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Recommended aircraft for primary flight training...

tentoes

Member
Hi all: I am an older dude now but I never completed the requisite training to complete my private pilot's license. Way back in 1978 I got my 3rd Classs Medical Certificate (which did double duty as a Student Pilot's License when properly signed by an over-seeing CFI or CFII) and also passed my FAA written exam for Private Pilot certification, but I did not finish all of the requisite flight hours, cross-country flight, etc. and of course never took my check-ride. So here I am again, this time I'm sure I will finish it but I have a question for all of you:
Most of my early flight training was in Cessnas: 150's, 152's, 172's; I actually solo'ed in a C-152. I accrued somewhere around 20 hours (dual and solo) time when I began working at the local FBO which offered Pipers. There I began flying Warriors and Archers and an occasional Tomahawk flight and I became a fan of Pipers instead of Cessnas. Just speaking for myself, what I like about Pipers are: 1) I like the low wing WAY better than the high-winged Cessnas mostly because I can see in the direction I am turning into; 2)I really like the manual flaps that you can crank down/up in an instant instead of the electric ones on the Cessnas and 3) Pipers to me just "feel" more solid....like I said, just my opinion.....

SO to my question: At my age (almost 60), I intend to get my Private, then an Instrument Rating. I hope to one day own and fly for recreation an RV-8 as my own airplane (I can dream). Should I seek out training in a taildragger to better prepare myself for an RV-8, or should I simply take the normal regimen of Piper (Warrior) primary flight training, then conversion training to the RV-8? Or should I take more primary training in another taildragger like a Super Cub? or just get tail-dragger rating after getting my private? I feel I am deficient in proper turn coordination that flying a taildragger will help me with....

Anyway I appreciate your honest opinions and constructive criticism!
 
I'll throw in my 0.02 here. I've instructed in all of the airplanes you listed, and I can tell you that the aircraft make/model really doesn't make much difference with respect to your training success. My recommendation would be to train in the airplane you're most likely to have available to rent or borrow after you get your ratings. Cost to rent / operate should be a factor as well.

If it's difficult to get regular access to a taildragger airplane and instructor, then I wouldn't worry about it. The taildragger checkout can be accomplished before you start flying your RV-8.

Good luck in your training and purchase of an RV-8!
 
I learned a lot about taildraggers from flying a Cessna 140. I bought one, put 300 hrs on it in 3 years and sold it for what I originally paid.

if you had any excessive negative rate of descent, that spring gear would send you back flying. same thing as on the RV-4 that I purchased right afterwards. similar behavior to the RV-8, although that has a few different handling characteristics.

good luck to you!
 
Any of the planes you mention would work and IMHO it's not the most important factor, but I would think that renting a tail dragger for primary training would be difficult to find. More important is what is available in your area. You don't need speed. I would train in the least expensive rental that fits me. A C150 is small with limited useful load along with a Piper Cherokee, but they makes a great trainers.

Most important, though, is the instructor. You need to find someone you can work with and one that fits your personality and way of learning. I would try to find an instructor that wants to instruct and not someone that is trying to build time for that airlines. You want to build a long term relationship with your instructor.

You may want to consider, at some point in your training (maybe 1/2 way through primary) buying a plane. A RV12 would be a great platform, if you can afford it and it is even somewhat close to your mission. Fly, train, Fly while you build and then sell it after your RV is compete.
 
Just learn to fly in whatever airplane is available and cost efficient. You can transition later.
 
I've got a bunch of hours instructing in both Pipers and Cessnas, but very little tailwheel time, so take this for what it's worth.

Personally, a C172 is my favorite training airplane, but realistically, they all have pros and cons.

My advise would be to just fly whats convenient enough with respect to location, availability and finances that you give yourself the best chance of completing your training.

If you have a conventional gear training airplane available to you, then by all means, go for it, but the tailwheel thing isn't that difficult to transition into later as long as you don't get in the bad habit of letting the natural good runway manners of a trike make you lazy by letting it become a crutch to save you from sloppy landings.

I did my tailwheel signoff in a C170 a couple of years ago and it took about 5 hours to become comfortable in it. As far as coordination, I think it's a mistake to assume that a tailwheel will somehow force you to be more coordinated in flight. A good instructor should make sure that you have good coordination skills no matter what you're flying.

FYI- At this point, I've only got about 25 hours of tailwheel time, but elected to build an RV7. The insurance is going to be about $1,000 more per year until I get 100 hours of tailwheel time.
 
RV Ownership/training/older dudes

I'm an older dude now like you, soloed in Cherokee back in 1976 and didn't get my PPL til the early 80's..in a Cessna. Built an RV-4 (loooong, slooow build) during which time I bought an old beat-up Taylorcraft and logged 300 hrs of tailwheel time. Now flying the RV-4 for 11 years. At old dude status, if you WANT an RV at some point in the future, I would dig into the local RV community, find someone who will take you on a couple sorties to solidify your wants/needs, and if the grin is there, look for a flying RV to buy and do your training in it. There has been more than one new PPL pilot minted in our area in their own RV..many CFI's are getting into the RV movement these days. Once you switch from Spam can to an RV, its hard to go back!
 
Yup

Just learn to fly in whatever airplane is available and cost efficient. You can transition later.

+1. Note also that it may be difficult to find a tailwheel aircraft and/or instructor for primary training. Probably more expensive too.
 
Im finishing up my training in the 9A I built. I find I am able to make much better landings in it than the 172 I was flying. I think it is that the visibility is so much better. I was worried about the infamous nose wheel but it hasnt been an issue. Considering the cost of rentals, it may be best to purchase a plane and sell it later. If you could swing a 12, that would probably be my firs choice but a 150 or 172 would sure be cheaper. Remember the cost of a plane is not the total cost - it is the difference between what you can buy it for and what you can sell it for. A training plane will always be in demand so they are not a bad investment.

Best of luck on your training.
 
Don,
I am a DPE (examiner) and my most common test is private pilot. While I respect, and you should consider the opinions of CFIs, I can provide a view from the testing seat.
I recommend you select the simplest, most economical airplane that matches up with an instructor of your choice. The examiner is required to check that you know how to operate all the systems installed in the airplane, without exception, so on the extreme end of undesirability you would find an airplane equipped with G1000/GFC700 type instruments. Ideally, you want a slow airplane equipped with no more than a sixpack, no autopilot, and not even a GPS if such an airplane still exists.
This last item, the GPS, is of NO help to you on a PP test since it will not be used for the navigation portion (pilotage and dead reckoning), and is of marginal use for accomplishing the lost procedures task successfully. A panel-mounted GPS and especially an Ipad with Foreflight act as a crutch that the DPE will likely kick out from under you when you board the plane for your flight portion. You just don't need that kind of additional stress.
I would also suggest you select a nosedragger and deal with a tailwheel endorsement when the need arises. Feel free to PM me if you have further questions.
Good luck.
 
This forum is a great place for RV/E-AB questions but it’s unlikely that anyone here is going to know squat about what’s going on in your area. You need a local “guru” to guide you. Drive out to the airports close to you. Go into the FBO. Look at what’s available to you for flight training at each one…look at cost, equipment, syllabus, etc. Maybe interview some flight instructors to see if you can find one that’s copacetic. Don’t get hung up on taildraggers…if you actually decide you want to own a taildragger, you can learn later…even while you’re a student. Go look at the bulletin board at your FBO and see about the local flying club meetings. If there’s an EAA chapter, so much the better, or you can go here and find your nearest EAA chapter. Go to the meeting(s), introduce yourself and start asking advice. In 50 years, I’ve yet to see a flying club that wouldn’t fall all over themselves to help you achieve your goal. But there are a lot of steps between here and sitting in your own RV-8 and firing it up for the first time.

It’s fun to sit and puzzle out the steps to your aviation future and flying that RV-8…but you’re going to have to learn to fly first and I’d start there. The plane you fly in training may have nothing to do with the plane you ultimately buy. You’ll want to learn the landscape before you start shopping airplanes, and once you have (re-)immersed yourself in aviation, your path will become increasingly clear.
 
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Well you are on the right track.
#1 You are asking the right forum
#2 you are smart enough to ask question.
#3 you're in good hands here.
Free advice is sometimes good stuff
Art
 
If you're flying around 100 hours per year, the cost of operation of your own airplane is similar to that of a rental of the same power and complexity. And since you can often sell a used airplane for what you bought it for, that puts the training cost down quite a bit.

Just a suggestion... buy something, learn to fly in it, fly around while looking for an RV, and then do whatever additional training is needed for the RV. But get a hangar first.

Dave
 
...but

...if you are looking to BUY versus rent for you license, do not forget to include ALL of the ownership costs in you research. When I bought my first 172, it was a real eye opener once all the costs were figured in.

Some examples:

Insurance
Hangar rental
State registration
Fed registration
Annual inspections

some folks also include:

Avionics reserve
Engine reserve

and this is before the hourly cost of actually flying the aircraft, ie fuel, oil, other consumables.

I wouldn't try and dissuade you from buying your own plane; it is a great feeling. Just go in with ALL the information, before you buy...
 
I purchased a C-152 when I first started my flight training. Economical to own and operate and it was always available when I needed it for flight instruction. I owned it for 5 years before I finished my RV-10 and sold it for more than I paid for it. I loved that plane and have no regrets on that decision to buy instead of renting.
 
I bought a Cessna 140 a couple years back and will keep it forever if I can. It will make a GREAT trainer for my kids. Cost to operate is very low and I won’t have to worry about scheduling someone else’s plane. It’s only worth it if you can fly often. Otherwise it’s cheaper to rent for training. I echo another person’s post - consider all the costs up front.

I would highly recommend training in the plane that will allow you to fly often and be very comfortable for your exam. TW instructors and examiners are hard to find where I live so consider that. By the time my kids are training we may have to transition them to a 152/172 just to get an examiner.

I will also add that learning in a TW ingrains habits and knowledge that sometimes take a lot of hours to get later. I think a lot of the “everybody will eventually ground loop” crowd probably trained in a tricycle. There are certain core skills that are non negotiable in a TW and if you start with those they tend to stick. There’s a reason they called the Cessna tricycles “landomatic” - you didn’t need the same level on concentration for the same period of time.
 
Well..... If you really want to get proficient with using your feet, get some glider training. There are glider ops at 7S5 and you will be better prepared if you ever have an engine failure. I believe you can also rent a tailwheel around the greater Portland area too.

Consider buying a plane in a partnership or flying club to defer/mitigate some of the cost.

Good Luck!

-Marc
 
All of the advice here has been great, so i'll only agree with it, and then add one thing I didn't see mentioned: When you go to insure an RV-8, the more tailwheel time you have under your belt the cheaper it will be. You'll need both tailwheel time (in general) and a checkout on the RV of choice. If you have no tailwheel time, you'll have to get a certain number of hours either before they'll give you hull insurance, or before they'll let you fly it as PIC. If you have tailwheel time but no RV time, they may let you do the checkout in your own plane. and it'll only be a few hours.
 
I agree with Rob. Tailwheel time has really helped me when I need to get named on someone's insurance policy. I once gave a Tailwheel endorsement to a guy in a Luscombe. Initially his insurance company said that the instructor needed to have an insane amount of hours in model/type (something like 20 hours) before I could even give instruction. When I called them an explained my tailwheel experience they said "ok do an hour of solo" in the airplane and then you can instruct. I had zero hours in a Luscombe before.

In addition, I think it gives you some skills that will help you in all types of aircraft.
Keith
 
Opinion

Lots of opinions, especially on the TW thing.

"...I will also add that learning in a TW ingrains habits and knowledge that sometimes take a lot of hours to get later. I think a lot of the “everybody will eventually ground loop” crowd probably trained in a tricycle. There are certain core skills that are non negotiable in a TW and if you start with those they tend to stick..."

It would seem that you are implying that learning in a TW prevents you from ground loops...that makes me laugh...

While I heartily agree that the TW experience is very beneficial, it still comes down to "those that have and those that will"...


To the OP: Another consideration is what aircraft you will take your test in. If you decide to go the TW route, make sure that you can find an examiner that will conduct the test in your choice of aircraft. As has been previously stated, the examiner will test you based on the aircraft used for the test; if you do all your training in a TW aircraft and then have to test in a 172, well, you get the picture.
 
Thanks all!....

I really appreciate what sounds like truly heart-felt opinions about the subject! I actually live in McMinnville Oregon, just about thirty minutes from Aurora airport, which happens to be the home of Van's! I haven't even visited them yet but plan to change that very soon.

Thanks again everyone!
 
"...I will also add that learning in a TW ingrains habits and knowledge that sometimes take a lot of hours to get later. I think a lot of the “everybody will eventually ground loop” crowd probably trained in a tricycle. There are certain core skills that are non negotiable in a TW and if you start with those they tend to stick..."

It would seem that you are implying that learning in a TW prevents you from ground loops...that makes me laugh...

Why would that make you laugh? Learning in a TW absolutely teaches you to fly coordinated, completely understand what the wind is doing, how to have a stable approach and not to screw with crappy approaches, how high you are over the runway, what attitude you are at when you touch, what your sink rate is, etc....

All of these skills learned up front absolutely makes a difference in regards to preventing you from a ground loop. I learned to fly in AK and know at least 2 dozen people with tailwheel airplanes personally and our airport had at least 100 tailwheels, and I can't think of a single instance of a ground loop in my circle.

Anyway, to the OP:

If you want to fly tailwheel airplanes then the game is different. Not because they are hard or scary or whatever, but because they require more skill and many people that only fly 50 hours a year simply don't have the ability to fly them well.

This means that instruction and insurance and rentals are very expensive if not impossible depending on where you are.

So, if you want to fly tailwheel airplanes you need to have access to one, and you need to fly it a bunch, which means owning one. Notice most of the tailwheel pilots that replied mentioned that they bought a Cessna 140 or something?

I did the same, I bought a 170A and have 400 hours on it now. It's been as far west as Platinum AK on the Bering Sea and as far east as KOSH. It's slow, but it's also capable of packing my wife, my tent, my inflatable mattress, and a cooler full of beer in and out of 1000ft strips next to the lake.

I expect my Bearhawk will fly this fall and I have no hesitation to climb into 260HP 1500lb tailwheel on 31's because I'm completely ready to handle whatever it throws at me.

If you can't swing owning a tailwheel, then your only other choice is to rent a nose dragger until you have your RV-8 done, but then you might have some insurance and training problems you have to get through before you can use it.
 
I really appreciate what sounds like truly heart-felt opinions about the subject! I actually live in McMinnville Oregon, just about thirty minutes from Aurora airport, which happens to be the home of Van's! I haven't even visited them yet but plan to change that very soon.

Thanks again everyone!

Don't they rent tailwheel airplanes out of Twin Oaks?
 
Don,
I am a DPE (examiner) and my most common test is private pilot. While I respect, and you should consider the opinions of CFIs, I can provide a view from the testing seat.
I recommend you select the simplest, most economical airplane that matches up with an instructor of your choice. The examiner is required to check that you know how to operate all the systems installed in the airplane, without exception, so on the extreme end of undesirability you would find an airplane equipped with G1000/GFC700 type instruments. Ideally, you want a slow airplane equipped with no more than a sixpack, no autopilot, and not even a GPS if such an airplane still exists.
This last item, the GPS, is of NO help to you on a PP test since it will not be used for the navigation portion (pilotage and dead reckoning), and is of marginal use for accomplishing the lost procedures task successfully. A panel-mounted GPS and especially an Ipad with Foreflight act as a crutch that the DPE will likely kick out from under you when you board the plane for your flight portion. You just don't need that kind of additional stress.
I would also suggest you select a nosedragger and deal with a tailwheel endorsement when the need arises. Feel free to PM me if you have further questions.
Good luck.


This!! Than fly tailwheel after your Private is complete. I actively teach and trying to get your private in a tailwheel is double but not efficient in time or money / headache with finding an instructor and insurance. Rent a 150 or whatever than move on with your new ticket.
 
....There’s a reason they called the Cessna tricycles “landomatic” - you didn’t need the same level on concentration for the same period of time....

The reason they call Cessnas "Landomatic" is because Cessna aggressively marketed that term in the 1950's after developing a proprietary shotpeening process that varied the "springiness" of a spring steel gear along it's length, which causes the varied response you get depending on how hard you smacked it into the ground. i.e. it dampens landing impact but doesn't bounce you back up into the air unless you really botch it.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program :)
 
So...

"...fly coordinated, completely understand what the wind is doing, how to have a stable approach and not to screw with crappy approaches, how high you are over the runway, what attitude you are at when you touch, what your sink rate is, etc..."

Uh, ALL of those things apply to ANY airplane, not just TW. If you aren't learning those things, then maybe you ought to look for a new instructor.

"...All of these skills learned up front absolutely makes a difference in regards to preventing you from a ground loop..."

Reducing the odds, not prevent...and those skills should be learned up front regardless of aircraft type.

"...I learned to fly in AK..."

Great! Love AK. I learned in the Midwest. Learning properly doesn't depend on location...

"...and know at least 2 dozen people with tailwheel airplanes personally and our airport had at least 100 tailwheels, and I can't think of a single instance of a ground loop in my circle..."

So, that would put you in the "Those that will" category...:D

Listen, I'm won't argue that the TW experience is great but with regard to the OP, it may add layers of cost and inconvenience that he may not want to deal with until AFTER he gets his license.

I will, however, argue that the skills you listed are supposed to be learned in any aircraft type, and are not specific to TW aircraft only. Training in a TW aircraft and assuming you are better than the guy trained in a NW aircraft is, well, pretty arrogant...especially in an aviation group such as this.
 
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