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NorCal IFR Arrival Planning

M

Mountain Time

Active Member
Looks like I'll be flying down from the Seattle area to the Bay Area in early August. Most likely I'll be coming down via Medford, the Siskiyous, and Red Bluff. Most likely destination will be San Carlos (KSQL), which appears to use the Point Reyes 3 arrival.

I've flown into KCCR several times VFR, but this would be my first trip to the area on an IFR plan. I've had the rating less than a year and so am still doing a lot of learning especially in the practical aspects of flight planning.

And so my question is: as a practical matter, how much detail should I put into a proposed flight plan once I'm approaching the north Bay area? List POPES as a fix and then Point Reyes and the arrival procedure from there? Or should I expect vectors starting up in the vicinity of POPES and just have KSQL be the next point in the flight plan? Or???

I guess what I'm looking for is practical feedback from those who've flown this area IFR, in terms of what to really expect and how to flight plan it so that both ATC and I have the simplest job with the fewest headaches. And if there are any "gotchas" to look out for, I'd sure like to have a heads up.

Thanks for your help -

JHW
 
DOn't know that area, but I would never add a STAR to my filed flight plan. If ATC demands it, so be it and wise to be prepared. But I would not purposely request one. It was my understanding that these change (some airports have 10 or 20 of them) and the STAR is assigned by center or approach, based upon their current needs or flow and not something to be found in your flight plan, unless amended by ATC in their issued clearance or changed enroute.

Coming back to the ORD area, I know what approach is going to give me most times (never a STAR), so I file it that way to be courteous and save the controller having to read me an amended clearance. If going to an unfamiliar area, I file the last leg direct and let ATC amend it based upon what they want at that moment; No point trying to guess.

I am just a GA guy; No professional experience. Never been issued a STAR, though have gotten numerous SIDs.

Larry
 
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Mountain Time said:
Looks like I'll be flying down from the Seattle area to the Bay Area in early August. Most likely I'll be coming down via Medford, the Siskiyous, and Red Bluff. Most likely destination will be San Carlos (KSQL), which appears to use the Point Reyes 3 arrival.

I've flown into KCCR several times VFR, but this would be my first trip to the area on an IFR plan. I've had the rating less than a year and so am still doing a lot of learning especially in the practical aspects of flight planning.

And so my question is: as a practical matter, how much detail should I put into a proposed flight plan once I'm approaching the north Bay area? List POPES as a fix and then Point Reyes and the arrival procedure from there? Or should I expect vectors starting up in the vicinity of POPES and just have KSQL be the next point in the flight plan? Or???

I guess what I'm looking for is practical feedback from those who've flown this area IFR, in terms of what to really expect and how to flight plan it so that both ATC and I have the simplest job with the fewest headaches. And if there are any "gotchas" to look out for, I'd sure like to have a heads up.

Thanks for your help -

JHW
Click to expand...
PYE THREE or PYE.V27.HADLY..OSI..KSQL

Which are essentially the same.

Arrivals from the north via this route will be handed off to NCT at either 4000' or 5000', depending on the flow at SFO. This time of year, 99.9% chance SFO will be on the "West Plan", which = 4000' for prop arrivals to KSQL.
 
IFR on the route

I fly that route often. Just be aware that the routing you will likely get takes you over pretty inhospitable terrain in Southern Oregon and the Shasta area. Altitudes are also pretty high. Unless you need to, I much prefer flight following along that route and pick up a clearance down by Redding. I've found that the NorCal controllers are generally very helpful. You can pretty easily take what you are given and then negotiate for what you want
 
What I've learned doing my IFR training near the Bay area was that ZOA can and will change your planned routing to whatever works best for their flow. For example, they rerouted me all the way to MOD on a trip to Monterey just to keep me away from San Jose. Another thing to keep in mind is the LNAV MDA at KSQL of only 900' when ceilings can easily be below that this time of year. I'd also recommend being familiar with the published departure procedures as they'll almost always have you fly those procedures in ZOA/NCT airspace. If the Bay area is all IFR then you'll likely be looking at fields east of the mountains from Napa to Hollister for alternates.

STARs are designed to transition turbine aircraft from Class A airspace to the approach at your destination.
 
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Watsonville dodge

M5fly said:
What I've learned doing my IFR training near the Bay area was that ZOA can and will change your planned routing to whatever works best for their flow. For example, they rerouted me all the way to MOD on a trip to Monterey just to keep me away from San Jose.
on.
Click to expand...

Yes, the standard route from any east bay airport to MRY is east to the central valley, then south then back west, and 90% of the time that’s what you’ll get regardless of what you file. You need to use the ‘Watsonville Dodge’. File [east bay] to Watsonville, you’ll get nearly a direct route. Once south of San Jose call up with some excuse and change your destination to KMRY.
 
BobTurner said:
Yes, the standard route from any east bay airport to MRY is east to the central valley, then south then back west, and 90% of the time that’s what you’ll get regardless of what you file. You need to use the ‘Watsonville Dodge’. File [east bay] to Watsonville, you’ll get nearly a direct route. Once south of San Jose call up with some excuse and change your destination to KMRY.
Click to expand...

I'll definitely put that in the bag of tricks!
 
M5fly said:
I'll definitely put that in the bag of tricks!
Click to expand...
That would work.
But not entirely a new concept,,

Back "in the day", when metering was in effect for SFO, there were a couple of ****** Airline crews that would change their destinations from SFO to OAK, and at the last minute back to SFO. Worked most of the time, until ATC management gave us direction to not allow that to happen. So when they showed up at NCT landing OAK and asked for a destination change, they ended up going to OAK and waiting out their delay times on the ground.
We all thought it was kind of a clever way to "game" the system.
 
Good Stuff!

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone - part of what makes VAF such a great site.

As far as STARs are concerned, my impression from training was that ATC will assign these unless there is some extenuating circumstance or other operational need, and just putting "no STAR" in the flight plan won't actually avoid it - it just means that ATC will read out the fixes and altitudes, etc. in the clearance and you write all that down and end up flying the exact same profile anyway. I also had the impression that if the STAR is just for turbine aircraft or the like, there will be a notation to that effect - and the Point Reyes 3 doesn't have one.

The main thing I don't like about that STAR is it appears to keep you over water for a long ways as you go south from PYE to HADLY, which doesn't thrill me; I fly over a lot of water here in the Puget Sound area but I don't like being too far from land for too long when I'm doing it.

In looking at recent routings from KRBL to KSQL on Garmin Pilot, looks like a Cirrus has been back and forth a few times just filing direct from RBL to AMEBY (an IF on the GPS 30 approach); presumably they got vectored around somewhat before getting there, but that at least makes for a simple flight plan and clearance. And obviously they weren't forced to use the STAR.

On the marine layer/fog issue, I'm used to that up here and I had thought that San Carlos would avoid that being on the east side of the ridge that runs up the peninsula, but maybe not, and the mimina for the GPS 30 approach aren't that great, as a couple of you mentioned.

Looking at other options, my wife suggested somewhere north of Marin (she'll be up there from San Francisco on some days), so KDVO (Gnoss Field) in Novato looks like a pretty good option - can one generally expect better weather up there when the marine layer/fog make the coastal airports a problem? Seems like it should be far enough inland and it would keep me out of the hairier Class B traffic and airspace further south.

One other option is KCCR, I've been in there several times VFR and it also keeps me just outside the Class B, plus I have a friend who lives close by; so that's always available as an alternate.

Anyway, appreciate the insights from everyone and if you have further ideas I'm all ears. One thing I'm really finding in IFR flying is that the single pilot workload really IS (or can be) taxing - its very abstract when you see people say this in a magazine or forum, but it becomes very real when you actually are there in the cockpit having to do it all - and that the better I plan, and the more gradually I expose myself to busier and more complex airspace, the better things seem to go. Hence my questions here :)

John Wiegenstein
 
Mountain Time said:
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone - part of what makes VAF such a great site.

As far as STARs are concerned, my impression from training was that ATC will assign these unless there is some extenuating circumstance or other operational need, and just putting "no STAR" in the flight plan won't actually avoid it - it just means that ATC will read out the fixes and altitudes, etc. in the clearance and you write all that down and end up flying the exact same profile anyway. I also had the impression that if the STAR is just for turbine aircraft or the like, there will be a notation to that effect - and the Point Reyes 3 doesn't have one.

The main thing I don't like about that STAR is it appears to keep you over water for a long ways as you go south from PYE to HADLY, which doesn't thrill me; I fly over a lot of water here in the Puget Sound area but I don't like being too far from land for too long when I'm doing it.

In looking at recent routings from KRBL to KSQL on Garmin Pilot, looks like a Cirrus has been back and forth a few times just filing direct from RBL to AMEBY (an IF on the GPS 30 approach); presumably they got vectored around somewhat before getting there, but that at least makes for a simple flight plan and clearance. And obviously they weren't forced to use the STAR.

On the marine layer/fog issue, I'm used to that up here and I had thought that San Carlos would avoid that being on the east side of the ridge that runs up the peninsula, but maybe not, and the mimina for the GPS 30 approach aren't that great, as a couple of you mentioned.

Looking at other options, my wife suggested somewhere north of Marin (she'll be up there from San Francisco on some days), so KDVO (Gnoss Field) in Novato looks like a pretty good option - can one generally expect better weather up there when the marine layer/fog make the coastal airports a problem? Seems like it should be far enough inland and it would keep me out of the hairier Class B traffic and airspace further south.

One other option is KCCR, I've been in there several times VFR and it also keeps me just outside the Class B, plus I have a friend who lives close by; so that's always available as an alternate.

Anyway, appreciate the insights from everyone and if you have further ideas I'm all ears. One thing I'm really finding in IFR flying is that the single pilot workload really IS (or can be) taxing - its very abstract when you see people say this in a magazine or forum, but it becomes very real when you actually are there in the cockpit having to do it all - and that the better I plan, and the more gradually I expose myself to busier and more complex airspace, the better things seem to go. Hence my questions here :)

John Wiegenstein
Click to expand...
Roger your concern regarding the extended over-water with the HADLY..OSI route.
However keep this in mind: that is an ATC LOA (Letter Of Agreement) routing and facilitates predictability in routes between hand-offs.
Once you are inside NCTs airspace, expect to to be taken off that route. If you require the GPS approach, you will probably still end up over OSI, but vectored well before that. Rarely would a situation occur that would see you overfly HADLY.
If WX permits and you are looking for a visual at SQL, traffic permitting you may not even see OSI.

NCT will usually put you in a position parallel and south of the SFO 28 departure corridor, most likely at 4000’.

Hope this helps
 
Mountain Time said:
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone - part of what makes VAF such a great site.

As far as STARs are concerned, my impression from training was that ATC will assign these unless there is some extenuating circumstance or other operational need, and just putting "no STAR" in the flight plan won't actually avoid it - it just means that ATC will read out the fixes and altitudes, etc. in the clearance and you write all that down and end up flying the exact same profile anyway. I also had the impression that if the STAR is just for turbine aircraft or the like, there will be a notation to that effect - and the Point Reyes 3 doesn't have one.

The main thing I don't like about that STAR is it appears to keep you over water for a long ways as you go south from PYE to HADLY, which doesn't thrill me; I fly over a lot of water here in the Puget Sound area but I don't like being too far from land for too long when I'm doing it.

In looking at recent routings from KRBL to KSQL on Garmin Pilot, looks like a Cirrus has been back and forth a few times just filing direct from RBL to AMEBY (an IF on the GPS 30 approach); presumably they got vectored around somewhat before getting there, but that at least makes for a simple flight plan and clearance. And obviously they weren't forced to use the STAR.

On the marine layer/fog issue, I'm used to that up here and I had thought that San Carlos would avoid that being on the east side of the ridge that runs up the peninsula, but maybe not, and the mimina for the GPS 30 approach aren't that great, as a couple of you mentioned.

Looking at other options, my wife suggested somewhere north of Marin (she'll be up there from San Francisco on some days), so KDVO (Gnoss Field) in Novato looks like a pretty good option - can one generally expect better weather up there when the marine layer/fog make the coastal airports a problem? Seems like it should be far enough inland and it would keep me out of the hairier Class B traffic and airspace further south.

One other option is KCCR, I've been in there several times VFR and it also keeps me just outside the Class B, plus I have a friend who lives close by; so that's always available as an alternate.

Anyway, appreciate the insights from everyone and if you have further ideas I'm all ears. One thing I'm really finding in IFR flying is that the single pilot workload really IS (or can be) taxing - its very abstract when you see people say this in a magazine or forum, but it becomes very real when you actually are there in the cockpit having to do it all - and that the better I plan, and the more gradually I expose myself to busier and more complex airspace, the better things seem to go. Hence my questions here :)

John Wiegenstein
Click to expand...

I believe that if you are issued a star or sid, you can simply accept it. That implies you have a paper or digital copy of it to follow. Atc will only read you the details of it IF you state that you don’t have a copy, likely followed by a grunt and an amend to radar vectors. This happened to me once when ForeFlight hiccuped and i couldn't read the sid at kapa
 
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