an uncontrolled airport. Frequently when flying our "little airplane", a Davis DA2A, I can get as many as 10 touch and go's in an hour if I'm training intensely. Still, it flies at a leisurely 80MPH on base and final, so it's not exactly a speedster in the pattern.

Imagine my surprise when I'm on downwind to the wind-favored runway and I hear a 25 mile call from the local King Air 350 operator. Yes, he was 25 miles back on an IFR flight plan and calling in to build his situational awareness as he approached the airport. I let him know I was the only airplane in the pattern doing touch-and-go's. A few minutes later he calls at 5 miles and I respond with my position, base for 28. The timing is going to be awkward and we both know it. So what does this guy do as he's gulping kerosene at a horrific rate? He does a full VFR overhead arrival, makes all the proper radio calls like he was flying a 172, and then offers to extend his downwind because timing will be close since I've just turned final!

Needless to say, that offer by the "big guy" to help accommodate me, the "little guy", was reciprocated. I told him I would go around and offset to the south so he could do a normal approach and we would not be in conflict in case he had to go around.

After all the dust settled I think both pilots walked away from their airplanes that evening with smiles on their faces. I certainly know I did. A little courtesy and consideration goes a long, long way - that evening was living proof of the concept.

Awesome story Mark, I felt like I was watching a Hallmark movie reading your description! :D Seriously though, that was some next level courtesy right there.
 
After hearing some great thoughts out there everyone I just wanted to point a few final thoughts of mine. I am in no way shape or form butt hurt about these instances to the point that I'm going to change my ways for the negative. I will continue to yield the right of way when I feel it is needed to avoid a conflict. I will continue to take the high ground (high air?) that I pride my flying on. I will however add making some requests to the other pilot if I can on occasion, no matter their size and speed. I have certainly learned by hashing some thoughts out on this thread and I hope someone else has and/or will in the future by reading it. It was especially interesting to me to hear the thoughts of the "big" guys.

It was also a nice break from simply talking about just building, because in the end isn't flying the real reason we are enjoying this great hobby and website? Happy flying everyone and stay safe and considerate out there.
 
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