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Flight Following and the Luke AFB SATR area

Toobuilder

Well Known Member
I have a question concerning the Luke AFB Special Air Traffic Rules (SATR) area. It is written that you must establish and maintain 2 way communication with Luke Approach, but what if you are already on flight following and are talking to Center or Phoenix Approach before entering the SATR?

Based on the rule?

? 93.177 Operations in the Special Air Traffic Rule Area.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC), no person may operate an aircraft in flight within the Luke Terminal Area designated in ?93.176 unless?


?it appears that contact with center or Phoenix approach (ATC) satisfies the 2 way radio requirement. Also, the last time I went through there, Phoenix approach steered me right through the Luke SATR area, so that seems to confirm it.

Since I plan on making this flight tomorrow, I?d just like to know what is right.

Anybody have the answer?

Thanks
 
If you are already talking with PHX ATC then they'll hand you off to Luke if necessary otherwise you'll stay with PHX ATC. That's my experience anyways.
 
The typical scenario has me inbound from the west talking to ABQ Center, then they hand me off to Phoenix at Buckeye for the ride through the class B into Stellar.
 
It looks like they essentially made the area a Class C, but with time limits.

You didn't quote this bit of the rule -

The Luke Air Force Base, Arizona
Terminal Area is designated during
official daylight hours Monday through
Friday while Luke pilot flight training is
underway, as broadcast on the local
Automatic Terminal Information
Service (ATIS), and other times by
Notice to Airmen (NOTAM), as follows:


<area description follows>

So at weekends it is typically not active and flight following would be provided by PHX Class B approach. If you are already on flight following you probably wouldn't know the difference...:)

If its not active you can just fly through it without speaking to anyone... but FF is better in the busy PHX area.
 
It looks like they essentially made the area a Class C, but with time limits.

You didn't quote this bit of the rule...

Didn't quote it but did read that. In my case, I'm usually blasting through on Friday morning (like tomorrow), so it will be active most of the time I tangle with it.
 
Didn't quote it but did read that. In my case, I'm usually blasting through on Friday morning (like tomorrow), so it will be active most of the time I tangle with it.

Then PHX approach will hand you off to Luke approach if you are on Flight Following.

This was standard procedure well before the Special Rules area - in effect the new rule makes VFR FF compulsory through the newly defined area when it is active... sort of a Class C like I mentioned before...:)
 
But they haven't in the past...

The time spent in this airspace is literally less than a minute (between the "enroute" portion with center, and the handoff to approach (class B)).

In this case, it really is impractical to jump from Center, call Luke, then jump on with PHX APPR within 60 seconds of flight time.
 
But they haven't in the past...

The time spent in this airspace is literally less than a minute (between the "enroute" portion with center, and the handoff to approach (class B)).

In this case, it really is impractical to jump from Center, call Luke, then jump on with PHX APPR within 60 seconds of flight time.

Michael,

ZABQ (Center), PHX TRACON and LUKE may have a letter of agreement that covers certain routes through the SATR. They may just be coordinating via landline, or pinging each other about you...if they've ever advised you to maintain VFR at or above XXX or remain N,S,E or W of such and such, that would indicate they probably do. If you just happened to meet the criterion of the LOA, they might not have to say anything to you.

If its quiet tomorrow on the radio as you approach it, ask 'em...it'd be interesting to know the scoop.

Cheers,
Bob
 
Bob,

They (PHX Appr) have certainly dragged me right through the fat portion of this "active" SATR before, so we'll see how this goes tomorrow. I'll see what I can find oit.
 
I'm too lazy to look up the airspace rules or what facility controls the SATR but I will say the 2 way radio communications should be established with the controlling facility. If that is Luke approach then you should establish comm with them. This is the simplest explanation.

Now, if you are talking to neighboring ATC facilities, merely establishing radio comm with THEM means NOTHING. They may not know exactly where you are and will not take responsibility if you bust the SATR. However, if you are told RADAR CONTACT (identified) then that controller will MORE than likely coordinate on your behalf with the controlling facility of the SATR. As others have mentioned, it may be seemless on your end and you would never know. If you are unsure you could simply ask if you are permitted to fly through the SATR.

Generally, flight following will provide you with traffic advisories/alerts as well as advisories about restricted/special use airspace on a workload permitting basis. In some airspace designations the advisories are mandated regardless of workload.
 
I'm too lazy to look up the airspace rules or what facility controls the SATR but I will say the 2 way radio communications should be established with the controlling facility. If that is Luke approach then you should establish comm with them. This is the simplest explanation.

Now, if you are talking to neighboring ATC facilities, merely establishing radio comm with THEM means NOTHING. They may not know exactly where you are and will not take responsibility if you bust the SATR. However, if you are told RADAR CONTACT (identified) then that controller will MORE than likely coordinate on your behalf with the controlling facility of the SATR. As others have mentioned, it may be seemless on your end and you would never know. If you are unsure you could simply ask if you are permitted to fly through the SATR.

Generally, flight following will provide you with traffic advisories/alerts as well as advisories about restricted/special use airspace on a workload permitting basis. In some airspace designations the advisories are mandated regardless of workload.

THe FAR is pretty specific...

Operations in the Special Air Traffic Rule Area.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC), no person may operate an aircraft in flight within the Luke Terminal Area designated in ? 93.176 unless?

(1) Before operating within the Luke Terminal area, that person establishes radio contact with the Luke RAPCON; and

(2) That person maintains two-way radio communication with the Luke RAPCON or an appropriate ATC facility while within the designated area.



I guess it depends on the VFR FF wording given by PHX approach control. You have to be "authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC)" OR talking directly to Luke RAPCON....

So, I think this means that PHX would have to give you specific permission to enter and be in the Special Rules Area.

For my passages through there I've always talked to Luke... note that the wording is similar to Class C requirements -- "establish radio contact".
 
THe FAR is pretty specific...

Operations in the Special Air Traffic Rule Area.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC), no person may operate an aircraft in flight within the Luke Terminal Area designated in ? 93.176 unless?

(1) Before operating within the Luke Terminal area, that person establishes radio contact with the Luke RAPCON; and

(2) That person maintains two-way radio communication with the Luke RAPCON or an appropriate ATC facility while within the designated area.



I guess it depends on the VFR FF wording given by PHX approach control. You have to be "authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC)" OR talking directly to Luke RAPCON....

So, I think this means that PHX would have to give you specific permission to enter and be in the Special Rules Area.

For my passages through there I've always talked to Luke... note that the wording is similar to Class C requirements -- "establish radio contact".

Will be headed there next weekend (so it'll be inactive, hopefully), but on return later in the week will no doubt need to "establish radio contact".

Am I correct in assuming that this means the same as Class C? That if I call, and they say "NXXXXX standby", that I'm good to go, but "aircraft calling Luke standby" I'm not? What about "RV calling Luke, standby"????
 
You just have to establish 2-way comm with Luke and you are good to go. If they don't answer you, it's not "2-way" yet, so don't poke your nose into the airspace. But I've never had this happen, and I talk to them all the time (my home airport is right next to Luke AFB). They are usually quick with giving you a squawk, and they are always very helpful and patient. Overall a great bunch of young and enthusiastic Air Force controllers. Just be patient with them sometimes too. They do controller training from time to time, and their supervisors appreciate a little slack from pilots when the comm ain't quite perfect. Everybody has to start somewhere...

And I should mention the fun stuff too. I've had a few times--even on weekdays--when returning to Goodyear from the north, Luke APPR has offered me me a straight shot vector right over the top of Luke AFB, right through their pattern. (Obviously, no F-16s are in the pattern at the time.) They do the coordination with Luke TWR, so no freq change. The last time I got this, they said "altitude your discretion" so I went 1,000 AGL over the runways, tower, and a bunch of parked F-16s, and then straight up initial to the overhead at KGYR RWY 21. :)
 
Note about the F-16 traffic:

On more than one occasion when letting down eastbound into Stellar I have had a flight of F-16's cross right in front of me departing Luke southbound. And I don't mean little dots on the horizon... I'm talking close enough to see the pilots looking over at me as they cross my path.

One of the main reasons I'm usually talking to some controlling agency and have all my lights going in this area.
 
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I'm not sure how ALL F-16s are equipped but "ours" have some sort of radar and can see traffic everywhere. I think the 16s sometimes use that radar to buzz the VFR targets on occasion.
 
I think the 16s sometimes use that radar to buzz the VFR targets on occasion.

No, you mean that really hppens? :rolleyes:

Like the time two Indiana Air National Guard F-16s used me for targeting practice one sunny day. They both crossed over me from 90 degrees about 100' above me. I could smell Jet fuel for 10 minutes!
 
Not when you aren't expecting it. It scares the heck out of you. It's dangerous too. If I would have made a sudden control change, I'd be toast ( and so would he).
 
Well if you were in a MOA at the time, it serves you right. :D It used to drive me nuts when we'd have to knock off a fight to avoid the guy squawking 1200 trundling right through the middle of the airspace.

But seriously, I don't know a single fighter pilot who would intentionally buzz a civ aircraft. It would be unsafe, against multiple FARs, and a waste of time and fuel. If you saw F-16s up close, there's a good possibility that they didn't see you. They fly departures and arrivals at 350 kts (yes, below 10,000 ft too) and the wingmen have ATC approval to do rejoins at up to 400 kts. The flight lead "should" be able to monitor traffic with his radar, but the wingman is almost always locked to the lead in a single target track radar mode which is great for rejoins, but degrades awareness of other airplanes. Of course, everybody "should" have their eyes out and heads on a swivel, but it's tricky spotting an RV-sized airplane at 350-400 kts.

Luke has a good MACA (midair collision avoidance) pamphlet written for the general public. I highly recommend downloading it here.
 
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MOA's ignored.

Well if you were in a MOA at the time, it serves you right. :D It used to drive me nuts when we'd have to knock off a fight to avoid the guy squawking 1200 trundling right through the middle of the airspace.

Out west here with so many MOA's I know a lot of pilots who do as you stated and just blow it off and fly right through without checking to see if the MOA is active. Probably not a good habit to get into. Its not that hard to call center and see whats going with the airspace.
 
Luke Traffic

Hope you had an uneventful flight in. I have worked the southern half of AZ as a center controller for 25 years and this is exactly the area I specialize in. The SATR area is embedded inside both Luke and Phoenix tracon airspace. I also had the awesome privilege to ride along on a F16 training flight out of Luke.

Flying VFR you are responsible for complying with the rules of the SATR. Like all IFR flights, we will take care of this responsibility.

Luke is the highest concentration of F16's in the world and training goes on non-stop all day and late into the evening. These men (and women) are very busy and are always working on the next training scenario. They are VERY attentive to low altitude traffic en route to MOA's and restricted airspace but also have a very high work load. They are very professional but it is often very evident that they are very busy and have many things to divide their attention.
I cannot emphasize enough to exercise extreme caution when flying in this area and to make use of flight following whenever possible. We don't see everything but it is one more tool to help keep things safe.
Craig Brenden
 
Well said and very accurate Craig. I really enjoyed taking you guys on orientation flights. Those were full-up missions that really increased understanding of what's going on in a fighter cockpit, as opposed to the much more tame "incentive rides" that were done for visiting politicians and movie stars. I'm glad you got to go along on a hop.
 
Luke has a good MACA (midair collision avoidance) pamphlet written for the general public. I highly recommend downloading it here.

Great info Karl, thanks mucho! :) I'm in south central Texas in the middle of both Navy & Air Force training. There is a Navy bombing range a stone's throw from me. When DRIVING nearby, is very common for me to see F-16s SMOKING low level in the area. It appears they must be using the range. :confused:

When I depart on a x-country, I talk to ATC, GOD & anyone that can help me through the fray. This is not a complaint. God bless them all. Just we all need to be safety conscious in these areas.

This info is so good, I'm going to contact all my local military facilities to see if they have such informative pamphlets. ( Kingsville NAS, Corpus Christi NAS, Randolph AFB, Lackland AFB, Laughlin AFB). It really helps to know what exactly is going on. I don't want to get in front of a xxx Fighter on a bombing run. If you haven't seen these honchos smoking in from the ground; well, you're really missing something!! I've often thought "500 knots my @$$, they're just shy of supersonic!" ...thanks again Karl!

Happy & safe flying to all,
 
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Well if you were in a MOA at the time, it serves you right. :D It used to drive me nuts when we'd have to knock off a fight to avoid the guy squawking 1200 trundling right through the middle of the airspace.

I don't want to steal the thread, but just to close up my comments, NO, I was not in a MOA. There's lot's of open space in the Midwest. I was VFR at less than 4,000 ft. There was a Military Training Route close by so they had a reason to be in the area.

But seriously, I don't know a single fighter pilot who would intentionally buzz a civ aircraft. It would be unsafe, against multiple FARs, and a waste of time and fuel. If you saw F-16s up close, there's a good possibility that they didn't see you.

That's a scary thought. I'm pretty sure they buzzed me. They were way too close and we were not very high. For them to intercept me the way they did, it might have been coincidence but I doubt it.
 
Luke Traffic

Karl,
Be sure to give me a shout if you are flying in Albuquerque Center airspace!
Ask for 'Chicken Killer' - they will know who it is!

Craig Brenden
RV6A builder and former flyer
Instrument, Commercial
A&P Mechanic
ATC specialist
 
That's a scary thought. I'm pretty sure they buzzed me. They were way too close and we were not very high. For them to intercept me the way they did, it might have been coincidence but I doubt it.

I fully appreciate you being frightened by the event Randy. That is just too close. They are scary tough airframes!!
 
...But seriously, I don't know a single fighter pilot who would intentionally buzz a civ aircraft. It would be unsafe, against multiple FARs, and a waste of time and fuel...

There was a situation not too long ago where not a single fighter pilot, but two "engaged" a regional jet full of passengers. There used to be an audio clip of the exchange between the RJ pilot and ATC on the Web somewhere. It was quite the protracted engagement, not a simple "buzz job". The RJ pilots were quite concerned, and I'm pretty sure two F-16 pilots lost their wings over the incident.
 
Deal Fair said:
I'm going to contact all my local military facilities to see if they have such informative pamphlets. ( Kingsville NAS, Corpus Christi NAS, Randolph AFB, Lackland AFB, Laughlin AFB). It really helps to know what exactly is going on.

I can't speak for the Navy, but all Air Force flying wings produce a MACA pamphlet. Call the Flight Safety Office and ask for it. Each is specific to the base, its airspace, and particular aircraft. I was a flight safety officer for several years and had a hand in writing a few of these documents. I guarantee you that the people you speak with will be enthusiastic about helping you.
 
I can't speak for the Navy, but all Air Force flying wings produce a MACA pamphlet. Call the Flight Safety Office and ask for it. Each is specific to the base, its airspace, and particular aircraft. I was a flight safety officer for several years and had a hand in writing a few of these documents. I guarantee you that the people you speak with will be enthusiastic about helping you.

Super -will do & appreciate it!!
 
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