Are you inadvertently voiding your insurance policy?

[flightlogic]

Insurance companies are not in business to protect you. Period. They exist for profit. Discuss what you want to do ahead of time and then send a fax to re-cap. If someone is killed, they will attempt to invalidate a claim. If it is just bent metal.. they usually just write a check. We work all our lives to save up a bit and also to fly a bit. The outcome of a crash can be much worse if you have not dotted your i's. Glad this thread came up, because it may save someone grief. Thanks to the OP.

[rleffler]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

Okay, so the issue was not wearing a hood, but rather operating in actual IMC.
This is a real issue for cfii's. The owner's airplane is usually covered via the open pilot clause but under such clauses the insurance company reserves the right to sue the cfii. Some policies specifically will cover instructors, some do not. Just another risk to bear for the privilge of instructing.

My open pilot clause states only named pilots are covered. I don't have a generic open pilot clause. I suspect that restriction is assisting in keeping premiums reasonable.

Since they are now a named pilot, it eliminates the subrogation issue from the cfii.

I don't want to derail this thread, but then the next level of conversation for the cfii that decides to fly in imc, is what experience do they have. Most of our RV-10s have technically advanced panels in which many cfii's have never had the opportunity to fly with. How much training do you have to provide the cfii before they are comfortable taking your aircraft into imc?

In my case, at the time, I was fairly new to my avionics and hadn't flown in imc in over ten years. We spent quite a bit of time working through the operational aspects of the avionics until we were both comfortable. Most local cfii's that I talked with were afraid of experiments or EFIS manufactures that they weren't familiar with. In some regards, I understand their concerns. I was fortunate to find a cfii that was a pilot for a local corporation and had built a sonex. So he wasn't afraid of experimentals or learning new technology. He was a solid pilot and cfii and had the mindset that we would both learn as we go and document the procedures. Once he was comfortable and up to speed, then we tackled imc.

[Bill Boyd]

But I'd be the first to admit I don't know all the pertinent variables. Let me try again, in a less tongue-in-cheek way:

I can imagine a cross country trip where two pilots share stick time in a plane owned by only one of them. At the conclusion of said trip, owner-CFI-pilot says to non-owner pilot-passenger, "You know what? You were the sole manipulator of the controls there for X.X hours. You could log that as PIC time, now that we know there is no possible way the flight we just concluded has resulted in an incident or any longer poses any exposure to the insurance carrier. You could maybe use those logged hours towards satisfying the currency/recency requirements for insuring your own first flight in your own RV-xxx."

How does that sound? I would submit that the risk to the insurer is absolutely not increased one iota by this action, which could be the aftermath of any successfully completed cross country in a private plane where two rated persons both touched the controls. And I doubt the insurance policy typically requires non-owners to be listed as named pilots if they are right-seat pax. Correct me if I'm wrong, here. I really want to understand the details. (And thanks for your reply, Bob. You may be spot-on, to my minor consternation).

Originally Posted by BobTurner

Bill,
You're asking what happens if you lie. I can only speculate that it depends on how the insurance company wants to spend its money. Possible answers:
Pay him and forget about it.
Pay him but jack up his rate at renewal. Tell other insurance companies why (there are only a few) so no one will insure him.
Hire investigators to try to discredit your story.
Look at their records to see if he has done transition training before. If so forward the info to the FAA if he does not have a LODA. If he does, use that against him.
Refuse coverage, using your own words, that this was a sightseeing flight for hire (the 'share the expenses' rule only applies when the flight was incidental transportation, e.g, you were going somewhere. Otherwise the commercial FARs apply).
etc.

[RV Wannabe]

Instruction given is required to be logged. How do you do that? I log it in my own personal logbook, not a separate instruction given book. If in your regular logbook and at a later date you have an incident the insurance company will audit your books. At this time they will see a propensity to instruct in your experimental. Could open an investigation to see if you were instructing at the time of the incident.

Mark

Originally Posted by Bill Boyd

But I'd be the first to admit I don't know all the pertinent variables. Let me try again, in a less tongue-in-cheek way:

I can imagine a cross country trip where two pilots share stick time in a plane owned by only one of them. At the conclusion of said trip, owner-CFI-pilot says to non-owner pilot-passenger, "You know what? You were the sole manipulator of the controls there for X.X hours. You could log that as PIC time, now that we know there is no possible way the flight we just concluded has resulted in an incident or any longer poses any exposure to the insurance carrier. You could maybe use those logged hours towards satisfying the currency/recency requirements for insuring your own first flight in your own RV-xxx."

How does that sound? I would submit that the risk to the insurer is absolutely not increased one iota by this action, which could be the aftermath of any successfully completed cross country in a private plane where two rated persons both touched the controls. And I doubt the insurance policy typically requires non-owners to be listed as named pilots if they are right-seat pax. Correct me if I'm wrong, here. I really want to understand the details. (And thanks for your reply, Bob. You may be spot-on, to my minor consternation).

[Bill Boyd]

The really pertinent question for me (and the reason this thread caught my attention at all) turns around the underwriting requirements for first flight coverage in a new homebuilt. I did this decades ago with Mike Segar. He no doubt has the LODA for RV transition training. I was wondering if there is an actual requirement for instruction vice experience in make and model. Clearly, the instructional angle is fraught with technical perils and nit-picks. I would think the stick time approach would not be similarly complicated - but then again, mere hours in m/m may be less than what the underwriter will want when the time comes to write a policy.

My original hypothetical did involve a sign-off by someone with CFI credentials willing to use them in a logbook, but now I'm wondering if something unofficial (right seat experience) will be of any use in getting that first-flight coverage one day.

-Stormy

[BobTurner]

Bob
I agree that it's hard to find a cfi familiar with your EAB and your avionics. I advocate a two-pronged approach. First, sit in your plane on the ground, with aux power, playing with the avionics, for many hours. Not minutes. It can be helpful to have a knowledgeable person (need not be a cfi) help out, pose scenarios, etc. Once you are comfortable with the button pushing, call up the AI and HSI displays. That should look familiar to most cfii's. Explain the basics of the panel to the cfi, and go fly. Not perfect, but the last place you want to try to learn the button pushing is in the air.

Bill, as a previous poster said, insurance companies are in business to make money, and they do that by controlling risk. Yes, letting someone else fly in cruise is low risk. But not zero (speculation is that years ago a Vans demonstrater was lost in flight after the 'passenger' pulled hard and exceeded the wing's limits). Furthermore, would an insurance company 'count' that type of experience, with no landings? I sort of doubt it. OTOH, if, say, you choose to fly phase one uninsured, then apply for insurance, you will most likely not be required to get any dual. But even if you are, at that point, it can be legally done in your airplane so it's not relevant to this discussion. But what is relevant is that getting pre-first flight training for an EAB, in a legal and financially safe (no question about insurance) way, remains a rather expensive proposition.

[RV7A Flyer]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

(speculation is that years ago a Vans demonstrater was lost in flight after the 'passenger' pulled hard and exceeded the wing's limits).

Must have been one helluva pull, but I can see it happening. My experience...first time taking up a fellow pilot (who does aerobatics) for an intro to the plane. Gave him the stick and said "show me a steep turn to the left", expecting a 60 degree bank. Nope...aerobatic style he did "Roll. Stop. Pull. Stop." At about a 90 degree bank angle, and *boom* we were at 4+ g's. Fortunately, we were light and well within utility category limits, but still...we had a little "conversation" about it, and ever after that, when we fly, we make sure during preflight that we discuss our weight/balance, category limits, and ensure the aircraft is configured properly if we're doing aerobatics (everything secured or removed, etc.).

It was...interesting.

[Piper J3]

Can I ask a general question about aviation insurance? What limits do most folks have on there policy? Mine is shown below. I will accept no hull coverage in order to get a decent premium. Thanks in advance...

--

[BobTurner]

Jim,
You have slightly less coverage than most, Standard is $1 million liability coverage outside the airplane; $100K per passenger.

This is pretty much all that's available, although some are offering $200K per passenger.

This is, imho, almost like having no insurance, if you are sued today. But short of going to Loyds of London and paying a fortune, that's all there is.

[SMO]

Originally Posted by Piper J3

What limits do most folks have on there policy?

In Canadian dollars - $2,000,000 combined single limit (includes property damage, third party and passenger bodily injury). Also includes liability associated with my hangar. Cost is $620/year. Purchased through Canadian Owners and Pilots Association.