VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #1  
Old 03-15-2021, 02:11 PM
rileyspoon rileyspoon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: WINSTON SALEM
Posts: 20
Default PIC Question

Question for you CFI folks out there. I'm licensed as a Sport Pilot but I recently decided to pay for a couple of hours in an Archer just to get the exposure to a low wing aircraft that was not an LSA. To date all my training and flying has been in a high wing LSA and I'm now building an RV-12iS.

The CFI for that flight said I should log the time as PIC. Seems like the requirements for PIC say something to the effect that I'm supposed to be endorsed for that class and type of aircraft. The Archer is not one that a SP is allowed to fly solo so wouldn't this time really be logged as "dual". Not sure how much difference it makes but I want my logbook to be correct.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-15-2021, 04:03 PM
bill.hutchison bill.hutchison is offline
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rileyspoon View Post
Question for you CFI folks out there. I'm licensed as a Sport Pilot but I recently decided to pay for a couple of hours in an Archer just to get the exposure to a low wing aircraft that was not an LSA. To date all my training and flying has been in a high wing LSA and I'm now building an RV-12iS.

The CFI for that flight said I should log the time as PIC. Seems like the requirements for PIC say something to the effect that I'm supposed to be endorsed for that class and type of aircraft. The Archer is not one that a SP is allowed to fly solo so wouldn't this time really be logged as "dual". Not sure how much difference it makes but I want my logbook to be correct.
Fun area of discussion. You don't have to BE PIC to be able to LOG PIC. There's a couple of good FAA Letters of Interpretation on this - look up the Herman and the Speranza interpretations.

Short version: your sport pilot certificate allows you to LOG PIC under 61.51e while you are sole manipulator of the controls, even though the CFI is the ACTING PIC.

A lot of private pilots keep a separate column in the logbook for "61.51 time" where they can't actually BE the PIC but still log it.

This is one of those things that I strongly encourage my students to look up, read and understand. It's easy to source a CFI's opinion on the internet, but, now that you're pointed in the right direction, read up on 61.5, 61.51 and the concept of logging vs. acting as PIC. It yields some interesting scenarios.

Last edited by bill.hutchison : 03-15-2021 at 04:20 PM. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-15-2021, 04:28 PM
Taltruda Taltruda is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 661
Default

Can you provide a link to this? My reading of part 61.51 makes me think he cannot log pic time.
Herman and Speranza involve both pilots being rated Private pilots. ..
__________________
Tom
Las Vegas
RV-8 empenage finished 10-2020

Wings Started.. 11-2020

Last edited by Taltruda : 03-15-2021 at 04:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-15-2021, 04:49 PM
bill.hutchison bill.hutchison is offline
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltruda View Post
Can you provide a link to this? My reading of part 61.51 makes me think he cannot log pic time.
Herman and Speranza involve both pilots being rated Private pilots. ..
His sport pilot certificate applies to category and class - in this case, ASEL.

Both letters of interpretation involve pilots logging PIC where they hold category and class but lack ability to ACT as PIC. Both letters point out that he can LOG PIC per 61.51 but cannot ACT as PIC. Notice the wording of 61.51(e)(1)(i) relative to sport pilot.

I've also bounced this off a local DPE whom I know well. If he's ambivalent, I'll also confirm it with the FSDO, but I'm reasonably certain on this.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-15-2021, 06:04 PM
rileyspoon rileyspoon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: WINSTON SALEM
Posts: 20
Default

Thanks for all the responses. I read several places before posting the question and nothing seemed to address this specific situation so I thought I'd ask. Be interested to hear what the DPE thinks.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-15-2021, 06:50 PM
DGlaeser DGlaeser is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 900
Default

Bill Hutchinson fundamentally has it correct.

However in this case a Light Sport (only) pilot is NOT rated in an Archer (not an LSA). So he can not log PIC, only dual.

If the pilot has a Private certificate, but is operating without a medical (so limited to Light Sport operations), then he can still log PIC, but obviously can not be the acting PIC.

Been through this many times.
__________________
Dennis Glaeser CFII
Rochester Hills, MI
RV-7A - Eggenfellner H6, GRT Sport ES, EIS4000, 300XL, SL30, TT Gemini, PMA6000, AK950L, GT320,
uAvionixEcho ADSB in/out with GRT Safe Fly GPS
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-15-2021, 09:13 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,022
Default

Iím a CFII and I agree with Dennis. A sport pilot cannot log PIC time in an aircraft that does not meet the definition of a light sport aircraft (2 seats, max gross, fixed gear, etc.). The SP can log the time as dual if the CFI is not rated as a CFI with light sport privileges as opposed to a CFI not limited to light sport. In addition if the CFI that trained the SP for the SP license is not limited to light sport the dual time logged for SP can be credited against a PPL and higher rating.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:51 AM
DaleB's Avatar
DaleB DaleB is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Omaha, NE (KMLE)
Posts: 2,306
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller View Post
In addition if the CFI that trained the SP for the SP license is not limited to light sport the dual time logged for SP can be credited against a PPL and higher rating.
It can if his CFI was a SFI-S, also. That changed several years ago.
__________________
Dale

Omaha, NE
RV-12 # 222 N980KM "Screamin' Canary" (bought flying)
Fisher Celebrity (under construction)
Previous RV-7 project (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-16-2021, 07:43 AM
bill.hutchison bill.hutchison is offline
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGlaeser View Post
Bill Hutchinson fundamentally has it correct.

However in this case a Light Sport (only) pilot is NOT rated in an Archer (not an LSA). So he can not log PIC, only dual.
His certificate applies to category and class - there is nothing that specifies LSA in the certificate issuance nor in 61.51. Logging PIC is pretty explicit that it's category and class, and LSAs aren't a separate category or class...there's no rating for a make/model in this case.

I am not disputing that he cannot act as PIC, but I believe he can log PIC under 61.51.

EDIT: The Speranza letters seem to be the closest on this, but now I'm really curious and I'm contacting someone I work with who also works for the FSDO. Happy to admit I'm wrong if I am.

Last edited by bill.hutchison : 03-16-2021 at 07:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-16-2021, 08:41 AM
bill.hutchison bill.hutchison is offline
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
Default

Further update - I heard back from the DPE this morning, who is also with the local FAAST group and he concurs that the sport pilot in this scenario can log PIC.

Waiting to hear from the FSDO guy.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:45 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.