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Spinning one's RV 8

donaziza

Well Known Member
Got a question for you guys smarter than me if I may. I've never intentionally spun my 8. But I do know the PARE procedure--just in case--like maybe coming out of a loop or a barrel roll etc.

My question is:
Does one apply all 4 steps simultaneously? or
power, then
Aileron then
rudder then
elevator??

Thanx guys.:rolleyes:
 
My 2 cents

Power and aileron simultaneously. (Aileron aggravates the spin)
Rudder full opposite until rotation stops
Elevator ease out of the dive

Works everytime without over stressing the aircraft.

DP
 
Got a question for you guys smarter than me if I may. I've never intentionally spun my 8. But I do know the PARE procedure--just in case--like maybe coming out of a loop or a barrel roll etc.

My question is:
Does one apply all 4 steps simultaneously? or
power, then
Aileron then
rudder then
elevator??

Thanx guys.:rolleyes:

Idle, neutral ailerons, full opposite rudder while pushing forward to break the stall. Or, if all else fails, idle, and release the controls. If you're not comfortable enough to do that, find someone who has a super D to take you out for a spin ride. Then go out and spin your -8 intentionally. You'll learn a lot. They really aren't anything to be afraid of.
 
Must get some basic instruction in acro. These planes are no different than others. Basic spin recovery techniques are about the same in most aircraft.
 
Must get some basic instruction in acro. These planes are no different than others. Basic spin recovery techniques are about the same in most aircraft.

+1 What Jerry said.... You will want to build up some muscle memory so you won't have to think about how to recover from a spin. You can read all about spin recovery procedures but to quote Mike Tyson, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

Be safe, have fun!
 
No disrespect guys, but no one is really answering the question the way I asked it. Does one do all 4 steps simultaneously--all 4 steps at the same exact instant?
Or does one do them one at a time, ie
Power
THEN
aileron
THEN
rudder
THEN LASTLY
elevator??

(Well, number 2 post did---partially)
 
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Rudder full opposite until rotation stops
Elevator ease out of the dive

The intent of PARE is NOT to apply rudder and wait for the spin rotation to stop before unloading the elevator. Waiting for that to happen will spin you into the ground in some airplanes. The elevator is PART of the spin rotation recovery, not the just the control that pulls you out of the dive. The point of PARE is to avoid applying elevator before the rudder and accelerating the spin, though plenty of airplanes will stop the spin rotation amazingly fast the moment you apply rudder even AFTER you've accelerated the spin with elevator first. But that is bad general technique and forget it. The idea behind PARE is to lead with the rudder and follow a moment later with the elevator. The other idea behind PARE is to give you the best chance at recovering a spin regardless of the aircraft type you're flying. But the OP's question is so basic, that some primary spin training is needed. RVs aren't special at all when it comes to spin recovery.
 
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No disrespect guys, but no one is really answering the question the way I asked it. Does one do all 4 steps simultaneously--all 4 steps at the same exact instant?
Or does one do them one at a time, ie
Power
THEN
aileron
THEN
rudder
THEN LASTLY
elevator??

(Well, number 2 post did---partially)

Have you done spin training in another aircraft in the past?

If you have not, I would highly recommend you find a flight school with an Aerobat or a Citabria or a Decathlon (or something like) and go up with a CFI who will spin you nine ways to Sunday so you can get a feel for correct and and incorrect spin recovery procedures.

I make it point to try and do this at least every other year (I don't own an aerobatic-capable airplane...yet) and I still feel like I learn something new every time. I encourage all of my students to do the same.

EDIT - in a feeble attempt answer your question as asked, it's....sort of? -you can't be a robot and always do everything in exact sequence - you have to fly the conditions you're in. You want the power back to prevent overspeed, you need the rudder to stop the rotation and the elevator to reduce the angle of attack on the stalled wing and the ailerons will aggravate the stall. Thinking back to my last round of spin training in the Super D, it was close to sequence, but it's not like step 1, step 2, etc....it's a flow....
 
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don't forget forward CG

Probably best to have the CG on the forward side of the envelope when you are doing this for the first few times. Thankfully this is not so hard to do on an RV-8 with a metal prop.
 
Probably best to have the CG on the forward side of the envelope when you are doing this for the first few times. Thankfully this is not so hard to do on an RV-8 with a metal prop.

This! ^^^ It will get fun/scary neutral with a couple hundred pounds in the back.
 
Here is how I chose to answer your question.

My question is:

Does one apply all 4 steps simultaneously?

NO!

I simultaneously center the stick and release the rudder pressure smartly

The spin stops almost immediately for me.

I then pull up to reduce air speed that begins to increase with a nose low profile
Add power as necessary to level off and begin cruise speed.

I rarely needed to add opposite rudder

This is my technique for MY RV8
 
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I have the same experience as Tad in a F1 Rocket. I can’t apply opposite rudder to stop the spin because as soon as I neutralize the controls it comes out of the spin. This is however with a forward CG. My spin recovery technique has always been neutralize everything then smoothly apply spin recovery control inputs if needed.
G
 
I've had the pleasure of calling Bill a friend for more than 25yrs. He is one of the highest time Pitts pilots and instructors in the world. Still going strong at 81 yrs young. I can't keep up with him.
His system works for most airplanes.

F inagin A erobaitc R ecovery T echnique.

1.Rip the power to idle.
2.Forcefully neutralize the stick and rudder pedals.
3.Look at the airspeed indicator, and once it shows 100 knots or more (roughly 1.4 times the airplane’s stall speed) …
4.Pull out of the dive.

I've flown a bunch of different aircraft in aerobatics and this WILL work for probably 99% of them. The airplanes that are known to not recover from spins should not be flown in this manner.
I've noted that if the controls are neutral it will stop spinning.

Competition spins are a different animal and the competitor is presenting the manuever to the judge and "flying" the airplane through the spin to make it look "perfect".

Mark
 
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What is the Rv-8 like for spinning and spin recovery with a passenger on board?

Be very careful! I personally do not like to do this with someone in the back. I'm sure Chuck Yeager would do just fine. Suggest you work up to it with ballast in the back.
 
What is the Rv-8 like for spinning and spin recovery with a passenger on board?



I have never spun my -8 with a passenger aboard but I regularly flew with 19 pounds of lead shot in a ballast box mounted between the front and rear spar of the horizontal stabilizer. This gave me a CG equivalent to having a 66 pound passenger aboard and put the CG 1.25 inch forward of the aft CG limit for aerobatics. I used this configuration when flying aerobatics as it made spin and snap roll entries more predictable and gave me a lighter stick for all aerobatics. Spin exits were not noticeably different except in a fully developed spin the stick would stay full aft when released and had to be purposefully pushed to slightly forward of neutral during recovery.

I would not recommend spinning your RV with a passenger on board unless you do a weight and balance calculation and insure that your airplane is well within the published weight and CG limitations for aerobatics. This probably means that few RVs could do aerobatics with much more than a 100 pound passenger aboard, and that includes the weight of parachutes for both occupants! I know these are experimental airplanes but that doesn't mean you should be experimenting with flight beyond the recommended limits and you certainly should not be doing aerobatics without proper training beforehand.

A word of caution here: When doing your weight and balance calculation remember that the CG will move aft as fuel is used, so do the calculation with the weight of fuel on board at takeoff and again with the fuel on board at the end of your aerobatic session.
 
Question

I was taught to hold the stick back (with ailerons neutral and power back) kick in opposite rudder to stop spin, then push forward on the stick (immediately) until you're flying again and then pull out of dive.

This seemed counter intuitive to me. My instructor explained that the rudder is more effective in stopping the rotation because the tail is closer to horizontal (less nose down) with stick back.

We practiced numerous spin recoveries in his Super D using the method and it worked well. Didn't try it with neutral stick so I can't comment on that method. What do the experts say? John
 
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I was taught to hold the stick back (with ailerons neutral and power back) kick in opposite rudder to stop spin, then push forward on the stick (immediately) until you're flying again and then pull out of dive.

This seemed counter intuitive to me. My instructor explained that the rudder is more effective in stopping the rotation because the tail is closer to horizontal (less nose down) with stick back.

We practiced numerous spin recoveries in his Super D using the method and it worked well. Didn't try it with neutral stick so I can't comment on that method. What do the experts say? John

Lots of airplanes will allow opposite rudder alone to stop the spin rotation while holding the stick full aft, but some airplanes will spin to the ground with opposite rudder while holding the stick aft. Teaching this method is not good technique, and is not consistent with the FAA's advisory regarding the PARE recovery method.

For those airplanes that will stop the rotation with rudder alone, the recovery is not nearly as quick or efficient as unloading the elevator along with the opposite rudder. So yeah it may work, but it doesn't work as well as traditional spin recovery inputs.

In my opinion any instructor teaching a student to stop the rotation with rudder while holding the stick full aft is teaching bad technique, which can be dangerous in some airplanes.
 
Lots of airplanes will allow opposite rudder alone to stop the spin rotation while holding the stick full aft, but some airplanes will spin to the ground with opposite rudder while holding the stick aft. Teaching this method is not good technique, and is not consistent with the FAA's advisory regarding the PARE recovery method.

For those airplanes that will stop the rotation with rudder alone, the recovery is not nearly as quick or efficient as unloading the elevator along with the opposite rudder. So yeah it may work, but it doesn't work as well as traditional spin recovery inputs.

In my opinion any instructor teaching a student to stop the rotation with rudder while holding the stick full aft is teaching bad technique, which can be dangerous in some airplanes.

Your not really unloading the elevator, what your doing is changing the angle of attack on the wing and allowing it to develop lift. Even if you are able to hold wings level with full aft stick, which is more of a chore than you might imagine the aircraft wing remains stalled so you must bring the stick forward enough to change the angle of attack and allow the wing to fly... I normally briskly apply full opposite rudder and check forward on the stick for a quick stop of the rotation, controls are neutralized immediately after the spin stops.. In many aircraft you can simply let go of everything and most will stop spinning however if your competing in aerobatics you can't use this method as you are scored on recovery that stops exactly at a certain rotation.
You use the same technique when you recover from a snap roll which is nothing more than an accelerated horizontal tail spin.
 
-8 Spin Recovery

I've had the pleasure of calling Bill a friend for more than 25yrs. He is one of the highest time Pitts pilots and instructors in the world. Still going strong at 81 yrs young. I can't keep up with him.
His system works for most airplanes.

F inagin A erobaitc R ecovery T echnique.

1.Rip the power to idle.
2.Forcefully neutralize the stick and rudder pedals.
3.Look at the airspeed indicator, and once it shows 100 knots or more (roughly 1.4 times the airplane’s stall speed) …
4.Pull out of the dive.

I've flown a bunch of different aircraft in aerobatics and this WILL work for probably 99% of them. The airplanes that are known to not recover from spins should not be flown in this manner.
I've noted that if the controls are neutral it will stop spinning.

Competition spins are a different animal and the competitor is presenting the manuever to the judge and "flying" the airplane through the spin to make it look "perfect".

Mark

Having spun my -8 many times, I feel qualified to comment on this. My -8 will only stop rotation before "neutralizing" the elevator if the spin in not fully developed. If I spin more than 2 turns, it winds up pretty good and I have to use true positive recovery techniques to stop it. In other words, opposite rudder alone does not stop the spin rotation when I've done more than 2 turns, and neutral rudder definitely won't do it. In this scenario, I need to apply full opposite rudder AND unload the wings by moving the the stick a little forward of neutral before the spin will stop. This is in an -8 with an angel valve -360 and a heavy 74" Hartzell BA prop.


Skylor
 
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I've had the pleasure of calling Bill a friend for more than 25yrs. He is one of the highest time Pitts pilots and instructors in the world. Still going strong at 81 yrs young. I can't keep up with him.
His system works for most airplanes.

F inagin A erobaitc R ecovery T echnique.

1.Rip the power to idle.
2.Forcefully neutralize the stick and rudder pedals.
3.Look at the airspeed indicator, and once it shows 100 knots or more (roughly 1.4 times the airplane’s stall speed) …
4.Pull out of the dive.

I've flown a bunch of different aircraft in aerobatics and this WILL work for probably 99% of them. The airplanes that are known to not recover from spins should not be flown in this manner.
I've noted that if the controls are neutral it will stop spinning.

Competition spins are a different animal and the competitor is presenting the manuever to the judge and "flying" the airplane through the spin to make it look "perfect".

Mark
Neutralise rudder? Or full opposite rudder? Not sure if you said what you meant��

Jono
 
Neutralizing and holding these inputs will stop the spin.
There is video somewhere, a quick search was a bust, showing the stick being released during a spin. It floats to near center during rotation.
The Beggs-Mueller technique is power off, hands off, opposite rudder and recover.
Neutralizing the rudder will stop the induced yaw, and with the wing being able to fly, not stalled, will recover.
Stories are many of pilots bailing out and watching the airplane fly away.
 
My 8 will come out of a fully developed spin by power to idle, controls neutral, it takes a turn or two to stop but the slightest of opposite rudder will shorten the time to recover. Most A/C that are in balance will just point to the Center of the Earth when all controls are let go. The RV's really are a basic design.
 
:confused: Moving the stick from full aft to neutral or slightly forward IS by definition unloading the elevator.

Wasn’t trying to bad mouth your comment :)...as sure you were unloading your elevator but you can unload the elevator in normal flight as anytime you change from descending or climbing back to level flight your unloading the elevator. My point was in that situation you need to get the wing flying again and to do that you must change the angle of attack as that’s the only thing that will allow the wing to fly. We are talking about interpretation so yes your unloading the elevator but in training the student needs to have a good understanding that stalling is about angle of attack and you can stall in level flight, descending flight, climbing flight basically at any attitude and it’s all about angle of attack.
 
Enough already!

I hope this long, detailed discussion of spins doesn't discourage those new to aerobatics to have second thoughts about exploring the outer regions of their flight envelope. The RV series are quite capable aerobatic airplanes that can safely perform basic aerobatics without fear of breaking the airplane or getting into some unrecoverable attitude. I don't care what spin recovery method you choose, the RV will recover easily. And when you get serious about competition aerobatics you will be able to consistently recover on the heading you choose.

So clear your mind of all the former nit picking and get some basic aerobatic training, practice at a safe altitude and HAVE FUN!
 
I couldn’t agree more. PARE, FART, Beggs/Mueller all work for me in my RV-8 after 1 turn or 10 turns. I tried them all alone so I don’t know hat happens if you have a passenger. So just pick your favorite one.

Oliver
 
Having spun my -8 many times, I feel qualified to comment on this. My -8 will only stop rotation before "neutralizing" the elevator if the spin in not fully developed. If I spin more than 2 turns, it winds up pretty good and I have to use true positive recovery techniques to stop it. In other words, opposite rudder alone does not stop the spin rotation when I've done more than 2 turns, and neutral rudder definitely won't do it. In this scenario, I need to apply full opposite rudder AND unload the wings by moving the the stick a little forward of neutral before the spin will stop. This is in an -8 with an angel valve -360 and a heavy 74" Hartzell BA prop.

Neutralise rudder? Or full opposite rudder? Not sure if you said what you meant��

You may not be aware that post #14 describes an emergency spin recovery technique which involves neutralizing the rudder, the elevator, and the ailerons, and waiting for the airplane to start flying again. RV-8 pilots here indicate this method works, but you can and should test for yourself in your own airplane. The reason this method exists is to have something to fall back on if you find yourself in an accidental spin and are confused about the direction of rotation and whether you're upright or inverted. Anyone who thinks there's nearly no chance of this happening hasn't been though the matrix of advanced upright and inverted spin modes. This emergency method removes the spin situational awareness on which rudder is "opposite", and which elevator direction reduces AOA if you're really messed up. This can happen doing aerobatics. Probably not so much by doing barrel rolls and granny loops in an RV, but dedicated aerobatic pilots doing more expansive maneuvers need to have one of the two emergency techniques in their back pocket. It does work in nearly all aerobatic airplanes. It has saved lives. It's not meant to be a substitute or replacement for PARE. PARE is what you will typically do when you're in control of the airplane. PARE is not considered an "emergency" spin recovery technique for loss of control situations.

jpowell13 pretty much has it right!

But he was describing a spin recovery technique which you state will not recover a developed spin in your RV-8. Once again, I do not recommend learning his technique (waiting for the rotation to stop with opposite rudder and full aft stick) as a general spin recovery method.
 
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You may not be aware that post #14 describes an emergency spin recovery technique which involves neutralizing the rudder, the elevator, and the ailerons, and waiting for the airplane to start flying again. RV-8 pilots here indicate this method works, but you can and should test for yourself in your own airplane. The reason this method exists is to have something to fall back on if you find yourself in an accidental spin and are confused about the direction of rotation and whether you're upright or inverted. Anyone who thinks there's nearly no chance of this happening hasn't been though the matrix of advanced upright and inverted spin modes. This emergency method removes the spin situational awareness on which rudder is "opposite", and which elevator direction reduces AOA if you're really messed up. This can happen doing aerobatics. Probably not so much by doing barrel rolls and granny loops in an RV, but dedicated aerobatic pilots doing more expansive maneuvers need to have one of the two emergency techniques in their back pocket. It does work in nearly all aerobatic airplanes. It has saved lives. It's not meant to be a substitute or replacement for PARE. PARE is what you will typically do when you're in control of the airplane. PARE is not considered an "emergency" spin recovery technique for loss of control situations.
Thanks for the explanation
 
But he was describing a spin recovery technique which you state will not recover a developed spin in your RV-8. Once again, I do not recommend learning his technique (waiting for the rotation to stop with opposite rudder and full aft stick) as a general spin recovery method.

You’re right and I mis-read his post.

Skylor
 
Spin recovery

I am an ex military test pilot, ex airline pilot and present RV8 owner/pilot. I have spun many aircraft, in fact I suppose all aircraft that were spinnable I have spun either as far as a test profile, or my over enthusiastic air combat.
In all aircraft that have been demonstrated capable of recovery, there is one certain method of recovery.
Immediate actions..
.
Throttle closed
Ailerons neutral
Full opposite rudder
Stick progressively forward until rotation stops.

BE PATIENT! If the spin does not immediately recover immediately. Many pilots have found themselves in trouble by fiddling with the controls when the spin is slow to recover.

If the recovery is delayed....CHECK THROTTLE CLOSED
VISUALLY CHECK NEUTRAL AILERONS.

As a last resort APPLY IN SPIN AILERON. BUT this is a last resort action.

NEVER, NEVER, ADD POWER. it is impossible to power out of a spin in a light aircraft. What will happen with power is that the spin will flatten.

If you notice the speed increasing, you are NOT in a spin, you are in a spiral dive.

It is essential to have ailerons neutral and throttle closed, some reliable aircraft become unrecoverable or delayed with ailerons not neutral ( Yak52 ) some if the power is not at idle (Cessna 150)

Finally, except for specific reasons, aerobatic display, or flight test, there is absolutely no value in continuing a spin into an ESTABLISHED SPIN......1 1/2 turns. What we should be practicing is recovery from the INCIPIENT spin. In other words, no more than one rotation. but in fact the recovery should be with minimum loss of altitude.

Follow FARs. Wear a parachute!
 
Spins

Never never power out is excellent advice for anyone who does not have EXTENSIVE spin experience. However most high performance aerobatic aircraft will consistently recover from a spin quicker with full power than with idle power. In the SU26 or 29 a full power upright flat spin will stop in 1/8 turn by applying full opposite rudder simultaneously with full forward stick and full in spin aileron.
 
Spins

That is an interesting reply. I have no experience in either an SU26 or 29. I would like to experience recovery with full power. I do have a fair amount of time in the Yak 50 and 52. That technique won’t work with them, in fact the stick forces (two hands) are considerable during recovery from a flat spin.

I also have a great deal of spinning experience in swept wing jet aircraft. Adding power in those second and third generation jet fighters that I flew would lock it into a spin. The other gotcha was not having the ailerons perfectly in neutral. In fact on many there was a white spot on the panel for that reason. No spot, the aircraft was unacceptable. As I remember the Yaks that I flew had the same white spot on the panel.

What I find of concern, are the those who promote techniques that MAY work with some aircraft, such as neutralize the controls, or even let go of the controls.
The problem there is that although it may work with some, it won’t work with many. We should be encouraging the tried and true method that will work on ALL aircraft that are capable of recovering...... some will not recover using any method.
 
Spins

The Mueller/Beggs hands off recovery has been in use for at least forty years. The aircraft that do not respond to this method are well documented and include the Cessna 150 and stock Chipmunk.
I have never flown a Yak. The 52 was described to me as a "nasty spinning sob".
The first time I saw a full power spin recovery was with another pilot in a Pitts S2B, flying a Sportsman sequence. After recovering from the initial shock I thought **** that is the best spin recovery I have ever seen. I saw it many more times in the Pitts.
 
Spinning

That is interesting about the Pitts, I would like to see it demonstrated. However I still think it is poor technique to let the controls go. If one method has been proven to be effective in virtually all aircraft since World War1 when it was developed, why re invent the wheel for a method which will not work in all aircraft.
I wouldn’t describe the Yak 52 and 50 to be SOBs in a spin. The one thing that must be watched is being meticulous about the power being at idle and the ailerons neutral. Additionally, I know of several Yaks reluctant to recover because the full spin recovery methods were not used.

Recovering from a flat spin after full power,.... throttle idle, needs full opposite rudder which requires a surprising force, full in spin aileron. Again quite heavy stick force, then stick progressively forward until the rate of rotation increases considerably, then suddenly stops. If you are not paying attention, it is easy to slip into an inverted spin. On thinking about it, I suppose that might be considered to be an SOB....?
 
spins

The Meuller/Beggs recovery should be considered an emergency spin recovery method, to be used when normal recovery has failed. In the early to mid 70's when IAC was expanding rapidly, a disconcerting number of pilots were spinning into the ground, almost always with fatal results. There is absolutely no question that Mueller/Beggs significantly reduced the spin accident rate.
Another significant factor in reduced spin accident rate is the availability of high quality aerobatic instruction in many more locations than was available in early IAC days.
that combined with insurance requirements means that in most cases todays aerobatic pilot has been exposed to a full spin training course if they are insuring any type of high performance aerobatic airplane.
Regarding use of ailerons I have seen some RV spin videos where it appeared the ailerons were in a slight outspin configuration in a normal upright spin. This slightly reduces the recovery effort. Inspin aileron significantly enhances the spin recovery. For an upright left rudder spin inspin aileron is stick to the left.
In an upright power off spin in the Pitts S2B, the first turn is somewhat sluggish and a precise recovery on a point is somewhat of a guessing game. In competetion a vertical downline is required as soon as the rotation stops. By almost immediately accelerating the spin with forward stick while applieing full power the nose will drop significantly .The rotation can be stopped much more accurately. The pitch attitude will be much closer to vertical and the yaw and pitch attitude can be quickly blended into the required vertical line. My sense is that most pilots competing at the Advanced or Unlimited level are doing this to some degree.
Once again I am not advocating this for the average pilot. I am simply stating that in all the high performance aerobatic airplanes I have flown it works and works well.
 
Mueller/Beggs Decathlon

The Mueller/Beggs hands off recovery has been in use for at least forty years. The aircraft that do not respond to this method are well documented and include the Cessna 150 and stock Chipmunk.
I have never flown a Yak. The 52 was described to me as a "nasty spinning sob".
The first time I saw a full power spin recovery was with another pilot in a Pitts S2B, flying a Sportsman sequence. After recovering from the initial shock I thought **** that is the best spin recovery I have ever seen. I saw it many more times in the Pitts.

I know for a fact Mueller/Beggs doesn’t work in a Decathlon either:

Instructor: I want you to enter a spin then take your hands and feet off of the controls.
Me:OK
(enters spin)
Instructor: Let go of the controls.
Me (hands and feet in the air, stick stays full aft): I’m not touching the controls.
Instructor (laughing): Oh my gosh, it doesn’t work! I can’t believe it doesn’t work! OK, recover normally...​


Skylor
 
Spins

Mueller/Beggs is let go of the stick and apply full rudder opposite the yaw. The hands and feet off the controls is a different procedure.
 
However I still think it is poor technique to let the controls go.

It's not. Beggs-Mueller is a well-established and recognized emergency recovery method in the aerobatic community. It doesn't mean let everything go, it means opposite rudder and let go of the stick. The other recognized emergency recovery method is moving all controls to neutral. The reasons these methods exists if for the cases if/when a pilot loses situational awareness on the type of spin they're in, and exactly which controls are needed to recover. As has already been said, it's not meant to be a replacement for the PARE method, and no claims have been made that any one recovery method works in all aircraft, even though either of these two methods work in 99% of advanced aerobatic aircraft. But pilots should confirm what works in their particular aircraft, if there is little existing knowledge base. But I can't think of anything but the most obscure, rare aerobatic aircraft type for which this knowledge base doesn't exist.
 
Not sure about that

I know for a fact Mueller/Beggs doesn’t work in a Decathlon either:

Instructor: I want you to enter a spin then take your hands and feet off of the controls.
Me:OK
(enters spin)
Instructor: Let go of the controls.
Me (hands and feet in the air, stick stays full aft): I’m not touching the controls.
Instructor (laughing): Oh my gosh, it doesn’t work! I can’t believe it doesn’t work! OK, recover normally...​


Skylor

I gave about 100 CFI spin sign offs a year during 2018-2019. I flew a 2005 Super Decathlon and always spun left and right and taught PARE recoveries. However, I did have a video of me solo, entering a spin at 5000’ agl and after three turns, I raised my hands, feet off the rudders and it recovered itself. I practice competition spins 4-5 times a week in my RV-8 and the 8 performs very well...the only limitation being the pilot...i.e.....me!!
 
why not the RV-8?

David,
Why are you using the Decathlon for IAC competition instead of the RV-8?:confused:
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL
 
Spinning

I think you have put your finger on the answer. If an inexperienced person cannot recover from either an intentional or unintentional spin, then I suppose letting go of the controls is not a bad last ditch effort. The difficulty with actually teaching that, is that if there is that much confusion, it probably something of a gamble which rudder to use. The other consideration is that we are striving for minimal loss of altitude. There is no way that letting go of the controls would achieve that.
I don’t know from first hand experience, but I understand that in some aircraft, letting the controls go can lead to aileron ‘float’, which will either delay or stop recovery.
As a matter of interest just check spin accidents involving aircraft that I know to be reliable using the tried and true methods as described, Yak 52/50/55. Tiger Moth, Chipmunk, Cessna 150 and many military trainers as examples. Get the recovery at all wrong and you may well be another statistic.

My only interest in this discussion is flight safety, if anyone can dream up a method which is more reliable than I have detailed, that is great
 
I'm a long time lurker, and this thread motivated me to register. I flew in all categories of aerobatic competition between 1981 and 2006 in a Decathlon, S-2A and S-1S. This year I would have got back into it at the Advanced level in my new-to-me monoplane if it weren't for Covid. My next and last plane likely will be an RV-8.

I think what is missing from this thread are specific statements about what problems are solved by the emergency recovery techniques. It may be difficult for people to choose what works best for them or to justify spin training if they don't understand what can go wrong.

No one has described the trap in the standard recovery method, PARE (throttle off and ailerons neutral, rudder opposite the yaw, then forward stick for an inside spin). If you are too aggressive with the forward stick it is possible to transition smoothly with no hesitation into an outside spin that will not stop because the opposite rudder is now the correct rudder, the yaw continues in what can appear to be the same direction and the forward stick keeps the plane in the outside spin.

To apply the appropriate PARE recovery for an outside spin that started inside you first need to recognize that is what happened. If the original inside spin had the plane nose down beyond roughly 60 degrees it is possible to miss the change to inverted if the outside spin is also steep. You may think this should be hard to miss, as should the change to negative g, but I know of two crashes that were observed by very experienced aerobatic pilots and this was almost certainly the explanation. In one case, at Rocky Mountain House, AB, a prominent aerobatic coach talked to the pilot all the way down and couldn't convince him to apply the correct anti-spin controls in time.

There is an illusion that can make it hard to identify the direction of yaw in an outside spin. The spin axis points to a spot on the ground that is normally hidden by the fuselage in an upright spin, and may be hidden by the top wing in an outside spin in a biplane. You see the correct direction of yaw if you look along the cowl, but if you look too far from the nose (above the wing in a biplane) you see the ground turning in the opposite direction.

In a monoplane the chances of mistaking the direction of yaw are smaller than in a biplane. However, under the stress of an inadvertent spin that fails to stop, you might not reconsider which rudder and elevator are needed if you do not know that the plane can transition smoothly from an upright to an inverted spin. An additional issue when using PARE is that to be certain of recovery you must get the sequence of rudder and elevator reversals correct to recover from an outside spin that started inside.


The Beggs-Mueller technique (snap the throttle to idle, apply rudder opposite to the yaw and let go of the stick) makes it unnecessary to figure out whether a spin is outside or inside. Most descriptions of the Beggs-Meuller technique emphasize looking just above the nose to determine the direction of yaw.


The Finagin technique (throttle off, forcibly neutralize all controls and confirm visually) eliminates the need to determine the direction of yaw or the g direction.
 
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Post 45

Excellent explanation of the benefits of Mueller Beggs. I will take this back at least another decade to when seemingly well qualified pilots as well as not so qualified pilots were spinning into the ground with appalling regularity. Mueller Beggs greatly reduced this.
The Mueller Beggs method is not something to rely on at even Sportsman Competition altitudes. While it COULD work at lower altitudes it is most useful for the pilot practicing at much higher altitudes.
For dealing with yaw- the initial focus should be straight ahead over the nose. Rudder opposite yaw. If this is too confusing push the rudder that requires the most force.
One more point probably not of much use in RV's. If one recovers from a too low inverted spin, push out of the dive, don't pull.
The late Bob Herendeen did 30 turn inverted flat spins in the Pitts S1S and always pushed out of the recovery dive. A roll upright, a very brief break to recover from the sustained negative G and then back down to airshow center.
 
The Mueller Beggs method is not something to rely on at even Sportsman Competition altitudes. While it COULD work at lower altitudes it is most useful for the pilot practicing at much higher altitudes.

There have been reports on various aerobatic forums from pilots who compared altitude loss after identical, intentional spins for the three techniques. My recollection is that PARE was better by only a few tens of percent.

My only non-testing use of Beggs-Mueller happened when I was experimenting with bizarre spin recovery techniques and an outside spin went three turns beyond where I wanted it to stop. I kept in the same outspin rudder and let go of the stick, and the spin stopped in half a turn. The stick moved to a place I never would have thought of trying, so it's unlikely I would have been able to stop the spin. Maybe it would have stopped when I released the stick and rudder to bail out, but maybe not.

After that, I decided that at competition altitudes I would release the stick at the first hint of a spin not stopping the way it usually does, then verify I have the correct rudder in and the throttle fully back. The ailerons should neutralize on their own, but I would check them as well in case a mechanical problem kept them slightly deflected.
 
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The Finagin technique (throttle off, forcibly neutralize all controls and confirm visually) eliminates the need to determine the direction of yaw or the g direction.

When I did my upset recovery training with Bill Finagin (well worth the money ...) his first question was: What does it means to be upset in an airplane? I didn't really have a good answer and used many words without saying much ... so he explained:

If you spin and you know what's going on by definition you are not upset. At that point you can use PARE (or whatever else you know works and makes it look good...). If you are upset by definition you don't know what is going on and the Finagin method will get you out of that in most acro airplanes.

So being upset or not is really a state of mind not a state of the airplane... . I hadn't thought about it that way before but of course he is right so what method you use when depends on you for the most part not the airplane(assuming either method works for the airplane in question).

When I got my RV-8 I wanted to know which methods worked so that if my mind ever got upset I was convinced I had a way out in my particular airplane. I am happy to report that with 1 person on board my RV-8 does recover with all 3 methods. I didn't measure the difference in altitude loss but it wasn't a lot and other aspects (when to add power on the downline enabling higher sooner G pull without secondary stall) have likely a bigger impact assuming your mind has recovered by than :) .

Oliver
 
spin recovery

Adding power on the downline is a competition protocol and absolutely should not be used by a pilot beginning spin exploration. That is doubly true of any clean airplane which will build speed rapidly.
A tidbit from the archieves: an airplane with a top speed in level flight of 200 m/h has a terminal velocity of well over 400 when pointed straight down with full power.
 
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