Should I even consider it?

So, there's an RV-4 up for sale in the local area. They don't come up too often in my part of the world, and at first glance, it seems a good deal. RV-4, new O-320-A1A and Sensenichfixed-pitch prop, well maintained, fully painted/primed inside & out. Very low hours. Always hangared.

Dig a little deeper, it was completed in 1996. Has done ~180 hours since then. Last flown at last annual in June '09. Engine compressions were all >75 at that annual.

Now, if this was being flown regularly and had 500 hours on it, I'd be jumping at the opportunity. But the low hours over such a long period have me a little worried. The guy who built it, it's his one-and-only. I have no reason to question anything he's said about the aircraft, he's lost his medical and simply can't fly it anymore. He doesn't want to let it go, but the time has come. He's not handing out information on the build or the condition or anything though, I really had to push to get the answers. I put that down to how he must be feeling about selling it.

Now, I've not done a thorough inspection as yet. I wanted to solicit some feedback first on whether I should just walk away from this. It could be the deal of a lifetime, or it could be the worst mistake I'll ever make! My heart says, "RV-4 for xx price, you'll never do better". My brain (and my wife) say "you can't really afford it right now, there are just too many reasons why this is a bad idea" (I can afford it, kinda, the funds are available from the home loan if I want them). Between myself and a friend/colleague who has vast aviation engineering experience I'm sure we could do a thorough pre-buy...

What to do?

Inspection

Alexis

My advice is if it's what you really want and they don't come up too often, then pay the money to get a experienced RV person to give it a complete inspection.
As for the engine, it depends upon the conditions it's been stored in. Hot and dry most likely ok, near the coast more than likely to suffer from internal rust. You could always pay to have a pot removed and inspect the cam shaft etc.

Cheers

Peter

Low hours

Hi

Before you buy you should have it checked out from top to bottom for quality of rivetting, engine condition, etc. That goes without saying.

Whether you shoulkd buy, well this reminds meof one of my regrets in life. I have always wanted a Vincent Rapide ( motorbike). I came across a Norvin.... Norton Featherbed frame with a Vincent HRD motor. It was ?900 and money was tight.

I didnt buy, but I think if I had we could have got through and I probably would still have that bike now and it would be worth 10 times that amount.

But, the question is can you also afford to run it, hangar it, etc. If finances are tight why not consider buying in partnership with someone else?

Ask me how I know!

You have answered your own question. Your wife says you cannot really afford buying this RV-4. You need to get the full support of close members of your family when you embark on something like this otherwise it could end up in tears. Take off those rose tinted shades and sit and discuss this fully with your wife. If you are stretching to afford the cost of purchase, what will happen if some unforeseen expense comes up. Take into account the fixed costs and the flying costs. Ask yourself "Do I want to own a hangar queen?" Because that what the plane will end up being if you cannot afford to fly it. My motto is Family first, Flying second.

All good advice and I very much agree with Anthony - you gotta get the wife on board for sure, and especially so if finances are at all an issue. I would expect in the dry climate of Perth, the engine is more likely to be unrusted than some other places (like Darwin), but it may also depend on how close to the ocean the plane has been kept. Definitely worth someone checking out the engine (as well as the other stuff).

good luck.

greg

Airplanes run on money!

If you have a tight budget I would not get into a plane now. Maybe you can afford to start building and end up with your own plane in several years. Then you can spend money as you can afford it. This plane could end up needing cylinders or worse a major if it has corrosion from the engine sitting.

Maybe you could find a partner and make it affordable!

WAM120RV said:

Hi

Whether you shoulkd buy, well this reminds meof one of my regrets in life. I have always wanted a Vincent Rapide ( motorbike). I came across a Norvin.... Norton Featherbed frame with a Vincent HRD motor. It was ?900 and money was tight.

I didnt buy, but I think if I had we could have got through and I probably would still have that bike now and it would be worth 10 times that amount.
?

Click to expand...

Vincent, what a gorgeous and powerful machine... Here's one in the US.
http://www.thevincent.com/Sam-MonumentValley.jpg

"10 Times as much"? There's a Norvin here for $35k http://www.thevincent.com/

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread...

Norvin

Well at least I have my RV4!

fly.more.work.less said:

Dig a little deeper, it was completed in 1996. Has done ~180 hours since then. Last flown at last annual in June '09. Engine compressions were all >75 at that annual.

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Wow, that?s about one hour a month. How can one spend thousands of hours building this plane, only to fly it that amount of time? Flying it that little, I sure would want to independently confirm the compression readings.

He's not handing out information on the build or the condition or anything though, I really had to push to get the answers. I put that down to how he must be feeling about selling it.

Click to expand...

That still shouldn?t prevent him from being happy to talk about anything and everything about his baby. You should feel comfortable about the seller.

Between myself and a friend/colleague who has vast aviation engineering experience I'm sure we could do a thorough pre-buy...

Click to expand...

It would still do you well to try to find another RV-4 builder that has built one if you really start to get serious about this plane. He will know about things that the aviation engineer is sure not to know about unless he was one such builder himself of this particular plane.

The suggestion of a partner for this plane doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Best of luck.

If you don't do it now, you'll just be older when you do.

CuriousGeorge said:

If you don't do it now, you'll just be older when you do.

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Oh, that's just sooo true!

Thanks for all the advice and comments folks. I think I'll be passing on the opportunity for now (I'd rather keep the wife for another 20 years than buy an aircraft without her blessing).

Sometimes you just get lucky

July of 2008 purchased a completed RV-3 with a 160 hp lyc for $3k. The airplane had been damaged in a landing accident. Fifty-five hundred dollars later I had a 210mph RV-3 with the wing mod. Sold it to a really nice guy in Italy. Yesterday Jan 31, I bought three -4 kits. Empennage completed, wings 60%, and the fuselage still in the box for $2k. Problem is I am in the middle of a 9. I guess you just gotta keep you ears clean and not be afraid to offer something less. Bought a completed brand new Bradley Aerobat with a new Revemaster for $2.5k. People, there are good deals out there!

Consider the time factor as well.

Building any aircraft will burn up heaps of time. If you have someone who is selling a sound RV 4 you can buy buy and fly right away, that has got to be good. Either way time is money. Maybe you could do some extra hours at work if you could be more cost effective working with computers. It also depends whether you enjoy building plane as an end in itself.

I live in Perth and have been building an RV since forever. Who is selling the plane ?

My Plane Blog

A partner?

Is it any chance that you could find a partner for a 50-50 ownership?
That way, the plane could be affordable for you now maybe?

Also; I'd do as others have suggested: have someone do a REALLY good checkup of the plane and it's documentation.

One day, we all will loose our licence, and all the flying you haven't done until that day won't ever be done....
Therefore, do as much flying as you can as early you can...

WARNING: don't get a ride in the plane until you're pretty sure you can afford it! why? Because after the ride, you'll have the RV-grin on your face and that can't be deleted easily....

Absolutely !!

ao.frog said:

One day, we all will loose our licence, and all the flying you haven't done until that day won't ever be done....
Therefore, do as much flying as you can as early you can...

Click to expand...

My point entirely !! You put it much better than I did

Low Hours - Often there are good reasons for this...

If you're concerned about low hours (I read in a previous post an average of 1 hour per month?) you should take a look at some of the reasons why low time happens with high calendar age. I fly with an octogenarian gentleman and am beginning to have some insight into why there are airplanes that have more years that hours.

At 80, there are days when this fellow just doesn't feel like flying - he knows he doesn't have the physical or mental strength, and he doesn't fly unless he's at the top of his game. If he gets sick it takes him much longer to recover than it would a 40 year old fellow. If the weather is too cold he really doesn't want to fight the elements. And if he has any doubt something isn't exactly "right" with his airplane, no matter what it is, that airplane stays grounded until he's 100% confident that it's in top flying condition.

That's a little viewing porthole on the life of an individual who dreads his next aviation medical. The individual selling the -4 might have gone through a few years of being in the same mode of operation, resulting in low hours on the airframe.

Oh, by the way... My 80 year old friend operates an airplane built in 1977; it has a little over 2700 hours on the airframe. It's still on the original O-320 which by now has run several hundred hours past TBO. Compressions are still good, oil analysis is still good. And we don't live in a "dry" area but rather one that gets its fair share of humidity, including standing water in the hangar in the spring of the year.

Living in fear of what might be inside the engine isn't wise. If you're serious, spend some cash to do a decent internal inspection and if nothing is visible, buy the airplane, fly it, and keep doing spectroscopic oil analysis and carefully watch trends shown by that analysis. Even doing this you'll have no protection against metal that cracks instead of wears, so always, always fly with that little voice in the back of your head saying "what happens if the engine quits right now?". This same logic applies to a brand new engine as equally as it does to an experienced engine.

Good reply, Mark

....An old A@P/IA told me once that he'd much rather rebuild an engine and fly behind it over a new engine. He said that if the case hasn't cracked in 2000+ hours, it's not going to....it's "seasoned" through many heat cycles.

A new engine is an unknown, so he said, and it proved to be true. At a Cessna Ag dealership I worked for in the 70's, we had a bunch of new, low time IO-520 Conti's crack cases, which were replaced under warranty but the ones with high time that didn't crack, wouldn't crack after overhauls either. We ran them hard...25"/2500 RPM all day!

Best,