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Starter Failure

AX-O

AX-O

Well Known Member
I had a failure on my starter yesterday. I won't post the name brand yet as I sent it in and will wait to hear back. It is one of those light weight starters without a Bendix. The starter has less than 25 starts on it. The engine is a IOX-340 with 9 to 1 pistons.

Yesterday I attempted to start my airplane. I hit the starter and the prop turned without issues. As I let go of the starter the engine caught about 3 firing cycles but I was not able to keep the engine running (still learning this fuel injection thing).

After all motion stopped, I re-attempted. Nothing... My MFDs flickered and the prop did not move. "What is going on?" I tried it again and I observed the same outcome.

Got out of the plane thinking that the prop did not want to turn because it got stuck at the top a compression cycle. "I'll just move the prop and try it again". To my surprise the prop was stuck and I could not move it. My heart just sunk. "oh boy, here we go".

Got the plane in the hangar (luckily it was at home) and took the cowling off. After inspection, I determined that the starter failed (pictures below). Spent the next hour removing the 4 nuts that hold the starter. Has anyone seen this failure before? The starter gear would not retract or turn at all. It was jammed. No damaged to the starter gear or the starter ring. The company tech told me that in over 60,000 units this is the first time he has heard of this. I am sure I am not that lucky.

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starter woes

Has it been working well for you before? The teeth do not look properly engaged in the photo. Just wondering if it is the proper starter.
Good thing you were not out cross country when it failed. Keep us posted on the results.
 
Starter Solenoid

Have not heard of any failures such as the one you have.

The light weight starters have had good and bad service history. The solenoid has been a weak part on some of the starters.

I ran a light weight permanent magnet starter for around 2,000 hour with only one solenoid replacement. A friend (based not far from you) had replaced his solenoid every several hundred hours over the same 2,000+ hours. Following manufacturer's recommendations, I sent the starter in for overhaul but the unit was too old to be overhauled so was sent a newer overhauled replacement. The replacement was eating solenoids about every 50-hours. After replacing 3 solenoids and needing a 4th, I sent the starter in and upgraded to a better starter that used less starting current and was a little heaver.
 
Starter

Axel,

I went through several of the "lightweight" starters on my engine before the company gave a trade in allowance to upgrade to the high torque NL model. Never had a lick of trouble since. The lightweights seem to be better on 320s but some guys have had good success on the 360s. With my AEIO-360 and a C/S prop the little starter just couldn't hack it.

Oly
 
Although I've never seen a starter (especially a new one) lock up like this, I certainly HAVE heard a vendor say "...I've never seen this failure in xx years..."

Seems like any time I've had a component failure go back to the vendor it's "the first time...". I'm glad (in a sense) it's not just me.

To your situation though, it sure seems one of those "way outside standard deviation", infant mortality things. Let us know what the vendor says.

And to Oly's point above. I had that same starter on my 540 but traded it in on the NL. So far so good.
 
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flightlogic said:
Has it been working well for you before?
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No issues before.

My buddy was saying since i do t have the starting procedure down quite yet that i may have damaged the starter due to the motor going to high rpms right after starts.
 
If you drain your battery while trying to start your plane, the starter will stay engaged like that. I know that from experience...:eek:

After charging my battery and trying another restart, it all worked as it should and the starter retracted after starting.
 
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It's a new 340, so it should have a 149 tooth ring. That looks like a 122 tooth ring. Am I wrong?
 
aerhed said:
It's a new 340, so it should have a 149 tooth ring. That looks like a 122 tooth ring. Am I wrong?
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Nope, you're not wrong. Definitely looks like a 122 tooth ring gear to me.

http://www.skytecair.com/RingGearTech.htm

Hopefully, Axel, you have the proper starter for a 122 tooth ring gear. Your photos make it look a bit questionable, but it could just be the angle the photo was taken from. Like others have said, the NL starter I purchased used has been flawless. Especially given the high compression 9:1 pistons of the Titan OX-340S (same engine I have, BTW). The NL starter just powers right through the compression stroke.
 
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blueflyer said:
If you drain your battery while trying to start your plane, the starter will stay engaged like that. I know that from experience...:eek:

After charging my battery and trying another restart, it all worked as it should and the starter retracted after starting.
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I will swing by the airport and check the battery. Thank you.

aerhed said:
That looks like a 122 tooth ring. Am I wrong?
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It is a 122 tooth ring.

krw5927 said:
Hopefully, Axel, you have the proper starter for a 122 tooth ring gear. Your photos make it look a bit questionable, but it could just be the angle the photo was taken from. Like others have said, the NL starter I purchased used has been flawless. Especially given the high compression 9:1 pistons of the Titan OX-340S (same engine I have, BTW). The NL starter just powers right through the compression stroke.
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I have the right starter, 122. I think the pictures/angles may be faking the eyes. I am not sure if I have enough room for an NL starter. I have a fuel line that may interfere. Hopefully it was not a dead battery and I sent the starter off for no reason.
 
Hhhmmmm....

Had the exact same thing happen in a Bellanca Scout last year....starter gear did not retract and it was a light weight starter.

Interesting to know the brand name on yours.

Cheers,

Don
 
Don Patrick said:
Had the exact same thing happen in a Bellanca Scout last year....starter gear did not retract and it was a light weight starter.

Interesting to know the brand name on yours.

Cheers,

Don
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Don,
I will post after I know the outcome. I don't want to give bad press to a company and it turns out it was me all along. This VAF web page is a powerful tool that needs to be used wisely.
 
Starter

Axel,

Reroute the fuel line and install an NL starter on that 340. A little work maybe but you're a smart guy. You will not be sorry and you'll be glad you did when you try to hot start that beast.

Oly
 
The internal solenoid on those starters are the cause of the failure. I have been there a few times. Replace it with the NL model. The manufacturer will give you trade in value toward a NL model.
 
For sure

AX-O said:
Don,
I will post after I know the outcome. I don't want to give bad press to a company and it turns out it was me all along. This VAF web page is a powerful tool that needs to be used wisely.
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Should have been a little more specific...after your investigation is complete!

Cheers

Don
 
blueflyer said:
If you drain your battery while trying to start your plane, the starter will stay engaged like that. I know that from experience...:eek:

After charging my battery and trying another restart, it all worked as it should and the starter retracted after starting.
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I checked my battery today. It showed 12.4-12.5 volts.
 
God, don't get me started on the Sky-Tec lightweight starters. There is so much posted about these units failing that.......well, draw your own conclusions.

If they allow it, ask them if you can trade it in on a NL unit. These are much better constructed, have a lower gear ratio than the B&C starters, of which I am a big fan, and work well on engines with higher compression ratios. Do this and it will keep you from getting stranded somewhere. Eventually, it will break again.
 
Since I just had solenoid #2 intermittently fail on my own LS starter after 200 hours, I took the time to learn all I could about these starters. I figured out they are based on Ford PMGR starter motors as used in Crown Vic's among many other models. Take a look at Axel's pinion gear and see how it's hard up against the casting with zero clearance, and the chipped paint where the gear slammed into the casting:
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Based on that pic, I'd suspect the mfgr forgot to install the stop collar (below) that goes over the stop ring on the front of the shaft, between the gear and nose casting:

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Without that stop collar, the stop ring (below) could bury itself into the nose casting and gear, jamming it in place. Soon enough we'll find out if that's the case (provided they tell Axel what actually went wrong...) .

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Starters

All: In 1995, I removed a geared Delco Remy starter, and installed a Toyota truck starter. Saved about 8 pounds, and the starter has functioned flawlessly since....Th Delco failed about 3 times between 86 and 95. Fortunately, always at home....

Am thinking the starter cost about $75 new....and a bracket can be fabbed out of 2024 angle (hmmm, thinking 3x3x1/4 or so) So, food for thought...John
 
Lube it

I had this happen on both my Grumman Yankee and Bannana Puddin. I don't think it is uncommon, and I was told (by Sky-tec in the 2nd case, iirc) to lube the shaft with silicone spray, and to include that as part of annual maintenance. Seems to have worked. At least when it's stuck in the out position it's easy to get lube on the shaft!
 
johnf_1 said:
All: In 1995, I removed a geared Delco Remy starter, and installed a Toyota truck starter. Saved about 8 pounds, and the starter has functioned flawlessly since....Th Delco failed about 3 times between 86 and 95. Fortunately, always at home....

Am thinking the starter cost about $75 new....and a bracket can be fabbed out of 2024 angle (hmmm, thinking 3x3x1/4 or so) So, food for thought...John
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Did you swap out the pinion gear? What mods were required? Do you have a picture?
 
Well? I heard back from Sky Tec today. I spoke with a gentleman named John at rebuilding. Nice and courteous guy. He told me the failure occurred because a ?C clip? which is installed on the transmission departed its original location. The ?C clip? could not be found. The function of the ?C clip? is to stop the starter gear at a certain traveled distance and keep it from hitting the starter case. That is why the gear was jammed on the starter case.

So I will be getting a rebuilt starter at no cost under warranty (yeaaaa!). But I am out about $80 for shipping both ways (boooo). Hoping to install it this weekend and get a flight in (fingers crossed).
 
AX-O said:
Well… I heard back from Sky Tec today. I spoke with a gentleman named John at rebuilding. Nice and courteous guy. He told me the failure occurred because a “C clip” which is installed on the transmission departed its original location. The “C clip” could not be found. The function of the “C clip” is to stop the starter gear at a certain traveled distance and keep it from hitting the starter case. That is why the gear was jammed on the starter case.
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Looks like Heinrich got it right, (See post 19.) you owe him a free ice cream sundae.;)

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A hint on shipping. Some years ago I needed to send my starter back to Sky Tec. The USPS has a program "if it fits, it ship". i was able to use the USPS provided box and the starter just fit, so shipping cost just $15.00.

The problem I had with the starter was covered under warrenty. No, it was not the same problem as detailed by OP.
 
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