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Newbie questions

schone

Member
Hello All,

I've recently heard about the RV airplanes from a person who built his own RV-7A and ever since I got home to research it, I've been hooked.

Between my wife and I we are already planning and dreaming of one day having an RV-10 of our own.

With all the research done I have a few newbie questions that I hoped some of you guys (and gals) could help us with:

1) We're both light weight (think 130lbs in the front times 2) and we've been playing around with the W&B numbers of various RV-10s posted on this forum and are trying to come up with what are the ideal numbers if you wanted to fly most missions weight light weights in the front but full of equipment (or two heavy weight people) in the back? Is lighter overall better? is a heavier nose better? What configuration lets you utilize the plane to its full payload and range capability?

2) As far as taking the first steps in putting together a cost plan. What's the best way to go about it? Do you just make a list of mods you'd want and add it the basic costs already mentioned by others? Are any of these costs a realistic figure or does it all go out the window when you start building?

Thanks in advance and also thanks for the wealth of information all of you have put together in this forum and in the different builder logs! So much to read so much to learn.
 
Welcome

Ha. I beat Mike!!

From a cost perspective, you can get close but it really goes out the window.. It's like trying to do a house project and say you'll go to Home Depot once...

Since I'm not quite yet flying, I'll let others answer the WB questions.
Enjoy
 
Daniel -

Where in NY are you located? I'm across the river in Bergen County, NJ and have an RV10 under construction.

As far as costs go, I think Van's website is probably accurate.

Here is a good spreadsheet that a fellow RV10 builder put together that is really slick. I think it lines up with the info on Van's site. In a nutshell, if you're building a 10, I'd plan on $150k (and then some).

http://n42bu.com/RV10-CostPlanner.xlsx

charlie
 
I may have to respectfully disagree with Charlie on this one. Van's cost estimator us an absolute best case scenario unless they've changed things drastically in the last couple of years. I would say that number is only doable if you are very careful not to do ANY mods and go very basic on panel and interior and do your own paint. I think most people probably end up around $200,000 or more on a nice -10.
 
I think that questions regarding cost are difficult to answer because there are so many choices, and the great thing about experimental aircraft is that we get to make them the way we want, as reflections of our own personality. I appreciate the honesty and elegance of simple things, and I spent much, much less than the numbers being thrown around here. Now, I understand that most of you consider me to be a heathen for not having a full leather interior, three blade prop, and carbon fiber cupholder, but such things have no appeal to me. Simply copying someone elses choices is the worst way to make decisions, in building airplanes as in elsewhere in life. Decide what your priorities are. Performance and functionality are my priorities, and my airplane has done well on those fronts. I suggest taking a ride in different airplanes, and figuring out what you like. Let me know if you are in Western PA, I would be happy to show you 4JC.

784JC.jpg


DSC_8899.JPG
 
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Talk to Vlad, he started his RV-9A in his NYC apartment. I believe he keeps it down at Princeton (39N).

Being in NYC, your biggest issue is where are you going to build it? If you have to do a two hour commute to work 30 minutes, to do two hours back to the City, you will never finish.

Talk to someone like Jay Pratt at RV Central or Jesse, who has already replied to this thread. They won't do the work for you but they have all the tools, space, and knowledge to assist you. (Because of our regs, you cannot hire someone to build it for you but buying a completed one is always an option.)
 
My goal is $100k +/- $10k. I am still significantly under the $100K mark and have everything but the prop and avionics. Those two items should put me at $100K.

I bought the kit from another builder, with the finish kit directly from Vans.
I am budgeting for a dual screen glass panel, full IFR system.

I do have "pleather" seats. But I bought the material, made the patterns and learned to sew. They look good.
I do have some interior. But I bought the foam, made the forms and laid up the fiberglass.
I found a smoking hot deal on 8 aluminum eyeball vents @ $5 a piece.
I have a used engine with 125 hours since rebuild. (1st rebuild)

Deviating from plans will eat both time and budget. Think before you do.

So, (not done yet) it can be done for less than $200k. But you might have to learn a few new talents and make a lot of your own interior. You will need to recognize a great deal and jump on it. You will need to say "no". And you will need to learn to keep the shipping costs down. Those can add some significant cost. :)
 
I feel like if you are dedicating the time and effort for building an airplane, not to mention the financial resources, why not spend a little more to have a fully finished product at the end? If -10 builds are generally costing between $150k-$195k, is $8k-$9k worth it to have a finished, automotive style interior vs. a primarily stripped down and bare aluminum interior? That is the question that ultimatly comes down to each builder. To each his own and that is the beauty of this love we share, called 'Experimantal Aircraft'!! :)
 
I feel like if you are dedicating the time and effort for building an airplane, not to mention the financial resources, why not spend a little more to have a fully finished product at the end? If -10 builds are generally costing between $150k-$195k, is $8k-$9k worth it to have a finished, automotive style interior vs. a primarily stripped down and bare aluminum interior? That is the question that ultimatly comes down to each builder. To each his own and that is the beauty of this love we share, called 'Experimantal Aircraft'!! :)

You can always add to your airplane to change its level of "completion". I've been doing that for 15 years. ;-)

Plenty of people defer final paint, just as you can defer some interior "upgrades", panel work, and other items. Sure, you'll probably pay a penalty in time if you're upgrading a complete, flying aircraft, as opposed to installing the items in the fuselage while it is sitting in your workshop, but if finances are driving the project, you have to respect that constraint. A bare-bones, flying aircraft is preferable (IMO) to an unfinished project or one you can't finish for years due to financial constraints.
 
There are a lot of ways to end up with high end RV-10 and not break the bank. My plane came in at $153K including sales tax. Details:
- New IO-540 and Hartzell BA prop from Vans (received both the buy together discount and sale price). I got these early when the sale opportunity presented itself. These also help to ease the last year pain from panel and paint expenses.
- Slow build
- Did my own panel (dual flat screens, ADS-B, GTN-650 and such)
- Did my own interior other than DJ at Cleaveland Tool doing the seats - and a great job she did!
- Did my own paint (this turn out to be a lot harder than my RV-8A).
- A few $K went to mods (different cowl, different wheel pants, door latches and such)

Prices have gone up but if you avoid the "just buy it" urge for $60K panels, Lexus interiors and such you can do very well.

On the W&B question, don't worry about it. If you build the plane close to how Van's tells you there will not be an issue.

Carl
 
Daniel -

Where in NY are you located? I'm across the river in Bergen County, NJ and have an RV10 under construction.

As far as costs go, I think Van's website is probably accurate.

Here is a good spreadsheet that a fellow RV10 builder put together that is really slick. I think it lines up with the info on Van's site. In a nutshell, if you're building a 10, I'd plan on $150k (and then some).

http://n42bu.com/RV10-CostPlanner.xlsx

charlie

charlie: I live in Williamsburg so probably not too far from you. Where in Bergen County are you located at?


To everybody else, thank you so much for your replies! - Not sure I'm gonna start this project in NYC, probably gonna move first to a more builder friendly setting. I am curious tho how did Vlad manage to start this in an NYC apartment?!?! And where did he end up building the rest of it? I'd love to hear more details about that.

I'll continue looking at this thread for more great perspectives. Thanks again for all the info!!
 
I think that questions regarding cost are difficult to answer because there are so many choices, and the great thing about experimental aircraft is that we get to make them the way we want, as reflections of our own personality. I appreciate the honesty and elegance of simple things, and I spent much, much less than the numbers being thrown around here. Now, I understand that most of you consider me to be a heathen for not having a full leather interior, three blade prop, and carbon fiber cupholder, but such things have no appeal to me. Simply copying someone elses choices is the worst way to make decisions, in building airplanes as in elsewhere in life. Decide what your priorities are. Performance and functionality are my priorities, and my airplane has done well on those fronts. I suggest taking a ride in different airplanes, and figuring out what you like. Let me know if you are in Western PA, I would be happy to show you 4JC.

I can vouch for Andy's wonderful -10 thanks to an hour ride in it last summer. Now I want one too!
 
I feel like if you are dedicating the time and effort for building an airplane, not to mention the financial resources, why not spend a little more to have a fully finished product at the end? If -10 builds are generally costing between $150k-$195k, is $8k-$9k worth it to have a finished, automotive style interior vs. a primarily stripped down and bare aluminum interior? That is the question that ultimatly comes down to each builder. To each his own and that is the beauty of this love we share, called 'Experimantal Aircraft'!! :)

I think Jesse is a little high, I think $150k-$200k is realistic. I had about 1/2 of Aerosports products, and feel I have an Automotive type finish. Did do my own paint, full IFR glass, vans new engine/prop, and came in about 175k. No AC but don't see the need for it.
 
I think that questions regarding cost are difficult to answer because there are so many choices, and the great thing about experimental aircraft is that we get to make them the way we want, as reflections of our own personality. I appreciate the honesty and elegance of simple things, and I spent much, much less than the numbers being thrown around here. Now, I understand that most of you consider me to be a heathen for not having a full leather interior, three blade prop, and carbon fiber cupholder, but such things have no appeal to me. Simply copying someone elses choices is the worst way to make decisions, in building airplanes as in elsewhere in life. Decide what your priorities are. Performance and functionality are my priorities, and my airplane has done well on those fronts. I suggest taking a ride in different airplanes, and figuring out what you like. Let me know if you are in Western PA, I would be happy to show you 4JC.

784JC.jpg


DSC_8899.JPG

Andy lovely pictures! looks like a cool airplane and your boy seems like its his natural habitat :)

Where in Western PA are you at? So I could make a mental note if I'm in the area
 
I'm in Clarion, and the airport is less than a mile off I-80. If you ( or anyone else interested) are driving across the state and the weather is decent, let me know.

Ray, thanks, I'm looking forward to a ride in your -7!
 
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Daniel welcome to the obsession. Indeed I started my build in a small NYC studio. Built the tail there then rented a one car garage in Jersey City to finish the rest. Looking back I don't even know how I did it. It was just right time I guess. I had 1.5 jobs no family and no bills. No money either but a cheap place to live. Uncle Sam was processing my papers for years and years before accepting to the family. Plenty of waiting time.

I ran the calculator, visited Airventure and decided I can swing it. So 5 years and 73K later I have a basic no-mods-all-steam two seater to enjoy. Carb, wood prop and no paint. Passes 5 more years and there is no spot on CONUS map I haven't visited or flown over. Motor has passed the recommended TBO but still pulling strong I baby it.

I would strongly suggest looking into purchasing a well built two seater any model. It will keep its resale value and give you years of enjoyment. Drop me a line when you are home. Come on the roof and wave I'll ask LGA for lower over East River Exclusion. Or come to Solberg N51 earlier on a weekend before I fly away. :D



 
Vlad that's some inspiration! If we're down in Jersey i'll try to find the legendary 666BK :p

Love the pictures you've posted of the Islands in another thread!
 
Daniel,
Like others have pointed out, as for cost, it varies A LOT... You CAN do it for $100k,you also CAN easily get up to $300k if you want to go nuts...
Personally, I wanted to find a happy medium. There were items that were important to me and items I knew I could live without. I wanted it ultimately to have decent resale value should I ever get in a pinch and need to sell it.
One key, is to look for deals. Take advantage of things like show specials from Sun n fun and Oshkosh. They aren't huge,but $500 here, $1000 there, it adds up. Also, looking for someone unloading a partial kit is a huge way to save.
Between the various started kits I scored, in the end, I had my complete airframe, in hand for $14k less that it would have cost me straight from Van's. Plus I saved about 2 years worth of work. In my case, I got really lucky. As much as I like the build process, my goal was to get into a flying plane as soon as possible. I'll probably do another one(don't tell my wife that!)

Even if your not ready to start yet, consider what Vlad did, score yourself a storage unit, or one care garage, and if you find a kit or parts at a great deal, jump on it and store them until your ready. Derek, who brought my first Emp Kit, got a great deal, so he grabbed it, even though he wasn't quite ready to start
 
Daniel,
Like others have pointed out, as for cost, it varies A LOT... You CAN do it for $100k,you also CAN easily get up to $300k if you want to go nuts...
Personally, I wanted to find a happy medium. There were items that were important to me and items I knew I could live without. I wanted it ultimately to have decent resale value should I ever get in a pinch and need to sell it.
One key, is to look for deals. Take advantage of things like show specials from Sun n fun and Oshkosh. They aren't huge,but $500 here, $1000 there, it adds up. Also, looking for someone unloading a partial kit is a huge way to save.
Between the various started kits I scored, in the end, I had my complete airframe, in hand for $14k less that it would have cost me straight from Van's. Plus I saved about 2 years worth of work. In my case, I got really lucky. As much as I like the build process, my goal was to get into a flying plane as soon as possible. I'll probably do another one(don't tell my wife that!)

Even if your not ready to start yet, consider what Vlad did, score yourself a storage unit, or one care garage, and if you find a kit or parts at a great deal, jump on it and store them until your ready. Derek, who brought my first Emp Kit, got a great deal, so he grabbed it, even though he wasn't quite ready to start

Thanks for the tips John! Where does one kits people have started and abandoned and want to sell?
 
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