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Anyone ever have Dynon DASB issues?

Brantel

Brantel

Well Known Member
Anyone ever have Dynon DSAB issues?

I have an issue where my DSAB setup fails shortly after power up when airplane sits in a cold hangar for a day. After they warm up, the issue goes away.

Voltage is good, wires have been checked and ohmed out 4-5 times. No charger connected, nothing on but the Dynon gear.

D100, D120, AP74 and HS34.

Problem is 100% repeatable.

On initial power up for at least a minute and after they warm up everything works normally.

Sure hope the DSAB is normally more robust than this!!!!
 
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I've seen it randomly, usually during power surges. For example cycling the starter relay (no starter yet). Wiring is correct including relay diode.

Same setup,
D100, D120, AP74, HS34
 
I see it a lot on engine startup. If system voltage dips below 10 volts you'll get it. When I do get it on engine start up, it will clear itself usually within 30 seconds.

I lately have been getting an occasional DSAB failure on my AP74. Everything else in the system works fine, i.e. I have never had a DSAB failure (D-100, D-120, HS34, and 2 AP servos). The problem first manifested itself after the plane had been in service about 50 hours since the AP74 installation. I have checked and rechecked wiring and have found no problems. Dynon says it is a wiring issue..... When I get the airplane back from the paint shop in January I'm going to insist Dynon send me a loaner unit to try to help isolate the problem.
 
I have 300 hours on my plane and the only time I have ever seen a DSAB error is if I shut off one of my units manually or when I'm starting and the EMS shuts off (but the EFIS stays on due to the internal battery). In opinion DSAB (at least as far as a D-10A and EMS-D10 interconnection is concerned) is very robust.

I no longer have the Dynon AP installed, but I had it in for about 80 hours and I never saw a DSAB error with it either (note that I did not have an AP74).

I would double-check the above comments about buss voltage.
 
Voltage is over 13 at startup. Hot Odyssee that was sitting on the Odyssee Optimizer for 24 hours before hand.

Confirmed with multimeter and on the Dynon volt meter info.

Issue is 100% repeatable as long as the units are cold and it happens at exactly the same time after boot. Nothing else on but the Dynon stuff.
 
Try powering up everything that communicates with the Dynon before booting the Dynon.
 
Already tried that....

Keep in mind for the first minute everything works as it should. EMS data can be shown on the EFIS and vise versa, HS34 knobs work and so do the AP74's.

Everything works up until the failure.

Warm it up and the failures stop happening and everything works fine.
 
Hmmm? After attaching the temperature probe in my 8A and verifying it worked (its out on the wing), I removed the wing for storage and obviously no longer have the probe connected. I now get the DSAB error which I assume that it is "on" under the menu and the unit is searching for it and is unable to find it therefore giving me the DSAB Error. Don't know if this is similar to your case Brian, but maybe its a direction to start looking.
 
Yep, This issue is not the same as when one item is just powered down or removed from the network. The entire DSAB is going down.

Dynon has issued me an RMA, they want the entire system back for testing.

I am looking at 5 days out there, 5-10 days for turnaround and 5 days back. Could be almost a month :( for me to get my brand new system back. That is unless I want to spend $200 in NDAir shipping :confused:
 
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Brian,

FWIW, like Jaime, the only time I see a DSAB error is if I shut something off. Cold (sometimes very cold) temps do not seem to cause additional failures.

What are your actual indications when things go awry...multiple DSAB warnings, instantly blank/black screens? Couldn't quite tell from the posts, and just wondering'.

My neighbor Greg Arehart recently had some issues with his D100, which appeared to be cold induced, but also seemed to be degrading day by day, if I recall correctly. His D120 was fine under the same temps.

He sent his D100 back to Dynon last week, and I've not heard anything further yet. It would be interesting to hear what was found, and see if it could apply to you (even though your failure is system-wide and his was not). His thread is also in this section.

Also, were all your tests in the cold, or did this also happen in a warm environment? Not sure if you bench checked it in a nice cozy spot before the install and had it all work fine, or if it was working fine in the plane until the wx went cold there. I'm figuring its all in the hangar now, so was thinking perhaps, since you have to pull it all out, maybe you could bring it home, wire/power it up and see if it happens in a warm area on a bench. Might be too hard if the panel and harnesses are permanently installed in the plane, but it might confirm or rule out the cold start as the culprit. Perhaps that is what Dynon will do anyway.

Feeling your pain man...and hoping its readily explainable (clear smoking gun!). Saw your other post on the AP-74 not upgrading the firmware...did you ever get that fixed? Any chance this problem cropped up during the multiple firmware updates, resets and hair pulling sessions you must've been having in that process? Seems the entire system can be a bit finicky if a firmware update goes foul. I had to send my D100 back when an update failed midway through (self induced, as I accidently tried to do the update on the EFIS internal battery).

Definitely interested in how this plays out, and best of luck!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Perhaps not coincidentally, the random DSAB failure on my AP74 began when it started getting colder this fall. However, the DSAB failure seems to start after I've been flying a while (after the system is good and warmed up). The last time I had the airplane before delivery to Glo Custom in the DFW area, it failed right as I was entering Class B DFW airspace, and at the end of a ~1000 nm trip from Virginia. As mentioned before I am relatively certain I do not have a wiring issue. It's been a head scratcher for sure. Enough so that I will not fly IMC until I can figure it out.
 
Hard to believe

Brantel said:
Voltage is over 13 at startup. Hot Odyssee that was sitting on the Odyssee Optimizer for 24 hours before hand.

Confirmed with multimeter and on the Dynon volt meter info.

Issue is 100% repeatable as long as the units are cold and it happens at exactly the same time after boot. Nothing else on but the Dynon stuff.
Click to expand...

Brian,
I find it almost impossible to believe that your battery voltage stays at 13 volts while engaging the starter. It is common for a 2 to 3 volt drop in system voltage when the starter is engaged. This assumes that the spark plugs are in the engine [compression].
Put a digital volt meter on the battery and watch the reading with the engine cranking.
My comments are irrelevant if the instrument panel is not powered up until after engine start.
Charlie Kuss
 
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chaskuss said:
Brian,
I find it almost impossible to believe that your battery voltage stays at 13 volts while engaging the starter.
Click to expand...

I agree. In my setup I have a firewall mounted battery and therefore a short cable run to the starter. Even with that, I see around 10 volts while cranking. Since my Dynon system comes alive with the master switch, whenever buss voltage dips below 10 or so I get the DSAB failure. Mike at Dynon confirms voltage at this level will cause the DSAB failure.
 
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Guys, I should have been more clear....Startup of the Dynon system, not the engine....The engine start is not at play here as this happens before the engine start.

My procedure will be to only run the EMS before start and after start kick on the EFIS, AP74, HS34. The EFIS is the bus master.

chaskuss said:
Brian,
I find it almost impossible to believe that your battery voltage stays at 13 volts while engaging the starter. It is common for a 2 to 3 volt drop in system voltage when the starter is engaged. This assumes that the spark plugs are in the engine [compression].
Put a digital volt meter on the battery and watch the reading with the engine cranking.
My comments are irrelevant if the instrument panel is not powered up until after engine start.
Charlie Kuss
Click to expand...

flickroll said:
I agree. In my setup I have a firewall mounted battery and therefore a short cable run to the starter. Even with that, I see around 10 volts while cranking. Since my Dynon system comes alive with the master switch, whenever buss voltage dips below 10 or so I get the DSAB failure. Mike at Dynon confirms voltage at this level will cause the DSAB failure.
Click to expand...
 
rvmills said:
What are your actual indications when things go awry...multiple DSAB warnings, instantly blank/black screens? Couldn't quite tell from the posts, and just wondering'.
Click to expand...

After boot everything works dandy then about a minute into the boot, the dsab goes offline. Sometimes only the EMS announces it and sometimes both the EMS and EFIS announce it. Sometimes I get device failure notices as well for all devices but sometimes I dont. Always the AP74 and HS34 lights all come on bright when this happens. A power reset to all will bring it back for another minute. Then same thing. At some point they warm up and this issue goes away and all works perfectly.

rvmills said:
Also, were all your tests in the cold, or did this also happen in a warm environment?
Click to expand...

I have not tried since I noticed this issue to do it when it is warm as it has been cold here ever since this issue cropped up. On the first two days of full testing in my craft after getting everything installed, it did not do this but those were warm days. Not sure there was a failure or if the issue always existed.

rvmills said:
Feeling your pain man...and hoping its readily explainable (clear smoking gun!).
Click to expand...

Me to! I would die if Dynon comes back and states they cannot find a problem. But for me I know it is 100% repeatable below 32F.

rvmills said:
Saw your other post on the AP-74 not upgrading the firmware...did you ever get that fixed? Any chance this problem cropped up during the multiple firmware updates, resets and hair pulling sessions you must've been having in that process? Seems the entire system can be a bit finicky if a firmware update goes foul.
Click to expand...

The entire system other than the AP74 upgraded normally. This is the only device I have that must be upgraded over the DASB instead of with its own serial port. These two have to be related. I was however able to finally get a full firmware backup and upgrade with no errors. When it works, it works great.
 
:)
Brantel said:
Me to! I would die if Dynon comes back and states they cannot find a problem. But for me I know it is 100% repeatable below 32F.
Click to expand...

This is a problem.... They'll be testing the system in their shop which will be around 70 F (unless they're trying to lower their carbon footprint :)). Since this only happens to you at less than 32 F it will be pretty difficult for them to replicate in the shop. I bet they're gonna say everything is fine! :eek:
 
flickroll said:
:)

This is a problem.... They'll be testing the system in their shop which will be around 70 F (unless they're trying to lower their carbon footprint :)). Since this only happens to you at less than 32 F it will be pretty difficult for them to replicate in the shop. I bet they're gonna say everything is fine! :eek:
Click to expand...

They can stick em in the freezer... They know how to cold soak devices as they have a pic on their blog on how they cold soaked their new Skyview. I bet 32F is not to hard to find right now where they are at.

Also, the condition might still exist at a higher temp, I don't know as it has been around 32 each time I have been able to test.
 
Brantel said:
The entire system other than the AP74 upgraded normally. This is the only device I have that must be upgraded over the DASB instead of with its own serial port. These two have to be related. I was however able to finally get a full firmware backup and upgrade with no errors. When it works, it works great.
Click to expand...

So you were able to bring it all back to 5.1.1, then up to 5.2, including the AP-74...cool!

When I first intalled the servos and AP-74, I remember holding my breath as the update progressed, waiting for the program to see and ID them, and then upgrade them. Its been a while, and I can't remember if it did the servos first or the AP-74 first during the upgrade. I'm just thinking this through and scratchin' my head, and wondering (as you mentioned earlier) if the servos not yet being in your network is creating, or has something to do with, this issue.

Since the AP-74 has functions besides turning the AP on or off (i.e., moving the heading/altitude bugs and setting the altimeter with the value knob) it seems that it could be OK without the servos in the net. Then again, it does have the AP on-off and mode buttons...have you tried pushing that AP button or mode buttons to see what happens (if so, did it give a DSAB warning, like "no servos found"?)

And then there's the HS-34/AP-74 combo...they have some crossover functions (I believe...like those bug and altimeter settings), so maybe the combo of the 74/34 needs the servos in the net to prevent confusion between those devices. Just dunno. (Maybe if it was an AP-76...;))

Or maybe it's just the cold...but that doesn't seem to be a universal symptom in the field. I haven't upgraded to 5.2, and don't have cold issues, so could it be a 5.2 bug? (Don't know if Greg A is at 5.2, or if Flickroll is at 5.2) probably not the issue, but might be a question to ask Dynon. Did this cold DSAB failure happen with your system both at 5.1.1 and 5.2?

Really just grasping at straws here, just talking it through hoping to stumble onto something. Maybe this thread will give you a few more questions to ask Dynon as they test it.

I've got the airplane down for various maint items (playing with my wingtips and pulling the mag for 500 hr service) but I can power up the avionics when I get home Tuesday, and see if I get any warnings...the hangar has been C-C-C-Cold lately, so it'll be a good test...then the heat goes on! Will let ya know if I see any oddities!

Hoping you get some good news soon!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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serial buss voltage

Brian,
Have you tried monitoring your buss voltage on a cold soak startup?
I have lots of experience with buss data losses at my day job.(auto mechanic)
The devices share the same buss, and see the same voltage on the buss when all is well. Comm loss on the buss is most likely to be a short to ground on the buss wiring, or a device on the buss pulling that voltage low. I see it every single day of my life!!
Here I will suggest a way to narrow the fault down to a particular device, and hopefully save you some shipping and packing hassles!
Monitor the data buss voltage with a DVOM. See if you can actually see the buss voltage dip when the fault occurs. If so, than remove the buss pin, at the connector shell, from one device at a time and repeat the test. When voltage stabilizes, you have the culprit.
I am a Dynon owner, and have only seen the DSAB message one time. Just for a second, enroute, and it has never been repeated in over a hundred hours. Since then I have updated the software, and removed the null modem from the data buss.
Early on, I had an attitude issue with my D100. Dynon tested and replaced my unit with no hassles, and great attention to my situation. Great company.

Hope this helps,
Chris
 
rvmills said:
So you were able to bring it all back to 5.1.1, then up to 5.2, including the AP-74...cool
Click to expand...

The EFIS came from Dynon as 5.2 everythign else came at 5.1.1 except the compass which was 4 something. I upgraded the compass and the HS34 and the compass without a glitch. The AP74 failed many times to go to 5.2 but was always able to be restared at 5.1.1 except on the final try it failed but then said it was 5.2 and would not rejoin the network. One last try on it and it did go thru the whole process without a glitch. I think for the AP74 there was an issue with the factory 5.1.1 load.

rvmills said:
Since the AP-74 has functions besides turning the AP on or off (i.e., moving the heading/altitude bugs and setting the altimeter with the value knob) it seems that it could be OK without the servos in the net. Then again, it does have the AP on-off and mode buttons...have you tried pushing that AP button or mode buttons to see what happens (if so, did it give a DSAB warning, like "no servos found"?)
Click to expand...

Dynon states that not having servos would not cause this. Each device has its own unique id tags in the DASB stream so the master knows what each device is and what it does. The EFIS will not allow an AP configuration because it does not detect servos so any AP related function just does not do anything. This includes all the buttons on the AP74. The knob works just as it should when it works. All the buttons are dead and do nothing.


rvmills said:
Or maybe it's just the cold...but that doesn't seem to be a universal symptom in the field. I haven't upgraded to 5.2, and don't have cold issues, so could it be a 5.2 bug? (Don't know if Greg A is at 5.2, or if Flickroll is at 5.2) probably not the issue, but might be a question to ask Dynon. Did this cold DSAB failure happen with your system both at 5.1.1 and 5.2?
Click to expand...

I never had the entire system at 5.2 since the EFIS came at 5.1.1 It was warmer on my first day of working with it when everything first came online. Since then each work session has been cold.

It is all going back Monday as Dynon confirms that something is wrong with at least one of the units. They gave me an RMA. I sure hope they can find it.

This is like buying a 72" HD tv for the Superbowl and having it fail out of the box and sending it in for repair and not getting it back till Memorial Day.:(
 
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Feelin your pain

I feel your pain. I was going to move my plane to the airport yesterday, but the day before I tried to update my D10A and it locked up trying to load checklists. I had to take it out of the panel, and send it back to them. So, I delayed the move to the airport, as it's easier and more comfortable to work under the panel in my warm dry basement. So I'll work on wheel fairings and whatever else I can make up... Hang in there, we are so close. You, closer than me, and your system, much bigger and more complex than mine. But I understand and sympathize completely.

Greg
 
Brantel said:
The EFIS came from Dynon as 5.2 everythign else came at 5.1.1 except the compass which was 4 something.

<snip>

I never had the entire system at 5.2 since the EFIS came at 5.1.1 It was warmer on my first day of working with it when everything first came online. Since then each work session has been cold.

It is all going back Monday as Dynon confirms that something is wrong with at least one of the units. They gave me an RMA. I sure hope they can find it.

This is like buying a 72" HD tv for the Superbowl and having it fail out of the box and sending it in for repair and not getting it back till Memorial Day.:(
Click to expand...

Brian,

Roger all that...figuring you mean you never had the entire system at 5.1.1, since the EFIS came at 5.2. So there's no way to tell if it affects systems that are fully at 5.1.1. I'm thinking of waiting till you hear back from Dynon before I upgrade. 5.2 came out a couple days before I left for the Rocket 100 race, and I didn't want to chance dorking it up. Haven't taken the time to do it yet.

For other readers, is anyone else at 5.2 having similar issues, or is anyone at 5.2 without issues at all...AOK? (Not trying to start a rumor, just investigatin'! 5.2 is probably not the issue, as Brian, it sounds like the problem happened during the upgrade process...at least for the AP-74...and after).

Good news is that Dynon wants to see the units back and are not saying "its the wiring". Good folks, and I'll bet they turn it in time for the "Superbowl"...though that comment sure hits the mark. Hang in there...the home team will win the game in the end!! :)

Cheers,
Bob
 
rvmills said:
Good news is that Dynon wants to see the units back and are not saying "its the wiring".
Click to expand...

'It's the wiring' is what Dynon told me about my AP74 losing DSAB. I have checked and double checked wiring so I know that's not the issue. The -8 is at the paint shop now so I can't attempt to upgrade to 5.2 or to reload 5.1.1. I'm definitely interested in hearing what Dynon comes up with Brian's stuff.
 
"It's the wiring" is what Dynon told me when I was pulling my hair out on a DSAB problem when we wired up Louise's panel. And despite wringing things out several times and standing on my head under th epanel....they turned out to be right - a barely recessed socket in a Dsub connector. Very hard to find.

Paul
 
This is an example of the really great GRT feature of recorded data files that can be transported for live data debugging. "We played your demo file. All the data is there, but you have pin A and pin B reversed on connector X on display unit Z. Swap those two pins and it will be fine."
 
Ironflight said:
"It's the wiring" is what Dynon told me when I was pulling my hair out on a DSAB problem when we wired up Louise's panel. And despite wringing things out several times and standing on my head under th epanel....they turned out to be right - a barely recessed socket in a Dsub connector. Very hard to find.

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul, I brought the units home to box them up and decided to make up a test harness to super duper ensure that the harness in the plane is not the issue.

Guess what..... Same issue showed up shortly after power up.... Units were still cold from the hangar. Once they warmed up. No issue.

This test harness only had power and DSAB leads and the four devices and was powered off the wife's minivan battery.

So I guess that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for wiring issues.

I have previously double checked all connectors in the plane for pins that were not fully seated. Stein's work was great in my case.

scard said:
This is an example of the really great GRT feature of recorded data files that can be transported for live data debugging. "We played your demo file. All the data is there, but you have pin A and pin B reversed on connector X on display unit Z. Swap those two pins and it will be fine."
Click to expand...

While Dynon does record a ton of data, I do not think they have the ability to play it back. That would be a nice feature to have.
 
DYNON D180/AP

I HAVE HAD MY UNIT AT DYNON FOR THE PAST 3 WEEKS (THEY RECEIVED IT DEC 21ST). THEY ARE ATTEMPTING TO SOLVE MY DSAB ISSUE. I HAVE A PITCH SERVO ONLY TAPPED INTO MY FLIGHTDECK 180 ON MY RV9A. AFTER ENGAGING THE ALT HOLD IT FAILS AFTER A FEW SECONDS. READING "ERR" AND THE AP DISENGAGES. WOULD SAY LOST DSAB CONNECTION. DID ALL THE DSAB TROUBLE SHOOTING STUFF. ALL OTHER FLIGHT/ENG FUNCTIONS APPEAR NORMAL. THEY FIRST THOUGHT IT WAS IN THE SERVO AND AFTER WAITING ON PARTS AND SOME TESTING FOUND IT TO BE IN THE BOX. TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT THEY HAVE BASICALLY REBUILT ALMOST THE ENTIRE D180 UNIT. I STILL HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED MY UNIT BACK, (DUE BACK IN NASHVILLE JAN 15TH). WILL LET YOU KNOW IF PROBLEM RESOLVED AFTER REINSTALL AND TESTING. ADVISE CHECKING WARRANTY DATES (3 YRS) BEFORE PUTTING OFF CONTACTING DYNON TO ADDRESS ISSUE. EMAIL JOE AT [email protected] IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS.
 
Joe,

Just so you know - posting in all capital letters is considered equivalent to SHOUTING on the internet.

If you are a "challenged" typer, just type in all lower case - we get it that some folks are not as comfortable typing and won't "grade your punctuation."

Thanks!

:D
 
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