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Rust vs Us

hevansrv7a

Well Known Member
I have posted regarding dehydrators before but I thought perhaps it would be best to isolate the subject and to offer some evidence that I think reasonably supports my assertion that we should use one.

Facts include:

1. Humidity is relative. This means that hotter air can hold a greater quantity of moisture in vapor form. It also means that there is for any air that contains some moisture, a dew point that is usually lower than ambient. That's often reported by automated systems at airports, for instance. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point

2. The byproducts of burning avgas include large quantities of carbon dioxide and hydrogen dioxide AKA water. That's because gasoline is mostly carbon and hydrogen. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
"Energy is obtained from the combustion of gasoline by the conversion of a hydrocarbon to carbon dioxide and water. The combustion of octane follows this reaction:

2 C8H18 + 25 O2 → 16 CO2 + 18 H2O"

The water produced by burning avgas is in vapor form because the exhaust is hot.

3. All piston engines but especially loose ones such as our air-cooled ones allow some of the exhaust to pass down past the rings into the internal spaces of the engine. We have crankcase vents for a reason.

4. The dew point of the moist air inside the engine that has reached operating temperature and then is shut down is almost certainly higher than the ambient temperature at the destination airport.

My own Logical Conclusion:

You will wet the inside of your engine every time you fly it and then stop it for more than an hour or so (actual ambient conditions control the cooling rate, actual interval). More exactly, when the engine cools it will reach the dew point long before it reaches ambient temperature and the necessary consequence is that there will be liquid water inside your engine. Again.

My Evidence that the Dehydrator Works:

While my new engine was waiting to be installed in my unfinished airplane it had clear plastic water absorbing "plugs" where the upper plugs would go. They were filled with a material that I think is the same silica gel that comes in little packets with packaged electronics. Anyhow, the beads contained some indicator beads which are blue when dry and pink when fully wet. My plugs gradually changed from blue to pink. I then purchased and began using the dehydrator that I still use. Within a few days, the indicator plugs in the engine changed back to blue and stayed that way. I interpret that as a direct indication of the humidity inside the engine. The particular dehydrator that I use is just a much bigger version of those plugs that came with my engine plus an air pump that is commonly used for aquariums. It blows ambient air into the jug full of beads and then the dried air comes out the other side and goes up the oil vent pipe into the engine. A slight positive pressure is maintained inside the engine and the dry air escapes via the exhaust pipes.

I am agnostic as to which device should be used. I am happy with mine. Some friends saw mine and built their own and those work the same. Some manufacturers use a mechanical device which is like the dehumidifier for a house's basement. I'm of the opinion that those will work, too.
 
I doubt very much that a new engine needs a dehydrator. All of the bearing surfaces are covered in a thick assembly lube. The cylinder walls should be as well. Engines can last many years in this state as far as I am aware. If there are engine experts out there who know better please correct me.

But for an engine in operation I can certainly see the advantages of this.
 
I doubt very much that a new engine needs a dehydrator. All of the bearing surfaces are covered in a thick assembly lube. The cylinder walls should be as well. Engines can last many years in this state as far as I am aware. If there are engine experts out there who know better please correct me.

But for an engine in operation I can certainly see the advantages of this.

If an engine was assembled and shipped maybe, but the engines are dyno tested before shipment. Pretty well preserved as received from Lycoming, but after mounting to the airframe, the exhaust is open to the world. If it is in a hangar, then the engine temperatures will lag the outside, when the warm humid winds blow, the cooler engine collects moisture. My new (unrun by me) is on a dehydrator since the exhaust system was installed. You can bag a desiccant pack over the exhaust and intake too. But something is prudent, even in a (my) climate controlled basement.
 
Cheapest solution is to stay West of the rockies and East of the coastal States. That there region is known as the Great Dehumidifier Basin.
 
If you are going to use the Silica Beads, they do have a maximum capacity. Once saturated, they are done, unless heated and "dried" back out.
Do you know what their saturation level/capacity is? How are they rated? How to calculate it? I sure don't.

I dehumidify the entire hangar with a commercial dehumidifier that pumps the water it collects to a drain. Probably not as effective as putting a system directly on the exhaust or breather, but it also protects the airframe, tools, and other equipment in the hangar. They are amazingly efficient.

Your best bet to prevent internal corrosion is to fly, at least once a month. I also use premium oils with appropriate additives built in.

2 cents. your welcome ;)
 
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If you are going to use the Silica Beads, they do have a maximum capacity. Once saturated, they are done, unless heated and "dried" back out.
Do you know what their saturation level/capacity is? How are they rated? How to calculate it? I sure don't.

I dehumidify the entire hangar with a commercial dehumidifier that pumps the water it collects to a drain. Probably not as effective as putting a system directly on the exhaust or breather, but it also protects the airframe, tools, and other equipment in the hangar. They are amazingly efficient.

Your best bet to prevent internal corrosion is to fly, at least once a month. I also use premium oils with appropriate additives built in.

2 cents. your welcome ;)

The beads that came with mine are, as noted, sprinkled with indicator beads which change color. The normal procedure is to put them in a low temp oven for a while until they turn fully blue again.

I disagree as I explained initially regarding flying as a preventive measure, let alone "best". I'm not saying don't do it, only that it won't do a thing for moisture and moisture is necessary for rust. It creates more moisture. Why is that point so often overlooked?

I note in passing that some say once a week, some say once a month. It's well known how fast the oil drains off the parts so I don't know where this particular bit of wisdom is coming from. If "premium" oils with whatever additives they contain were sufficient I suspect we would not be having this conversation.
 
The beads that came with mine are, as noted, sprinkled with indicator beads which change color. The normal procedure is to put them in a low temp oven for a while until they turn fully blue again.

.

Can you use a microwave?
 
It's well known how fast the oil drains off the parts so I don't know where this particular bit of wisdom is coming from. If "premium" oils with whatever additives they contain were sufficient I suspect we would not be having this conversation.

So then how fast DOES oil drain off parts? Whats well known/reported is that the primary reason for engines not making TBO is them sitting long periods of time between flights so that they do not have a protective coating of oil. You may well be correct that a dehumidifiers would improve things further, but I havent seen the data for that nor even wide-spread claims that that is indeed the case.

erich
 
I disagree as I explained initially regarding flying as a preventive measure, let alone "best". I'm not saying don't do it, only that it won't do a thing for moisture and moisture is necessary for rust. It creates more moisture. Why is that point so often overlooked?

I note in passing that some say once a week, some say once a month. It's well known how fast the oil drains off the parts so I don't know where this particular bit of wisdom is coming from. If "premium" oils with whatever additives they contain were sufficient I suspect we would not be having this conversation.
Your not adding moisture each time you fly. What you generated last flight after shut down is displaced by the oil when you start up, circulates, gets heated and boiled, and blown out the breather or "suspended" (probably a bad word) in the oil ready to condense inside the engine when you shut down.
When running, almost all of the water is going out with the exhaust. It is an impressive amount as you know. Only a fraction is left to condense. That fraction is the concern.
I think this is a good discussion, but using a premium oil or additive and flying regularly is sage advice received from operators I know who exceed TBO in their fleet(s). This isn't arguable. What is flying frequently enough? Probably has a lot of factors like how the engine is operated to the environment it is operated in.
I'm moving to Bakersfield.! (Uhhh, No, I'm not regardless of the pay) ;)
What seems to be arguable is the benefit of a dehumidifier, which I would summize correlates with how much you do or do not fly and the relative humidity you keep the machine in.
 
Oil drain off comparisons in humidity chamber.

So then how fast DOES oil drain off parts? Whats well known/reported is that the primary reason for engines not making TBO is them sitting long periods of time between flights so that they do not have a protective coating of oil. You may well be correct that a dehumidifiers would improve things further, but I havent seen the data for that nor even wide-spread claims that that is indeed the case.

erich

One has only to look for the data. Read part three of this article. It addresses the oil run off effects in a humidity chamber. And follows up with a rust test with a dehydrator.

http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Article-Sutton.pdf

no oil - 4 days
oiled - 5 days
cam guard - 19 days
 
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One has only to look for the data. Read part three of this article. It addresses the oil run off effects in a humidity chamber.

http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Article-Sutton.pdf

no oil - 4 days
oiled - 5 days
cam guard - 19 days

Bill - your an engineer. I am not. However, there is so much wrong with this testing methodology, I don't even know where to start. Lifters are not left in free air inside our engine. They are also full of oil. Oiled parts make contact with other oiled parts. Of course a bare piece of metal is going to rust in short order in free air and of course oil will run off of parts in time. There is no argument an engine that has been sitting will show some signs of corrosion in a sensitive oil analysis. I bet that would show in short order too.
What isn't known is at what point it starts to impact the life of the engine. Having operated multiple engines past TBO without anything other than normal and prudent operating, and consulting with others of much greater experience than I, I am just not entirely buying into to the statements made in the article you posted.
If you are in an environment conducive to corrosion, And don't fly often, the benefit to your steel parts might be there. However, this isn't going to help keep seals and gaskets fresh like flying will. I would also argue that blowing air past parts might actually scavenge oil away from them that otherwise might be happily sitting there. I will stick with my whole room dehumidifier which makes my hangar a better environment, not just the engine.
 
dryness works data, sort of

So then how fast DOES oil drain off parts? Whats well known/reported is that the primary reason for engines not making TBO is them sitting long periods of time between flights so that they do not have a protective coating of oil. You may well be correct that a dehumidifiers would improve things further, but I havent seen the data for that nor even wide-spread claims that that is indeed the case.

erich

search on "aviation boneyard".
example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_boneyard
Thus I believe that the wide-spread claims have indeed been made, at least in that context and there's a lot of $$ at stake.

I am not arguing against a whole hangar dehumidifier at all but not all hangars nor in all locations can keep everything above the dewpoint. The real issue is that the dewpoint inside the engine shortly after touchdown will not be affected by the whole hangar approach.
 
Keep the pump up high

If you do go the route of an aquarium air pump and desiccant beads please don't let the unit sit on the floor during use.

Last year, one of the local airports flooded and some planes managed to keep their fuselages above the water level. It'd be a crying shame if that little aquarium air pump filled your engine with water because it was sitting on the floor or a small stool/platform when only the gear legs got wet.
 
So then how fast DOES oil drain off parts? Whats well known/reported is that the primary reason for engines not making TBO is them sitting long periods of time between flights so that they do not have a protective coating of oil. You may well be correct that a dehumidifiers would improve things further, but I havent seen the data for that nor even wide-spread claims that that is indeed the case.

erich

By and Large, We don't wear engines out, we rust them out. It just makes sense to keep the inside of an engine dry to prevent rust. Oil drain off is also part of the problem. Using a single grade viscosity oil like Aeroshell W100 with Camguard is the best way I know of to help slow down the oil drain off. Attack the rust problem with a multi prog approach.
 
I am not arguing against a whole hangar dehumidifier at all but not all hangars nor in all locations can keep everything above the dewpoint. The real issue is that the dewpoint inside the engine shortly after touchdown will not be affected by the whole hangar approach.

Your not going to impact the dew point much with an aquarium pump. What we are fighting is a high temperature, high hunidity environment that is rapidly cooling. You won't be able to catch up. What you are doing with your set up is starting the process of lowering the humidity by scavenging the water out of the system.
Now, where is that water going? Your beads lower the humidity of the air surrounding it (hangar air) and put it into your case. It then goes out the exhaust pipe and back into the same air in the hangar. Your beads can only absorb so much water out of the hangar air until they are saturated. If your hangar is a high humidity environment, the beads are not going to last as long.
I keep my hangar at 50% relative humidity. I can take a water saturated coat and it will hang dry in less than 24 hours. Since our engines are open to the air, I expect a similar result in my engine. The water isn't staying in the hangar. It is going down the drain.
So, there is a lot going on that affects what may or may not be effective, mostly the environment you store your airplane in. I believe that has the biggest impact on engine and airframe health, but, again, I am not moving to Bakersfield!:)
 
"Cheapest? I've looked at the housing prices in California."

Never mind the housing prices, have you seen the taxes??? ;-)

~Marc

Yeah - they are low too!!! - the property taxes are 3-4X lower than mine in Illinois. The median home in Marin Co is $688k, median taxes are $5700. Dang low rate.
 
Your not going to impact the dew point much with an aquarium pump. What we are fighting is a high temperature, high hunidity environment that is rapidly cooling. You won't be able to catch up. What you are doing with your set up is starting the process of lowering the humidity by scavenging the water out of the system.
Now, where is that water going? Your beads lower the humidity of the air surrounding it (hangar air) and put it into your case. It then goes out the exhaust pipe and back into the same air in the hangar. Your beads can only absorb so much water out of the hangar air until they are saturated. If your hangar is a high humidity environment, the beads are not going to last as long.
I keep my hangar at 50% relative humidity. I can take a water saturated coat and it will hang dry in less than 24 hours. Since our engines are open to the air, I expect a similar result in my engine. The water isn't staying in the hangar. It is going down the drain.
So, there is a lot going on that affects what may or may not be effective, mostly the environment you store your airplane in. I believe that has the biggest impact on engine and airframe health, but, again, I am not moving to Bakersfield!:)

Jon, do a little experiment. Take an empty jug, milk, juice, and put some water in it. Then add 3 ft of 5/8" ID hose. Take the cap off and weigh your jug with an oz of water in it. Put the cap on with the hose and sit it in your hangar. Reweigh it every week. Note the weight reduction and report back. The scale should be able to resolve 0.1 g. This is about the same length and diameter of a breather. If yours is shorter, then choose an appropriate length.
 
Jon, do a little experiment. Take an empty jug, milk, juice, and put some water in it. Then add 3 ft of 5/8" ID hose. Take the cap off and weigh your jug with an oz of water in it. Put the cap on with the hose and sit it in your hangar. Reweigh it every week. Note the weight reduction and report back. The scale should be able to resolve 0.1 g. This is about the same length and diameter of a breather. If yours is shorter, then choose an appropriate length.

Point well taken Bill.
 
Sorry, I was in a hurry. There might be a valve or two open along with the breather and the surface area exposed might be a bit more, but again, your right. It won't dry out like my coat example.
I do think it is important for those considering what to do, if anything, that eventually the inside of the engine will normalize with its environment. It will take on the same relative humidity if it is left alone. If your going to use a dehumidifier on the engine, I would use the type that can dispose the water outside of the hangar and keep it hooked up all the time unless your hangar is itself a low humidity environment or there is concern about something else.

Fun discussion. Not sure it is resolving anything as I still say "fly it like you stole it" is the best corrosion protection you can find.
 
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There have been a few assertions that are, I think, meant to suggest that either I'm wrong about how (or how well) the dehumidifier works or even if there is a need. Most or all of those assertions either misunderstand or worse.

First, as to the content of the vapors inside the engine at shutdown, they are almost certainly the same as the exhaust gas since they come from exactly the same source. There may not be much in the way of quantity but there is provably a non-trivial quantity of water in vapor form in that saturated vapor. I have seen water droplets inside an engine.

If you think that 50% RH is good enough that's your prerogative but for me, if it's 50% at noon and it gets cold at night then am I still safe? Here is a dewpoint calculator.
http://www.calculator.net/dew-point...&dewpointunit=farenheit&humidity=99&x=49&y=10

Here is a readable source for how much actual water can be held in vapor form in suspension.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/relhum.html
and
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/moisture-holding-capacity-air-d_281.html
Notice in this one how the curve goes almost vertical at about 150 F.

The kind I use pumps DRY air into the engine. In a reasonable period of time the vapor and even the liquid water inside the engine will necessarily evaporate. This was proven by the indicator beads that came with my engine which are as far as I can tell exactly the same as the indicator beads in my device. The device came with a second bottle. I use one and dry the other's contents then swap them when the blue beads begin to look less bright. I don't even wait for the pink to show. It is simply not relevant what happens to the air that is pushed out of the engine and treating an open environment as if it were a close one is really way off point. The device is designed to take in moist air and pump out dry air and to eventually need to have the medium, the beads, dried out so they can be re-used. The colored beads indicate the status of the beads along this continuum. There is nothing complicated nor difficult about this.

So my summary for now is:
1. the changing color of the beads proves it works or is working.
2. the change in color inside the plugs that came with my engine proved the need even before I operated it.
3. a fish tank pump is all you need because there is some back pressure and once you have dry air inside the engine you only have to maintain a slight positive pressure. The pump's output is adjustable and can easily be checked with a wet finger.
4. while drying the air inside the engine need not be the only approach, it is certainly one that a reasonable person would use given the low cost and high efficacy. A low RH hangar is good for everything in the hangar so it's desirable but not necessarily sufficient. Flying your airplane is good but it is beyond debate that each time you do it, there is a repeat of the very high RH vapor inside the engine at shutdown. If you fly it often enough then there will always be oil film protecting it. Do you know for sure either how often that is or when, for sure, you will fly it again?
 
I think your system will work fine, in the right environment.
50% humidity will not promote rust in machinery in storage at 70deg. F.
You will be fine at night. Your engine, in storage, is the same temperature as the surrounding air. Unless you are in an un-insulated hangar or outside, you shouldn't see the temperature differential. As your temp drops, so does the dew point at 50% RH. If you don't dehumidify in an insulated hangar conditions can exist that would cause dew. I've seen it in every hangar I have owned. The dehumidifier prevents this.
Flying monthly is like an olds wives tale. Where I live, it has worked well for me to keep engine and airplane healthy. If I lived in the Southeast, at the coast, perhaps not. I don't think there is any imperial data, just long term observations.
Perhaps the ideal would be to dehumidify the hangar and use a dehydrator system after flight for your engine.
Forun discussions often evolve through seemingly argumentive tracts. It is just a discussion and nobody is picking on you personally. Fun discussion.
 
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