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De-lurk, and first of many questions

TLN

I'm New Here
Hello fellow RV'ers

I guess it is time to step up and say Hi.

(What follows is a long rambling intro, the question is right at the bottom :D )

We (Lizzy and I) currently fly an older 182, and love her, but after the last several annuals costing big $$, we have decided to upgrade to something newer. We thought of a T182, and even a Cirrus, but my Dad always told me money doesn't grow on trees, and I've discovered he was right.

I like toys, and I hate not having even more of das blinkenlights on the panel. I am currently doing my IFR rating. Lizzy is lower time than I, and is currently working on her night rating. We are both in our 50s. (Please don't tell Lizzy I said that :eek: )

Our mission is fairly long cross-country flights. Think 2-4 hour legs. We do not fly around the patch much. Neither of us has done any aerobatics. Lizzy doesn't like them much, I am not so sure I might not. We tend to fly high, and have portable O2 in the cockpit. We both think an autopilot is an essential part of cross country flying.

The other side of the decision to build is that we love spending time together, especially making "stuff". We think this project may be a great way to continue how we spend our spare time. We are not too sure of our capabilities, especially with the engine side of things, but have always managed to figure out a way to get things done, and suspect this will be no different - at worst we can get an AME to work with us on the engine. I am fairly good with my hands. I have built model aircraft, houses, like crafting things out of steel. I have taken a small engine course. Lizzy is great at detail work, such as pastry, sewing, etc.

We both had a chance to fly the demonstrator, and were very impressed by most of what we saw. All aircraft are compromises, but we feel we may not need to make too many with a -10.

We plan to continue flying our 182 as we build. In fact, JYMmie is getting a factory reman at her annual this January ($$), which is a big part of why we are not starting earlier. That, and the fact that we realize how big a project this is, and we don't plan on committing until we are sure of ourselves.

So, please forgive any stupid questions. I have spent many hours looking through old threads and many builder sites, but still find myself wondering about things.

The question:

Have there been any wing failures in RVs?

The lack of a longer main spar overlap at the joint bothers me. My flying buddy correctly points out that there is not much overlap in our Cessna either, but we do have a strut. Perhaps it is the long overlap in the glider wings from my younger days that makes me think that it "just doesn't look right."

Can anyone put this bugaboo to rest for me? :confused:
 
Hello fellow RV'ers
The question:

Have there been any wing failures in RVs?

The lack of a longer main spar overlap at the joint bothers me. My flying buddy correctly points out that there is not much overlap in our Cessna either, but we do have a strut. Perhaps it is the long overlap in the glider wings from my younger days that makes me think that it "just doesn't look right."

Can anyone put this bugaboo to rest for me? :confused:

Hello, Steve and welcome. It sounds like you guys are well suited for building. Should be fun.

Regarding your question,

I believe there were one or more wing failures on the RV-3 which prompted some modifications and ultimately a redesign.

I'm also aware of one RV-8 wing failure. Significant testing ensued and the the test wing failed as predicted (although I think it may have been at a slightly higher load than expected). The failure did not occur at the root, but closer to mid-span in my recollection (again, as predicted). Prevailing speculation is that the pilot pulled the wings off (over g). Speculation, nonetheless.

The -3B wing has been completely redesigned (hence the B designation) to make it similar to the -7, -8, -9, and -10 arrangement.

I've been in the engineering profession for about 20 years and don't see anything that sets alarm bells off for me. I haven't done any calculations, though, so I can only comment from the TLAR (that looks about right) perspective.

As long as the overlap and attachment is adequate to transfer the load from the spar caps of the wing to the caps in the center section, it's strong enough. I haven't seen a Cessna wing attachment, but having a strut, I'm guessing it's not a cantilever design...thus a completely different type of design.

If you have concerns, you should feel free to call Vans.

Good luck!
 
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Welcome aboard

Welcome Steve. I do not have the engineering background (I am a maintenance test pilot on helicopters in the Army) to comment on any wing failures, but I can tell you I am not aware of any, and after reading about the load testing some of our builders across the pond have to do to certify their craft I have no concerns. The spar assemblies are stout and when they are mated during assembly the joint is solid. It is an issue that only Vans can truly answer for you, but it hasn't been an issue in our community as it is in another.

It is great to hear that you and your wife are in this together. That is really important on the project. It can bring you closer, or drive you farther apart. My girlfriend gave me the me or the airplane ultimatum...I am expecting first flight in January:) This community is certainly a great place to get information, and over the years I have certainly received alot of help from the group. Many of the questions you will have will be in the archives, but anything asked is typically met with a rapid response as someone has had the same problem. Again, welcome aboard.

Eric Kallio
N518RV
Tying up loose ends before inspection
 
Welcome new RV-10 builder

Hello Steve,
You seem to have all the right stuff to build an RV-10.

Your worries about the main spar overlap are unfounded and a bit like
questioning the size of the rear axle on a Chevy Suburban.
In all fairness I have looked at the wing spar attachment many times and had similar thoughts but I do trust Van's design engineers.
Looking at 30 years of Van's history I have no reason to believe that there is a flaw in wing spar attachment design.
The overlap spar design on gliders is much different in that the carry through structure is almost non existent and made up of the overlapping spars.
Looking at the carry through structure on the RV-10 is a massive assembly
of heavy aluminum and heavy gauge aluminum for the web.
I cannot tell you exactly why they do it this way but I can tell you that wing
attachment for a homebuilder is exceedingly simple and easy to accomplish
in a precise manner.
After flying an RV-8 for 8 years and now finishing an RV-10 I have never had a worry about wing root design.
The sooner you get started the sooner you finish;)
 
Mike, Eric and Ernst

Thanks for the welcome.

I appreciate the responses. Van's long history and solid reputation is one of the many reasons why we both like the RV hangar. I guess I just had to ask that question, as it has been niggling me for a while now, and just had to get out! :eek:

OK, so here is a more practical question:

Where are the instructions for testing the fuel tanks? I feel stupid, but don't seem to be able to find them.

Regards
Steve
 
Mike, Eric and Ernst
OK, so here is a more practical question:

Where are the instructions for testing the fuel tanks? I feel stupid, but don't seem to be able to find them.

Regards
Steve

For the RV-7A, they're in the 8.5 x 11 instructions. Not sure on the -10...I believe the instructions and plans are more combined. The process is the same, regardless. Use a manometer and a bicycle pump to pressure the tank to 1 psi (~27.7 inches of water), and let it sit for a while. If the manometer stays put over an extended period of time, you're good to go (be sure to watch for the effect of temperature fluctuations).

Multiple websites (including mine) show the process.

Take care,
 
Steve,
I see your enthusiasm bubbling to the surface.
You do have unusually different questions for someone who has not started building yet. Something tells me you have been thinking about this for a while.
The fuel tank testing is usually a bridge you can "burn" when you get to it.

When you do approach a project like building an airplane you cannot possibly have all the problems worked out before you start. You will build small parts or sections at the time and each presents a few challenges but all can be solved when they are separated into small tasks.
Help is available especially on this forum where some vendors answer questions even on weekends.

As to your specific question.
Another way to test the fuel tank is to close all the openings attach a balloon
to one of the fittings and pressurize the tank until the balloon is inflated.
If it stays inflated for a couple of days your tank is tight.

Happy Thanksgiving
 
Steve,
I used the balloon test on my tanks and it worked great. The balloon stayed fully inflated for 3 days before I took it off, so I'm confident they're good to go. I documented it with lots of pictures on my web site, too.

Van's sells the Fuel Tank Test Kit separately. Price: $6.00 The instructions for testing the tank are in the kit. The instructions tell you how to do it both ways.

cat-med_tank-test.jpg


One more thing. I suspect you're worried about making mistakes and you're trying to get it all figured out beforehand. Don't worry. We ALL make mistakes along the way. Just assume you'll make your share. The good news is, the parts are relatively cheap, especially in the beginning when you're likely to make most of them. So if you screw something up, you just toss it in the scrap pile (we all have one), order a new part and press on. More than anything else, this is a "learn as you go" kind of project.
 
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Spars

Steve,

I'm an aerospace engineer and I analysed the RV-10 wing and carry-through. I can assure you it's very strong! This particular method of wing attachment is very common. Since the wing loads are reacted at the attachment bolts, there is no benefit to extending the spars further.

Sailplanes often use a tongue-and-fork configuration with overlapping spars. When properly designed, this method is lighter, but more complicated to build. In contrast, the airplane world usually sticks to simple designs.

Keep in mind... you can tear the wings off any machine, including the C182. I haven't heard of an RV-10 wing failure, but such an event would almost certainly be due to extreme pilot error.
 
Welcome Steve and Lizzy

Your background mirrors mine...model airplanes, cars, outbuildings and general handiwork.

Coupled with your wife's abilities and enthusiasm, starting on a -10 is a no-brainer.

What'r you waiting for?:)

Best,
 
Welcome Steve & Lizzy!

Same as you and Pierre...very handy with very helpful wife. I have 881 hrs in less than a year(Dec 1st). She has helped only in the "have to areas" which is probably about 50 hrs. I could not have accomplished all of this without her. With two young children to raise, work, yard/cars/house to maintain and now this airplane to build it is really a juggling act. We saved up the money for the entire kit up front. We hoped that by the time we got to the engine/prop/fwf kits we would be ready financially. It has worked out perfectly.

It is a great kit! Get with me or another builder on the phone before starting and I'll go through my plans with you so that you can note all of the "gotchas". Many are online already but are located in many different places and half of them have already been corrected by Van's. This is a great group of people on here, and has really helped me this past year. Hope you get to start soon.
 
Thanks everybody for the patient answers.

Steve and I are both detail oriented. Add our slightly anxious personalities and you get two people who think and re-think everything. We are starting to see we need to have faith that if we start at the beginning, work through each problem one at a time, and keep going, we will eventually have a completed RV-10.

It seems we have eliminated all worries except our ability to keep at it. I told Steve my frugality alone should do that. I am not paying for something I don't USE!! :eek:

Lizzy
 
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I am not far away....

if you have any questions that need a set of eyes at the new aircraft factory that you will have created;). I can jump in the 10 and head down for a look.

There is plenty of RV's in Alberta (This can be said by everyone I am sure) to realize how popular they are. High numbers around the world show confidence in the design.

The RV9 I build is currently in Lethbridge and my 10 is in High River. I will be glad to help you out on your building journey. Building is just as much fun as flying! You will not regret it.
 
To Eric

Great decision - there are many women out there who would support and be happy with a man who wants to fly. I found one and so can you. Enjoy your aircraft.:cool:
 
Welcome Steve and Lizzy...

It's always nice to welcome a husband and wife build team to the site! I think you just made about 13,000 friends - all here to answer your questions and root for you.

Best always,
Doug
 
if you have any questions that need a set of eyes at the new aircraft factory that you will have created;). I can jump in the 10 and head down for a look.

Troy

Thanks a bunch for the offer, one which I am sure we will need to cash in some time in the future.

We are also fortunate to have Andy C., who also flies a 9-A, to help us here in Lethbridge.

We would love to see your -10 some time.

Steve
 
Great decision - there are many women out there who would support and be happy with a man who wants to fly. I found one and so can you. Enjoy your aircraft.:cool:

That is sooo true.

Story:

I had taken a financially enforced hiatus from aviation. During that time Lizzy and I met. Nothing she had said had suggested a love for flying. In fact, she had never been up in anything smaller than a RJ.

One day, I was cruising the web, and muttered something about wanting a motorhome. (Class A, of course). Lizzy countered that it would be much cheaper to buy an airplane. WHAZZATT?? WHATDIDYOUSAY??

The next fine evening, I had her go up with the local flying school, and the grin on her face when she got out of that 152 is still with me. So, I regained my licence. We bought a plane. I flew, she navigated. One day I was musing about whether or not our daughter/stepdaughter would like to be a pilot. Lizzy (bless her soul, that gal is patient) said she wondered about being a pilot herself. WHAZZATT?? WHATDIDYOUSAY??

OK, so I am an idiot. But now she is working on her night rating, and plans her IFR ticket after that. I guess I better get going or she is going to pass me by.

So Eric: you haven't met her yet, but that gal is out there. It only takes one, not a busload. Just be sure to keep an eye open for her. But don't ask me for tips. When it comes to that stuff, I am an idjit. :D

Steve
 
Steve,

I'm an aerospace engineer and I analysed the RV-10 wing and carry-through. I can assure you it's very strong! This particular method of wing attachment is very common. Since the wing loads are reacted at the attachment bolts, there is no benefit to extending the spars further.

Thanks Dave. I really needed that. :eek: I think I even somewhat understand the last sentence above. :D

BTW, really neat product you have there. One of those: "Now why didn't I think of that" things.

Steve
 
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