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LOP, ROP, Peak, & EGT's on a Dynon 180

donaziza

donaziza

Well Known Member
After some formation flying today, I was out playing with my Dynon 180 to try to see if it was telling me the truth. The D180 will show %ROP, % LOP, and right at peak. When the D180 showed right at "peak", the egt's on two of my cylinders were 1390* & 1371*. This is at 3900", 23" & 2350 RPM. When the D180 showed 66% LOP, I had an EGT of 1412*. This doesn't make sense to me, ie, its backwards.

I assume my Dynon is messed up??:confused:

Dynon support, if you read this, would you please comment. ( I see you guys all the time here on VAF)
 
donaziza said:
The D180 will show %ROP, % LOP, and right at peak.
Click to expand...

Percent lean or rich of peak? Doesn't seem likely. Perhaps the display format is confusing.....maybe a 66% power indication displayed in a space adjacent to the LOP/ROP indication?

From the manual:

On some engines, when given the proper set of inputs, the EMS can also calculate percent power and lean-of-peak or rich-of-peak operation in real time. To do this, the EMS needs access to OAT, MAP, RPM, Altitude (from EFIS or GPS) and fuel flow, and be used on a normally aspirated engine that is close in performance to a ?stock? Lycoming/Continental engine. This information is based on Lycoming and Continental power charts, is updated in real time, and is displayed near the manifold pressure gauge.

BTW, the leaning display illustration in the D180 manual may also cause some confusion. The example shows four cylinders with a 39 degree total spread in "degrees from peak" (156-117=39), with a 2 GPH fuel flow spread. That's highly improbable, and mostly likely a typo of sorts. Realistic would be 0.2 GPH for a 39 degree spread. Looks like it was corrected in the Skyview manual.

 
I have a question please.

Note the underlined text in the previous illustration:

If the fuel flow decreases, it is shown as Lean of Peak. If fuel flow increases, it is shown as Rich of Peak.

Let's assume our pilot will find peak from the LOP side, then set mixture for cruise. The pilot pulls mixture directly to roughness, placing the mixture on the LOP side of peak, then engages the Lean Function. Next, mixture is slowly enriched, and the EGTs rise. As each cylinder arrives at peak EGT, the temperature indication switches from actual EGT to degrees-from-peak. Fuel flow is increasing as the EGT indications move past peak, so the "LOP"/"ROP" indication will say "ROP".

With peak located, what happens to that indication if the pilot then reverses mixture travel, leaning to some LOP value? Does the system sense the decreasing fuel flow as the EGT again passes through peak, and switch to an "LOP" indication?
 
DanH said:
Percent lean or rich of peak? Doesn't seem likely. Perhaps the display format is confusing.....maybe a 66% power indication displayed in a space adjacent to the LOP/ROP indication?

From the manual:

On some engines, when given the proper set of inputs, the EMS can also calculate percent power and lean-of-peak or rich-of-peak operation in real time. To do this, the EMS needs access to OAT, MAP, RPM, Altitude (from EFIS or GPS) and fuel flow, and be used on a normally aspirated engine that is close in performance to a ?stock? Lycoming/Continental engine. This information is based on Lycoming and Continental power charts, is updated in real time, and is displayed near the manifold pressure gauge.

BTW, the leaning display illustration in the D180 manual may also cause some confusion. The example shows four cylinders with a 39 degree total spread in "degrees from peak" (156-117=39), with a 2 GPH fuel flow spread. That's highly improbable, and mostly likely a typo of sorts. Realistic would be 0.2 GPH for a 39 degree spread. Looks like it was corrected in the Skyview manual.
Click to expand...

I haven't flown with my D-120 yet, so have no practical data. However, I think that the description may be incorrect. I have assumed that the GPH shown in this illustration is the reduction in GPH since the first or last (not sure which) cylinder peaked. This would be a logical design choice. Knowing the delta GPH on the lean or rich side of peak is valuable data for managing the engine. The delta GPH between first and last cyl peak seems to me to be just troubleshooting data that wouldn't really help in routine flights.

Hopefully someone flying behind one of these can chime in.

Larry
 
DanH said:
Percent lean or rich of peak? Doesn't seem likely. Perhaps the display format is confusing.....maybe a 66% power indication displayed in a space adjacent to the LOP/ROP indication?

From the manual:

On some engines, when given the proper set of inputs, the EMS can also calculate percent power and lean-of-peak or rich-of-peak operation in real time. To do this, the EMS needs access to OAT, MAP, RPM, Altitude (from EFIS or GPS) and fuel flow, and be used on a normally aspirated engine that is close in performance to a ?stock? Lycoming/Continental engine. This information is based on Lycoming and Continental power charts, is updated in real time, and is displayed near the manifold pressure gauge.

BTW, the leaning display illustration in the D180 manual may also cause some confusion. The example shows four cylinders with a 39 degree total spread in "degrees from peak" (156-117=39), with a 2 GPH fuel flow spread. That's highly improbable, and mostly likely a typo of sorts. Realistic would be 0.2 GPH for a 39 degree spread. Looks like it was corrected in the Skyview manual.

Click to expand...


Hi Dan, Read your two threads. I'm familiar with the special "leaning mode" on the 180 you refer to here. I played with it when I first got the airplane. Wasn't that impressed with it, so I just use the the what you see every day "not in special leaning mode" display.

Even in regular mode, when the 180 actually shows the actual word "peak", shouldn't at least one of my EGT's be at its hottest? And then whether I move the mixture either direction, either toward rich or toward lean, shouldn't the hottest EGT start to cool off? This is not happening. Lets say I move the mixture towards lean after the word peak is displayed. The EGT's actually get hotter, not cooler. And at the same time, the 180 is now displaying a percentage number lean of peak. That's what doesn't make sense to me??? Am I not understanding? Hottest EGT is at peak, right?
 
When you refer to a percent indication and the word "peak", are you looking at these (red circle)?



The percentage value is percent power, primarily a function of manifold pressure and RPM. Although the system may consider mixture state in determining the value to display, it indicates nothing specific about mixture state.

Documentation says the lower space displays ROP, LOP, or PEAK if the system is configured correctly. I too have a question about that particular indication.
 
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DanH said:
The percentage value is percent power, primarily a function of manifold pressure and RPM. Although the system may consider mixture state in determining the value to display, it indicates nothing specific about mixture state.

Documentation says the lower space displays ROP, LOP, or PEAK if the system is configured correctly. I too have a question about that particular indication.
Click to expand...

Power is mainly a function of MP and RPM when ROP; but lean of peak power will fall off nearly linearly with fuel flow.
Dynon, chime in, but I believe the software attempts to determine if you are ROP or LOP, and then use MP/RPM (ROP) or Fuel Flow (LOP) to determine % of sea level power. And I suspect it doesn't get the ROP or LOP correct unless you go thru the "lean mode" process, going from rich of peak to lean of peak.
 
Don,
Have you read the D180 guide where it describes how to tune the auto LOP/ROP/PK detection for your engine? Each engine is a bit different, and we use fuel flow and MAP which can have some calibration differences, so it won't be dead on out of the box. Once it is tuned, then you shouldn't need to do the manual lean/peak detect.

It's luck we found this message- in the future post in the glass cockpit area where we look more often, not the general RV area.

Dan,
The neat thing about the dynon % power is that the ROP/LOP state actually folds in to our % power calculation. It's correct even when you are LOP and most traditional systems that only look at MAP and RPM will over-state power when LOP. But it is % power, not % lean.
 
dynonsupport said:
The neat thing about the dynon % power is that the ROP/LOP state actually folds in to our % power calculation.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know.

Could you address the question in post 3?

New questions;

The "LOP, ROP, PEAK" indication posted near the MAP gauge is based on calculation, not an actual reference to EGT values?

The LOP or ROP indications posted by the bar graphs are derived directly from EGT observation, have nothing to do with the indication posted near the MAP gauge, and only appear on the display when the LEAN mode is engaged?
 
Dan,
That is correct. The ones near the MAP gauge are derived- derived % power and derived ROP/LOP state. The ROP/LOP state here has nothing to do with EGT (it's not used in the calculation at all).

The ones near the EGT bars themselves are the ones that run off the EGT sensors and "watch" the EGT's as you lean/richen for peak, and track fuel flow from peak to determine if you are rich or lean of that peak point. This mode must be manually entered.
 
DanH said:
Yes, I know.

Could you address the question in post 3?
Click to expand...

dynonsupport said:
Dan,
That is correct. The ones near the MAP gauge are derived- derived % power and derived ROP/LOP state. The ROP/LOP state here has nothing to do with EGT (it's not used in the calculation at all).

The ones near the EGT bars themselves are the ones that run off the EGT sensors and "watch" the EGT's as you lean/richen for peak, and track fuel flow from peak to determine if you are rich or lean of that peak point. This mode must be manually entered.
Click to expand...


Did I miss something?
 
DanH said:
When you refer to a percent indication and the word "peak", are you looking at these (red circle)?



The percentage value is percent power, primarily a function of manifold pressure and RPM. Although the system may consider mixture state in determining the value to display, it indicates nothing specific about mixture state.

Documentation says the lower space displays ROP, LOP, or PEAK if the system is configured correctly. I too have a question about that particular indication.
Click to expand...


Dan, yes, that is correct. Where you circled the 63% ROP is exactly what I was referring to. After reading your two answers and also Dynon's, now I'm totally confused.:confused: I'm going to go bone up on the part Dynon talked about in the manual, and then I guess call them on the phone.
 
dynonsupport said:
That is correct. The ones near the MAP gauge are derived....The ones near the EGT bars (snip) run off the EGT sensors.
Click to expand...

Got it, thanks.

Now, back to the question in post #3...

Let's assume our pilot will find peak from the LOP side, then set mixture for cruise. The pilot pulls mixture directly to roughness, placing the mixture on the LOP side of peak, then engages the Lean Function. Next, mixture is slowly enriched, and the EGTs rise. As each cylinder arrives at peak EGT, the temperature indication switches from actual EGT to degrees-from-peak. Fuel flow is increasing as the EGT indications move past peak, so the "LOP"/"ROP" indication located near the EGT bars will display "ROP" as soon as the last cylinder passes peak.

With peak located, what happens to that indication if the pilot then reverses mixture travel, to set some LOP value? Does the system sense the decreasing fuel flow as the EGT again passes through peak, and switch to an "LOP" indication? If yes, that would be when the last cylinder passes through peak?
 
donaziza said:
Dan, yes, that is correct. Where you circled the 63% ROP is exactly what I was referring to. After reading your two answers and also Dynon's, now I'm totally confused.
Click to expand...

Bottom line...totally ignore both circled values until the underlying information from which they are derived is corrected.
 
The D180 in my RV9 (O 320 fixed pitch) appears to reflect some of what you guys have been talking about. I agree that the red circle with 63% in this case , is a value of % power based on MAP and RPM. I see this on mine as being very close to what I expect. However I have never been able to under stand the ROP or LOP that appears under that % Power value. I have used the Lean mode and played with the lean F(x) from both sides with the red knob but never been able to figure out what its telling me . The Electronic ignition (Plasma II plus) on mine makes the difference in lean and full rich to be a very fine line. ( i think) . Otherwise thanks for the comments I'll see if any of this make more sense next time out. DRR
 
Sorry we missed this one:

DanH said:
Let's assume our pilot will find peak from the LOP side, then set mixture for cruise. The pilot pulls mixture directly to roughness, placing the mixture on the LOP side of peak, then engages the Lean Function. Next, mixture is slowly enriched, and the EGTs rise. As each cylinder arrives at peak EGT, the temperature indication switches from actual EGT to degrees-from-peak. Fuel flow is increasing as the EGT indications move past peak, so the "LOP"/"ROP" indication will say "ROP".

With peak located, what happens to that indication if the pilot then reverses mixture travel, leaning to some LOP value? Does the system sense the decreasing fuel flow as the EGT again passes through peak, and switch to an "LOP" indication?
Click to expand...

The system records the fuel flow that the engine peaks at. If you lean from there, it will say LOP. If you richen, it will say ROP. It doesn't matter what direction you came from to get to peak, only the direction you go after peak. It does use the last cylinder to peak as the marker. Note that we also show the GAMI spread, which is the FF difference of first to peak vs last to peak.
 
Let's see if I can clean this up:

1) % power. This is calculated from RPM, MAP, OAT, Altitude, and fuel flow. This is the % power the engine is making right now, with 100% being rated power at sea level on a standard day. This factors in if you are LOP or ROP as the calculation is totally different depending on that state.

2) LOP/ROP up by % power. This is the DERIVED mixture state of the engine. This uses the same data as the % power calculation to make the determination. No EGT data is used. Note it can also say PK when you are in the middle.

#1 and #2 have setup parameters that need to be correct for it to work. First, your fuel flow has to be calibrated. Once it's correct, then in setup, there is a "HP" number that needs to be set, and tweaked. You need to lean the engine watching EGT's, and tweak the HP number until the derived one matches the EGT data. The HP will be close to the rated HP of your engine, but likely a bit different.

3) LOP/ROP under the EGT bars. This is a mode you put the EGT display into. Then it tracks EGTs as you change mixture, and determines the peak for each cylinder. It marks the fuel flow for each cylinder, and once all have peaked, shows you the GAMI spread for your engine, and the degrees below peak for each cylinder. It also tells you if you are rich of the peak or lean.

#3 has no connection at all to #1 or #2.
 
dynonsupport said:
The system records the fuel flow that the engine peaks at. If you lean from there, it will say LOP. If you richen, it will say ROP. It doesn't matter what direction you came from to get to peak, only the direction you go after peak. It does use the last cylinder to peak as the marker. Note that we also show the GAMI spread, which is the FF difference of first to peak vs last to peak.
Click to expand...

Excellent, got it.

The format does seem to have potential for confusion. Let's see if I have it right. (Note to all...this is Lean Mode, actual values, not the derived values.)

Pilot is cruising LOP, as on the left. Pilot enriches the mixture enough to move EGT by 155 degrees. First 4, then 3, then 2 pass peak, but 1 didn't quite get to peak. The display would be as shown on the right?

 
HooBoy

OK, I just talked to Dynon. First read post 18. That is very good. Now what Dynon said to me. Yes, when the word "Peak" shows on the D180 (right by the MAP), that is indeed when your hottest EGT's should show. As I thought when I started this thread, if you move the mixture towards rich or lean, and the "words" ROP or LOP now shows, your EGT's should be dropping. If it doesn't, your 180 is out of calibration. How to get it in calibration. Dynon support in post 18 talks about fuel flow calibration, that K factor and HP or horse power. On page 6-3 of the "Installation Guide" see "Global Parameters Setup".

Right next to those words is a picture showing Install setup, and right below that "Engine Type: other", and then right below that "HP Rating" This information needs to be entered and also the fuel flow post 18 talked about to put the 180 in calibration.

Turns out this version 5.6 is revision "H". I have version 4.0.4 or revision "B". In my older firmware version, the "Engine Type: other", and the "HP Rating" mentioned above don't even show. In order to update your D180, you have to download the revision into your laptop from Dynon, then take your laptop to your airplane, and not using a USB cable, but rather some 9 pronger I think he said, connect to your 180 and update it to version 5.6. I mention the 9 prong plug, because he said most laptops today don't have that 9 prong plug on their sides anymore. ( I don't know how you get around "that" problem.:eek:)

Then, again, as I said, when the word "Peak" reads on your 180, that's when your EGT's should be at their hottest.
 
DanH said:
Pilot is cruising LOP, as on the left. Pilot enriches the mixture enough to move EGT by 155 degrees. First 4, then 3, then 2 pass peak, but 1 didn't quite get to peak. The display would be as shown on the right?
Click to expand...

Dan,
It won't say LOP in that case. The LOP or ROP will only show up once all cylinders peak. We don't know until that has happened. All it will say is LEAN, with no GAMI spread or mixture state.
 
donaziza said:
Turns out this version 5.6 is revision "H". I have version 4.0.4 or revision "B". In my older firmware version, the "Engine Type: other", and the "HP Rating" mentioned above don't even show. In order to update your D180, you have to download the revision into your laptop from Dynon, then take your laptop to your airplane, and not using a USB cable, but rather some 9 pronger I think he said, connect to your 180 and update it to version 5.6. I mention the 9 prong plug, because he said most laptops today don't have that 9 prong plug on their sides anymore. ( I don't know how you get around "that" problem.:eek:)
Click to expand...

Your D180 came with a USB to Serial adapter, which is how you get around the issue of modern laptops not having serial ports. If you have lost yours, we can sell you another one.

If you have LOP/ROP up by the MAP, then you have a HP setting in the menu. We introduced all of this in the 3.0 software release (7/11/2007). If your manual doesn't list this, then your manual is older than your software. You don't need to get to our latest software to have the HP adjustment. The letters you list are for our manual releases, and the numbers are our software. Sounds like you have 4.0.4 software (4/9/2008), which has the function in it. Also make sure you are looking in the INSTALL guide, not the pilot's guide, as these kind of adjustments are in the install guide.
 
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dynonsupport said:
Dan,
It won't say LOP in that case. The LOP or ROP will only show up once all cylinders peak. We don't know until that has happened. All it will say is LEAN, with no GAMI spread or mixture state.
Click to expand...

At what marker does the existing "LOP" and the GAMI spread disappear?
 
Ahh, sorry, I missed the fact that they started in actual LOP and had already peaked out and detected that.

The system does not detect that you are moving the mixture (or changing altitude), so it will read LOP until the last cylinder re-peaks, and only if all cylinders peak above the temp it they last peaked at.

The operational expectation is that this is only used for short term lean finding, and that you exit and re-enter this mode when changing the mixture. Which is why the other LOP/ROP system is preferable as it requires no specific operations to work. You will get improper indications if you go through peak more than once without resetting the peak detect mode.
 
dynonsupport said:
The system does not detect that you are moving the mixture (or changing altitude), so it will read LOP until the last cylinder re-peaks, and only if all cylinders peak above the temp it they last peaked at.
Click to expand...

My goodness...you're saying, in the given scenario, if any cylinder fails to reach a peak value higher than the first time it passed peak, the system would continue to indicate "LOP" even when shoved all the way to full rich.

The operational expectation is that this is only used for short term lean finding, and that you exit and re-enter this mode when changing the mixture. Which is why the other LOP/ROP system is preferable as it requires no specific operations to work.
Click to expand...

Yep...can't do a "big pull" leaning procedure to a LOP value (standard Deakin/GAMI transition to cruise) without resetting the system halfway through the process. If you don't reset on the rich side after finding peak, it will probably display the wrong state indication (ROP) when leaned. Assuming the derived indication ("the other LOP/ROP system") was tuned closely enough to be accurate, it would correctly indicate LOP at the same time...a truly curious result.

None of this makes the numbers any less accurate. Can the text LOP/ROP indications be eliminated by using a screen setup editor? They're certainly not necessary.
 
DanH said:
Can the text LOP/ROP indications be eliminated by using a screen setup editor? They're certainly not necessary.
Click to expand...

I know you can delete the LOP/ROP indicator on the Skyview and I think you can on the D180 also but not sure.

Sounds like me and you need to go up in the -10 and play with the Dynon for an hr or so......welcome to it when it suits
 
dynonsupport said:
Let's see if I can clean this up:

1) % power. This is calculated from RPM, MAP, OAT, Altitude, and fuel flow. This is the % power the engine is making right now, with 100% being rated power at sea level on a standard day. This factors in if you are LOP or ROP as the calculation is totally different depending on that state.

2) LOP/ROP up by % power. This is the DERIVED mixture state of the engine. This uses the same data as the % power calculation to make the determination. No EGT data is used. Note it can also say PK when you are in the middle.

#1 and #2 have setup parameters that need to be correct for it to work. First, your fuel flow has to be calibrated. Once it's correct, then in setup, there is a "HP" number that needs to be set, and tweaked. You need to lean the engine watching EGT's, and tweak the HP number until the derived one matches the EGT data. The HP will be close to the rated HP of your engine, but likely a bit different.

3) LOP/ROP under the EGT bars. This is a mode you put the EGT display into. Then it tracks EGTs as you change mixture, and determines the peak for each cylinder. It marks the fuel flow for each cylinder, and once all have peaked, shows you the GAMI spread for your engine, and the degrees below peak for each cylinder. It also tells you if you are rich of the peak or lean.

#3 has no connection at all to #1 or #2.
Click to expand...

Dear Dynon support,

Was out flying today. In paragraph #3 above, (where it says #1 and #2), it talks about tweaking the HP. (188HP.) Did that. Right above that, in the "Global menu" inside the D180, it says "Engine type" The only choices are 8:5 to 1, Rotex, and other. I've got a 9 to 1. How do I put "that" in there??

Also to others reading this, how the heck does one quote just one paragraph vs the entire thread?
 
DanH said:
My goodness...you're saying, in the given scenario, if any cylinder fails to reach a peak value higher than the first time it passed peak, the system would continue to indicate "LOP" even when shoved all the way to full rich.

Yep...can't do a "big pull" leaning procedure to a LOP value (standard Deakin/GAMI transition to cruise) without resetting the system halfway through the process. If you don't reset on the rich side after finding peak, it will probably display the wrong state indication (ROP) when leaned. Assuming the derived indication ("the other LOP/ROP system") was tuned closely enough to be accurate, it would correctly indicate LOP at the same time...a truly curious result.
Click to expand...

Dan,
If you are LOP and shove full rich, both displays will say ROP. The one under EGT will say ROP as well because your fuel flow is higher than it was at peak.

The only time there is an issue is if you have changed the configuration of the engine in such a way that peak is at a different EGT or flow.

The whole reason we developed the derived LOP/ROP state is for the big pull. Once you know your engine, nobody really needs to find peak, but it's sure nice to have an accurate % power (which needs to know if you are LOP or ROP), and the ROP/LOP display is a good reminder if you forget to change your mixture after you change MAP or altitude.
 
donaziza said:
Was out flying today. In paragraph #3 above, (where it says #1 and #2), it talks about tweaking the HP. (188HP.) Did that. Right above that, in the "Global menu" inside the D180, it says "Engine type" The only choices are 8:5 to 1, Rotex, and other. I've got a 9 to 1. How do I put "that" in there??
Click to expand...

Only older software versions mention the compression ratio. There is no tweak to be made to adjust for other ratios as long as you adjust the HP number for your engine.
 
dynonsupport said:
Let's see if I can clean this up:

First, your fuel flow has to be calibrated. Once it's correct, then in setup, there is a "HP" number that needs to be set, and tweaked. You need to lean the engine watching EGT's, and tweak the HP number until the derived one matches the EGT data. The HP will be close to the rated HP of your engine, but likely a bit different.
Click to expand...

Please elaborate on the procedure for "tweaking" the HP setting.

Thanks for these very informative posts.
 
Ken Harrill said:
Please elaborate on the procedure for "tweaking" the HP setting. Thanks for these very informative posts.
Click to expand...

Yes indeed, thank you, very informative.

Could you confirm that all the "ROP/LOP" indicators can be eliminated from the screen?
 
Ken Harrill said:
Please elaborate on the procedure for "tweaking" the HP setting.
Click to expand...

From the SkyView install manual, which has a bit more detail than the D180 on this function, but they operate the same:

Horsepower is used to do some of the % power calculations (Lycoming/Continental engines only) and the auto Rich-of-Peak and Lean-of-Peak detection. Set it to the engine manufacturer's rated HP for initial usage. You may need to adjust this number in order to get all calculations working correctly.

If you are getting an auto Lean-of-Peak indication that is coming on too early, before the engine actually peaks while leaning, lower this number. It is not meant to be a measure of actual horsepower produced, as engines that are more efficient will act as if they are lower horsepower in the calculation. This will be particularly true if you are running a higher compression ratio than the stock charts are based upon.
Click to expand...
 
DanH said:
Could you confirm that all the "ROP/LOP" indicators can be eliminated from the screen?
Click to expand...

You can remove the % power and derived LOP/ROP indications as a group. You cannot remove the LOP/ROP shown under the EGT bars when in LEAN mode.
 
Adjusted HP for derived calculation.

Today I adjusted my HP number in the EMS/setup/global menu. I started at 191 HP (ECI XIO-360 9:1 compression) I had to decrease this to 168 before the lean mode EGTs and the PK occurred relatively closely. I have a GAMI spread between .1 and .2 .

Dynonsupport, does this sound consistent with your experience?

Don
 
Yes, that is expected. The more efficient the engine in converting fuel to power (which higher compression does), the lower the HP number will be.
 
dynonsupport said:
Yes, that is expected. The more efficient the engine in converting fuel to power (which higher compression does), the lower the HP number will be.
Click to expand...

That's good to know... Thanks. A follow up question if you would:

At sea level on a standard day, would the percent power be accurate, having changed from 191 to 168HP? Your previous post didn't mention the HP number being used in the % power calculation.

Don
 
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