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New kit builders heads up

Weefle

Well Known Member
So I’m relatively new to building an RV 10. I’m almost through the empanage. I have the QB wings on order and a slow build fuselage showing up one of these days.

So here’s the heads up. I go to order the finishing kit thinking that’s the end of the 4 kits. Not so....hidden in the catalog on the Vans web page is what’s called the firewall forward kit. So if you think you can build an RV with the 4 kits as laid out on the order forms ...think again. You’ll still have to fork out another at least 7k for the FWF kit.

Seems to me they could be more open with potential customers so we would have the full cost of the build upfront.

Ok that’s my rant for the day.

Keith
 
They're plenty open about it. The FWF kit they offer is not required to finish your aircraft. It is a package they put together to better serve their customers over the customer sourcing all these parts individually. You and every other builder will be paying for these parts in the packaged kit offered or if separate. Oh but wait there's more. Don't forget the interior, instruments and avionics.

So I’m relatively new to building an RV 10. I’m almost through the empanage. I have the QB wings on order and a slow build fuselage showing up one of these days.

So here’s the heads up. I go to order the finishing kit thinking that’s the end of the 4 kits. Not so....hidden in the catalog on the Vans web page is what’s called the firewall forward kit. So if you think you can build an RV with the 4 kits as laid out on the order forms ...think again. You’ll still have to fork out another at least 7k for the FWF kit.

Seems to me they could be more open with potential customers so we would have the full cost of the build upfront.

Ok that’s my rant for the day.

Keith
 
FWF

Many builders skip FWF but you are correct. You still need all the stuff. Prop governor, alternator, hoses, oil cooler. I eliminated the expensive items in favor of group buys along the way. Saved a bunch.
 
If you think the purchase of the FWF kit will be your final big purchase, good luck with that.
 
If you think the purchase of the FWF kit will be your final big purchase, good luck with that.

That wasn’t my point...I know there’s an engine, avionics, etc. I guess I wasn’t clear enough about the way Vans leaves out the FWF kit and you kind of find out by chance.
 
Keith,

In my opinion Van's isn't being disingenuous at all. When the program originally started, two prototypes were built around two different engines, the Lyc 540 and a continental 210hp. They would have considerably different finishing kits.
Both engines had impressive numbers but the early buyers wanted the LYC (there's no replacement for displacement). After the market spoke Lyc, the Continental option was terminated. Also in the early years alternative engines for the 10 were the rage. There was a Subaru option and a couple of V8 options, all FWF.
There was also talk of a diesel and a turboprop. Most of those options crumbled away simply because the IO-540 was such a perfect option for the 10. Van's is simply giving buyers more options and flexibility even though they could probably make more money forcing their customers to buy parts of standardized kits that they don't want.
Van's customizes your kit purchases so you only buy what you need (wait wrong commercial).
 
I found this very helpful and came with the electronic copy of the plans which I purchased prior to building. Not sure if it is common to all models.
 

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Van’s Aircraft does not hide anything in their sales marketing. Shame on you for not figuring out what is needed to build an RV-10 by reading their website!
 
So I’m relatively new to building an RV 10. I’m almost through the empanage. I have the QB wings on order and a slow build fuselage showing up one of these days.

So here’s the heads up. I go to order the finishing kit thinking that’s the end of the 4 kits. Not so....hidden in the catalog on the Vans web page is what’s called the firewall forward kit. So if you think you can build an RV with the 4 kits as laid out on the order forms ...think again. You’ll still have to fork out another at least 7k for the FWF kit.

Seems to me they could be more open with potential customers so we would have the full cost of the build upfront.

Ok that’s my rant for the day.

Keith

I know the total build cost will sneak up on you especially when the order form isn't as front-center. Most people just look at the kit prices and budget the build as such. Since you are building the RV10, all the interior work and fancy avionics needed for your 4-seaters will probably exceed the cost of the kit. I spent more on my build in the last 9 months than in the first 2 years.
 
If you compare the cost of the RV series aircraft kits to other comparable aircraft, it is quite obvious that Van's provides a lot of bang for the buck. You are purchasing an "airframe", period. Engine/prop, electrical, avionics, interior etc: are left to the option of the builder. When I built my early -6, there was no such thing as a FWF kit, and I spent an inordinate amount of time researching and obtaining the parts necessary (no internet or VAF for that matter). Van's FWF kit specific to my engine saved considerable time and money. If you are committed to a -10 build, then the $7k for a FWF kit is money well spent, not to mention you will need those parts anyway.
 
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unless

Unless, of course, you are not going to do the FWF like van does...

Then there will be additional expenses!
 
Drawing 3

If you have the complete drawings for the RV-10, the Firewall Foreward Kit is clearly shown on DWG-3, along with all of the other kits and optional kits in a flowchart form. (which is consistent with all other airplane models as Jemart showed for the -14)

I've kept this drawing on the wall of my shop as a sort of map of what I've done and what remains.
 
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Shopping list

I found it very helpful, albeit disappointing, to keep a shopping spreadsheet. It had all the stuff I wanted but didn't yet purchase. I added items as the build went on. It was quite long but I'm chipping away. If a deal came along, I would buy it and check it off. I'm working FWF now and started getting quotes to nail down remaining costs.
 
So I’m relatively new to building an RV 10. I’m almost through the empanage. I have the QB wings on order and a slow build fuselage showing up one of these days.

So here’s the heads up. I go to order the finishing kit thinking that’s the end of the 4 kits. Not so....hidden in the catalog on the Vans web page is what’s called the firewall forward kit. So if you think you can build an RV with the 4 kits as laid out on the order forms ...think again. You’ll still have to fork out another at least 7k for the FWF kit.

Seems to me they could be more open with potential customers so we would have the full cost of the build upfront.

Ok that’s my rant for the day.

Keith

If you think that's bad just wait til you get your quick-built wings with the poorly constructed leaky tanks... I feel your pain!

-Marc
 
Well...

Well, I feel for you if your qb tanks leaked...but how many have purchased the qb wings and NOT have leaky tanks? Mine are not leaking, knock on wood...23 hours on the airplane, fuel in tanks since November...
 
Van's

I will say Van's aircraft is one of the standout companies in the world. Been dealing with them for over 30 years and have ZERO complaints. They don't have everything but what they do sell it is of a fair price and good if not excellent value.
When I go to the hanger in the morning, I tell my wife I'm going to work on my airplanes and see how much money I can spend.
She just says: see ya later.
These flying machines like to burn money. Plain and simple.
Oh ya Van's helps us.
Enjoy Art
 
My apologies for ruffling so many feathers. That was never my intent. I was simply trying to alert new builders like myself to not overlook the fact the the FWF kit is not easily distinguishable. I did not buy the electronic copy of the plans so I don’t have the drawing shown in a reply. How easy would it be to show it on the kit order form?

Perhaps I should have lurked here for 5-6 years and gone through multiple posts to find out all the nuances of a build before I ordered a kit then I too could be an expert...my bad.

Nuff said
 
Well, I feel for you if your qb tanks leaked...but how many have purchased the qb wings and NOT have leaky tanks? Mine are not leaking, knock on wood...23 hours on the airplane, fuel in tanks since November...

It wasn't only the leaks; when I finally pulled my tanks for repair, the quality (or lack thereof) became clear. They even left a sticker on the aluminum inside the tank! I sincerely hope that Vans has done something about the poor QC in the Philippines. Leaky tanks are one thing but FOD left in the tank is just not cool.

I would tell any builder to omit the tanks on QB wings and build your own if that's possible.

-Marc
 
In the past, Van's was an airframe kit supplier only. You had to figure where everything goes, make your own shopping list and find the suppliers.
 
My apologies for ruffling so many feathers. That was never my intent. I was simply trying to alert new builders like myself to not overlook the fact the the FWF kit is not easily distinguishable. I did not buy the electronic copy of the plans so I don’t have the drawing shown in a reply. How easy would it be to show it on the kit order form?

Perhaps I should have lurked here for 5-6 years and gone through multiple posts to find out all the nuances of a build before I ordered a kit then I too could be an expert...my bad.

Nuff said

I agree with you the FWF kit was a bit of a surprise and thanks for alerting new builders that may have missed this.

The reason the FWF kit is not on the kit order form is it's technically not a kit.
If you call the kits department they say, not a kit..will transfer you to the parts department. Kind of weird but oh well.

I will say that since Greg Hughes has taken over the helm at Vans, they are slowly modernizing the whole operation and IMHO that's a good thing.
 
In the past, Van's was an airframe kit supplier only. You had to figure where everything goes, make your own shopping list and find the suppliers.

My favorite question to get from neighbors and looky-loos: "Didja have to build this thing yourself, or did it come in a kit?" :rolleyes:
 
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My favorite question to get from neighbors and looky-loos: "Didja have to build this thing yourself, or did it come in a kit?" :rolleyes:
I just say, "yes, like Home Depot is a house kit. It's all there, you just have to put it together." That seems to help frame the conversation in a way they can understand.
 
Kit planes and the home builder concept

I think the OP is not out of line to bring this to the attention of new builders. As the “home built industry” has expanded, many have been drawn to build by the awesome airplanes that come from our garages. And not all of them are people who be here without the draw of marketing. All of the kit manufactures market AIRPLANES, but really sell AIRFRAME KITS. That’s the whole crux of the “90% done 90% to go” story.....Of course this makes sense to US, because we know that the 51% rule is based on the airframe, and that those who want to can spend all the $ they want for that second 90%. Or they can fab all of the second 90% at the cost of their time and materials.

I think it’s fair to say that the ease of build of the current kits does lead some to jump in with enthusiasm and later learn that there is quite a bit more to building than just the airframe.

New builders really should understand that the current kit industry really did evolve from guys building airplanes in their garage WITHOUT KITS, and while the kits make it easier, it does not replace that concept.
 
I think the OP is not out of line to bring this to the attention of new builders. As the “home built industry” has expanded, many have been drawn to build by the awesome airplanes that come from our garages. And not all of them are people who be here without the draw of marketing. All of the kit manufactures market AIRPLANES, but really sell AIRFRAME KITS. That’s the whole crux of the “90% done 90% to go” story.....Of course this makes sense to US, because we know that the 51% rule is based on the airframe, and that those who want to can spend all the $ they want for that second 90%. Or they can fab all of the second 90% at the cost of their time and materials.

I think it’s fair to say that the ease of build of the current kits does lead some to jump in with enthusiasm and later learn that there is quite a bit more to building than just the airframe.

New builders really should understand that the current kit industry really did evolve from guys building airplanes in their garage WITHOUT KITS, and while the kits make it easier, it does not replace that concept.

Well said
icon14.gif
 
It wasn't only the leaks; when I finally pulled my tanks for repair, the quality (or lack thereof) became clear. They even left a sticker on the aluminum inside the tank! I sincerely hope that Vans has done something about the poor QC in the Philippines. Leaky tanks are one thing but FOD left in the tank is just not cool.

I would tell any builder to omit the tanks on QB wings and build your own if that's possible.

-Marc

When I did my own QA on my QB tanks, I ran a snake camera through both tanks, looking for gaps in the sealant, missing tubing, objects, etc. I can't say that I'm 100% sure they are okay, but taking a few hours to really look at them inside and out did help. I even took a few photos with the capture feature on my camera for future reference. I use a Depstech camera that we bought from Amazon a few years ago for a home improvement project (trying to see what was inside a soffit before it got demo'd) that uses an iPad for the screen via bluetooth. Costs around $50.

I've used the same camera for other parts on the plane, such as running tail light and AP wires under the rear seats and routing the elevator trim control cables.

On top of a simple pressure test I conducted on the tanks, a long look inside was very useful.
 
I understand the OP's sticker shock, but you have to look at it as though Van's is really just selling you the airframe. What you seem to be faulting Van's for is not telling you what the engine doesn't come with. But let's be honest, the brochure on their website specifically says they have created a FWF kit to allow you to finish out the build, so claiming Van's is hiding the true cost isn't really fair. It behooves anyone interested in building any kitplane to research the full depth of what's involved. Van's does not know what you're doing with the rest of the airplane, so it would be disingenuous to say it will be "X" dollars to fit it out. The rest is dependent upon the "choose your own adventure" selection of engine, prop, etc.

My Titan was about 28K, but that was the basic engine, before I selected a prop, a prop governor, a fuel injection, induction system, oil cooler, ignition system, alternator, starter, and temperature probes, a battery, solenoids, and means to control all of those things. Then you still need an exhaust, an air box, and my current reason for cursing the gods, baffles. The FWD kit contains some, but not all of those things, for a generic configuration. It is helpful, but not completely inclusive, especially when you decide to be contrary and choose a vertical induction.
 
I understand the OP's sticker shock, but you have to look at it as though Van's is really just selling you the airframe.....(SNIP).....

NO....Van's is selling us the whole plane...You can start and finish a RV with what they have for sale.

Th OP was just caught off guard that the FWF kit was not listed as a kit in the main order form.
 
NO....Van's is selling us the whole plane...You can start and finish a RV with what they have for sale.

Th OP was just caught off guard that the FWF kit was not listed as a kit in the main order form.

Bingo we have a winner folks!

Michael I’ll have to hire you as a proof reader for my future posts so as not to lead the masses astray.:eek:
 
NO....Th OP was just caught off guard that the FWF kit was not listed as a kit in the main order form.

Which it could not be because, unlike the airframe kits, there is no standard FWF kit. It depends on the engine and prop combination, neither of which is on the main order form either (excepting the RV-12), and is optional. It would be disingenuous of Vans to sell a FWF kit with the main kits only for the builder to find out that it is largely useless for their application. This is also why Vans allows omissions and substitutions when ordering the FWF (all of which changes the cost). Likewise, there is no avionics kit (again, excepting the RV-12).

Yet Vans does not hide the existence of these kits. Quite the opposite, in fact, along with the many other optional accessories they provide. Oh, and don't go thinking the FWF kit is all you need. Toward the end of my RV-6A build, I was making almost daily Aircraft Spruce orders for adel clamps, metal stop nuts, etc., that was not included in the FWF kit. The FWF kits are just a convenient packaging of components that Vans had been selling separately - convenient, that is, if you happened to be using the exact prop/engine combination that Vans supplied. Useful, with some modification, for the rest of us. Not required, unlike the airframe kits.
 
I just say, "yes, like Home Depot is a house kit. It's all there, you just have to put it together." That seems to help frame the conversation in a way they can understand.

Ive been asked that question numerous times. Best answer yet.
 
While I sympathize with your surprise and predicament, it might be worse. The RV-3B never did get an FWF kit, for example.

Dave
RV-3B, working on the canopy now
 
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