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Titan XIO 360 Oil Pressure Issue RV 7A

T

Tcheairs

Well Known Member
Titan XIO 360 135 hr TT. My oil pressure at start (cold) is 55psi. In cruise at 188 degrees oil temp it is steady at 45psi. Upon landing it drops to 11-15 psi at 1krpm. I had previously adjusted the pressure regulator 1 full turn which placed it about 1/2 its full travel which resulted in no change in readings. I adjusted it again 2 full turns (castle nut marked) which put the adjustment pin at about 3/4 travel. After flying yesterday the result was no change in the pressure readings. I'm running Phillips XC 20w50 with 6 qt in the sump.

Anyone have any idea what might be going on.
 
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Could be the spring in the pressure relief assembly broke or there is debris trapped between the ball and the seat. You could also have the wrong type of relief assembly and the ball is popping off to the side. THere are two types or pressure relief shells; One is used if your case has the cage to hold the ball and a different one if it doesn't. Pretty sure they changed before the wide deck case was introduced. If the case doesn't have the cage and you have the relief shell designed for the caged case, then the ball can fall off to the side and not close. Seems a lot of A&&Ps don't know this and the wrong style is some times installed; My core engine came with the wrong relief installed. As I think about this, I am not sure that they ever made an adjustable relief for the older assemblies that have the cage on the case, just the non-adjustable style. You would need to research more.

Hopefully that is the issue, otherwise your problem is likely worn bearing shells or a worn oil pump/broken gear teeth. VDO sensors tend to fail with high readings, not low, and often intermittent at first. However, after checking the relief assembly, I would verify the sensor readings before moving on to the serious stuff.

You need to address this ASAP, as 11 PSI is WAY too low for idle speeds.

Larry
 
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Thomas---same procedure as the fuel pressure stuff. Check it with a known good mechanical gauge befroe bowilg a buch of time chasing a mirage. Verify that it IS the pressures the EFIS is showing.

Tom
 
Thanks Tom. Where would you recommend a safe location to tie into the oil pressure system to install a mechanical gauge? Definitely would not want to risk a leak in the interior of the plane.
 
Tcheairs said:
Titan XIO 360 135 hr TT. My oil pressure at start (cold) is 55psi. In cruise at 188 degrees oil temp it is steady at 45psi. Upon landing it drops to 11-15 psi at 1krpm. I had previously adjusted the pressure regulator 1 full turn which placed it about 1/2 its full travel which resulted in no change in readings. I adjusted it again 2 full turns (castle nut marked) which put the adjustment pin at about 3/4 travel. After flying yesterday the result was no change in the pressure readings. I'm running Phillips XC 20w50 with 6 qt in the sump.

Anyone have any idea what might be going on.
Click to expand...

How did you adjust it? Clockwise or counter clockwise? I fear you are saying that 3/4 of the stud is showing after your last adjustment.
 
TS Flightlines said:
Thomas---same procedure as the fuel pressure stuff. Check it with a known good mechanical gauge befroe bowilg a buch of time chasing a mirage. Verify that it IS the pressures the EFIS is showing.

Tom
Click to expand...

I would argue that you could pull off the pressure relief assembly and inspect it in less time than it takes to purchase and install an oil pressure gauge.
 
Suggestion

Suggestion,
To have a mobile mechanical pressure gauge in the cockpit, fabricate an extension line that connects at the end of the pressure line that normally feeds the oil pressure sender.
Connect the mechanical gauge to that extension.
After a short flight, when the oil is warm and you noted the idle and say 2000 RPM pressures, connect the mechanical gauge, fire up and compare numbers while doing a ground run-up???
 
Adjustment nut turned CLOCKWISE. 3 full turns total from original reading of 45psi. Still 45psi.
 
I would do as suggested above, known good gauge and oil pressure relief valve good place to start.
I tend to run very close to the max.

Specs:
Oil Pressure - Normal Operation @ 75° to 245°F (24° to118°C) 55 to 95 psig
Maximum Allowable Oil Pressure (cold oil) 115 psig
Minimum Oil Pressure @ Idle (750 ± 25 RPM) 25 psig at or below 200°F
 
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Tcheairs said:
Thanks Walt, Guess I need to seek maintenance help right away. I don't wrench on engines..
Click to expand...

Yea I definitely would not fly it until fixed, and even after (assuming it's something simple) you will need to keep a close eye on it, hopefully you didn't cause/have any major issues.

PS: I would also pull the sump screen and filter for inspection.
 
If those pressures are real, you have a very significant hole somewhere that is bleeding the oil pressure off. 45 psi in cruise and 5 at ilde is way too low! Is the ball in the relief valve cavity? You get those kind of numbers when its missing.
I have to assume that the oil pressure was good when it was test run. so maybe look to things you might have changed that may have caused it to drop. Also, if it were me I would be inspecting finger and pressure screens before I ran it any more.
Something is majorly wrong, if those pressures prove to be accurate.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
 
mahlon wouldn't you also get these numbers if someone left out one of the oil galley plugs?
 
jcarne said:
mahlon wouldn't you also get these numbers if someone left out one of the oil galley plugs?
Click to expand...

I am guessing that you would, but it would have been there from day 1. It sounds like this was a new titan engine and I would really hope that ECI or continental would have confirmed good oil pressure during the test stand run. I struggle to see them missing something of this importance, but the work is done by humans. OP said he just bought the plane, so likely we won't know if this was a manufacturing/testing flaw. I hope for the OP's sake this has not been running with the stated pressures for 200 hours.

I know my 540 had one or two plugs inside the accy case, but can't remember if the 4 cyl did or not. I vaguely remember the 320 not having any buried. It's been too long to remember.

Larry
 
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lr172 said:
I am guessing that you would, but it would have been there from day 1. It sounds like this was a new titan engine and I would really hope that ECI or continental would have confirmed good oil pressure during the test stand run. I struggle to see them missing something of this importance, but the work is done by humans. OP said he just bought the plane, so likely we won't know if this was a manufacturing/testing flaw. I hope for the OP's sake this has not been running with the stated pressures for 200 hours.

I know my 540 had one or two plugs inside the accy case, but can't remember if the 4 cyl did or not. I vaguely remember the 320 not having any buried. It's been too long to remember.

Larry
Click to expand...

Good points Larry, I didn't see the hours on this engine in his first post. Agree, would not be great if those kinds of pressures where happening for that long. I just looked at a picture of when I had my accessory case off, there are 3 plugs.

Hope you get this figured out with little fuss OP!
 
I am the original OP. I picked up the airplane from the builder on March 18. It had just received a fresh condition inspection. I flew the airplane to my home base and the oil pressure for that trip at cruise was 45psi and 188 oil temp. The engine had 120 hrs on it since new when I picked it up. Stupidly, I was not aware of the high oil pressure requirements as per the Titan specs for the XIO 360..All of my prior experience is in big bore Continentals in my Bonanzas where 45/55 psi was fine.

I have flown the airplane for 15 hrs since purchased and taken photos of the D-100 EMS readings on several flights while investigating another issue. The oil pressure readings have been consistently in the mid 40s in cruise. After recently becoming aware (it's about time) of the Titan minimum and max oil pressure specs, I began attempting to adjust the oil pressure values higher with the pressure relief valve adjustment. As originally stated in my post, the adjustment (after 3 full turns CW) seems to have no effect.

I'm pretty sure these values that I have now were present when I (ignorantly) accepted the airplane without a professional pre purchase inspection. No oil pressure values are reported in the condition inspection. Live (knock on wood) and learn.

My hope is that the pressure relief valve is the problem. I certainly plan to remove and cut the oil filter as well as remove/inspect the screen. I would like to attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge and run the engine on the ground to verify the oil pressure reading on the Dynon 100. I also have an erroneous DC voltage reading on the D-100 which has been verified to be incorrect and leads me to (hope) that it is only a faulty indication.

Could someone please suggest an oil pressure pickup point on the engine where I might attach a mechanical gauge. It is a Titan clone XIO 360 assembled in 2012 and probably replaced by the 370...

Thanks to all for the comprehensive assessment of my oil pressure issue
 
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Tcheairs said:
I am the original OP. I picked up the airplane from the builder on March 18. It had just received a fresh condition inspection. I flew the airplane to my home base and the oil pressure for that trip at cruise was 45psi and 188 oil temp. The engine had 120 hrs on it since new when I picked it up. Stupidly, I was not aware of the high oil pressure requirements as per the Titan specs for the XIO 360..All of my prior experience is in big bore Continentals in my Bonanzas where 45/55 psi was fine.

I have flown the airplane for 15 hrs since purchased and taken photos of the D-100 EMS readings on several flights while investigating another issue. The oil pressure readings have been consistently in the mid 40s in cruise. After recently becoming aware (it's about time) of the Titan minimum and max oil pressure specs, I began attempting to adjust the oil pressure values higher with the pressure relief valve adjustment. As originally stated in my post, the adjustment (after 3 full turns CW) seems to have no effect.

I'm pretty sure these values that I have now were present when I (ignorantly) accepted the airplane without a professional pre purchase inspection. No oil pressure values are reported in the condition inspection. Live (knock on wood) and learn.

My hope is that the pressure relief valve is the problem. I certainly plan to remove and cut the oil filter as well as remove/inspect the screen. I would like to attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge and run the engine on the ground to verify the oil pressure reading on the Dynon 100. I also have an erroneous DC voltage reading on the D-100 which has been verified to be incorrect and leads me to (hope) that it is only a faulty indication.

Could someone please suggest an oil pressure pickup point on the engine where I might attach a mechanical gauge. It is a Titan clone XIO 360 assembled in 2012 and probably replaced by the 370...

Thanks to all for the comprehensive assessment of my oil pressure issue
Click to expand...

You can either tee into the oil pressure line coming off the back of the engine or you can pull one of the galley plugs at the front of the engine to attach to. See pic. Hope this helps.
 

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Tcheairs said:
I am the original OP. I picked up the airplane from the builder on March 18. It had just received a fresh condition inspection. I flew the airplane to my home base and the oil pressure for that trip at cruise was 45psi and 188 oil temp. The engine had 120 hrs on it since new when I picked it up. Stupidly, I was not aware of the high oil pressure requirements as per the Titan specs for the XIO 360..All of my prior experience is in big bore Continentals in my Bonanzas where 45/55 psi was fine.

I have flown the airplane for 15 hrs since purchased and taken photos of the D-100 EMS readings on several flights while investigating another issue. The oil pressure readings have been consistently in the mid 40s in cruise. After recently becoming aware (it's about time) of the Titan minimum and max oil pressure specs, I began attempting to adjust the oil pressure values higher with the pressure relief valve adjustment. As originally stated in my post, the adjustment (after 3 full turns CW) seems to have no effect.

I'm pretty sure these values that I have now were present when I (ignorantly) accepted the airplane without a professional pre purchase inspection. No oil pressure values are reported in the condition inspection. Live (knock on wood) and learn.

My hope is that the pressure relief valve is the problem. I certainly plan to remove and cut the oil filter as well as remove/inspect the screen. I would like to attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge and run the engine on the ground to verify the oil pressure reading on the Dynon 100. I also have an erroneous DC voltage reading on the D-100 which has been verified to be incorrect and leads me to (hope) that it is only a faulty indication.

Could someone please suggest an oil pressure pickup point on the engine where I might attach a mechanical gauge. It is a Titan clone XIO 360 assembled in 2012 and probably replaced by the 370...

Thanks to all for the comprehensive assessment of my oil pressure issue
Click to expand...

So now we have Clue # 2..... Low voltage, bad connection.

It's time to confirm oil pressure. Locate your oil pressure sender by finding the line that connects to the motor right next to the top right Lord mount (engine mount). Follow it over to the sender. It will have one or two wires attached. Label and remove the wires. Unscrew the sender and attach a mechanical guage to that location. There is no need to remove the air in the line, just connect and read the results. The line needs to be nothing more than a brass barbed fitting, hose clamp, and some clear tubing from ACE Hardware.

I run two oil pressure gauge systems because I don't want to panic over a low pressure reading and do an emergency landing due to a faulty gauge, sensor, or connection.
 
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OK, here's the deal on the voltage..again it's on the D-100 EMS. always reads low (9 or 10v) until I switch the #2 battery to charge..it's charge is switchable on and off. Then I get a full 13v indication. I also have a "cigarette lighter" plug and a voltage indicator plugged in there and it shows a constant 13.5v when the engine (alternator) is running. So, faulty indication there in the D-100. (I hate these vintage Dynons) can't see em in the daylight.

I'll go see if I can find the connections you mentioned and plan to plug in an auto direct reading gauge..Thanks for the help..this engine is very new to me. I'm an old big bore Continental man at heart..
 
Sensor vs Display?

On top of testing the oil pressure with reliable mechanical gauge to find the real numbers, I would also check the sensor vs the display.
When I adjusted the fuel pressure regulator on my setup, I had a tee connected to a mechanical pressure gauge indicating 33 PSI. The display (Dynon HDX) was showing 11 PSI.
My sensor is rated to 150 PSI, but the EMS setup was for a 50 PSI sensor so the value on the screen was 1/3 the actual pressure. I changed the setting to the correct value and bingo, 33 showed up on the Dynon...
Easier to check and less invasive to diagnose...
 
That's my plan..test actual mechanical pressure against indicated..then go to sensor and last ditch..to the pressure relief valve..
 
The sensor itself might be the issue...

But make sure your EMS setting matches your sensor's range of PSI
 
Tcheairs said:
I am the original OP. I picked up the airplane from the builder on March 18. It had just received a fresh condition inspection. I flew the airplane to my home base and the oil pressure for that trip at cruise was 45psi and 188 oil temp. The engine had 120 hrs on it since new when I picked it up. Stupidly, I was not aware of the high oil pressure requirements as per the Titan specs for the XIO 360..All of my prior experience is in big bore Continentals in my Bonanzas where 45/55 psi was fine.

I have flown the airplane for 15 hrs since purchased and taken photos of the D-100 EMS readings on several flights while investigating another issue. The oil pressure readings have been consistently in the mid 40s in cruise. After recently becoming aware (it's about time) of the Titan minimum and max oil pressure specs, I began attempting to adjust the oil pressure values higher with the pressure relief valve adjustment. As originally stated in my post, the adjustment (after 3 full turns CW) seems to have no effect.

I'm pretty sure these values that I have now were present when I (ignorantly) accepted the airplane without a professional pre purchase inspection. No oil pressure values are reported in the condition inspection. Live (knock on wood) and learn.

My hope is that the pressure relief valve is the problem. I certainly plan to remove and cut the oil filter as well as remove/inspect the screen. I would like to attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge and run the engine on the ground to verify the oil pressure reading on the Dynon 100. I also have an erroneous DC voltage reading on the D-100 which has been verified to be incorrect and leads me to (hope) that it is only a faulty indication.

Could someone please suggest an oil pressure pickup point on the engine where I might attach a mechanical gauge. It is a Titan clone XIO 360 assembled in 2012 and probably replaced by the 370...

Thanks to all for the comprehensive assessment of my oil pressure issue
Click to expand...

It is probably easiest to just remove the OP sensor and replace with your gauge. If the builder used the Vans sender block, there is probaby and extra hole with a plug in it that you can remove and put the gauge there. It is likely the gauge is 1/8 NPT, same as the sensor. You can also just remove the sensor and plumb it to your air compressor. If the dynon reading matches the reading on your compressor, the sender is accurate. This is the easiest way to confirm pressure sensors.

You do NOT want to use a galley plug as a source, as the readings will be different, as they are downstream from the pressure relief.

Larry
 
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riseric said:
On top of testing the oil pressure with reliable mechanical gauge to find the real numbers, I would also check the sensor vs the display.
When I adjusted the fuel pressure regulator on my setup, I had a tee connected to a mechanical pressure gauge indicating 33 PSI. The display (Dynon HDX) was showing 11 PSI.
My sensor is rated to 150 PSI, but the EMS setup was for a 50 PSI sensor so the value on the screen was 1/3 the actual pressure. I changed the setting to the correct value and bingo, 33 showed up on the Dynon...
Easier to check and less invasive to diagnose...
Click to expand...

This is unlikely. If the dynon were set up for a 50 PSI sensor, it would mean he is getting 130-140 PSI actual pressure at cruise, when the dynon repots 45. The fact that he sometimes reads 55 PSI means it cannot be configured for a 50 psi sender. Also, the fact that significant changes to the pressure relief unit adjustment produced zero change in pressure readings, yet sensor happily goes from 0 to 55 PSI, indicates a problem other than the sensor, excluding a gross low value, which is uncommon for VDO sensors. If the system were operating properly, three turns on the relief adjustment should have produced a change in the pressure readings, regardless of whether or not the sender is taking accurate readings. The sender is clearly moving accurately across a range and doing it reliably.

I don't knock anyone for wanting to verify the sender, but my first step would be to get eyes on the internals of the pressure relief assembly, as there is clearly something very wrong in the system. I do agree with others that a restriction on the suction side of the pump could also be a problem. However, I still believe that changes to the relief adjustment would have made a difference in the idle oi pressures, even with a restriction. Suction side restrictions tend to reduce output and pressure in high flow situations, yet not reduce output in low flow situations, like idle.
 
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Thomas---sorry I was on VAF yesterday to answer.
You can do this a couple of ways, but since the oil pressure hose is ready from one of the galleys, you can
1) on your VA168 sender manifold where there will be a port with a plug in it, remove the plug and install a AN fitting, AN816-3 or 4 to match your mechanical gauge hose and a straight is easier. This way you are reading from the same source as your electrical sender.
2) secure the gauge--tie wraps are fine.
3) NOT necessary to fly, just have the cowling off. IF you have a COMPETENT person to help, have them monitor the mechanical gauge while you run the engine to crosscheck the readings vs the electrical ones on the EFIS.

Believe the results--to a point. If the mechanical reads much more 'normal', then look at the sender, wiring, grounds, etc. If the readings stay the same, low in your case-then I'd take Mahlons advise---he would certainly know---and do a deep dive into this by a COMPETENT engine shop.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Tom
 
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