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Getting started on new panel

Brantel

Well Known Member
Been working slowly on getting started with my new G3X based panel.

I have been tossing the idea around my pumpkin to allow Front Panel Express to cut, finish and engrave my panel and have come up with the following as a design:

Click for big high res version.


Not sure on color yet as they offer several options in both anodized and powder coat.

This is going to be a 3 screen G3X system with:
TT Gemini PFD backup (re-use)
TT GX Pilot AP
PSE Audio panel
Garmin 430W (re-use)
Icom A210 2nd Com (re-use)
Stein Vents (re-use)
VPX power system
Garmin GDL-39 behind panel (re-use)
Garmin GTX-23ES behind panel
TT TS-83 behind panel (re-use)
Backup battery behind panel
Van's dimmers (re-use)
ELT controller (re-use)

Plan to keep my 796 and mount it on a ball mount to hang just below the panel centered.

The panel is 1.5" longer vertically than stock. Same as my existing one.
I plan to re-use the aluminum angles that wrap the top from my existing panel. Bottom edge will get a new reinforcing angle. These angles will get bolted on with 4-40 screws. I am bolting in the radio stack support rails.

The existing panel support ribs will have to be relocated and I allowed space for them and pre-drilled the holes.

So what do you guys think...Did I miss anything? Any gotcha's going to get me? Would you just have to change something? Do you think I am crazy?
 
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Looks good.

Brantel, where are the holes for the two ribs that attach to the forward bulkhead?

[kentb] Never mind, I see them now.

Kent
 
My thought would be flip nav and strobe switches. Strobe is first on and first off if causing problems.

I would move boost pump over between elec. trim and flap.... It's just part of that t/o landing group.

I would move the avionics switch out by itself in that area above the left vent centered between the two round cutouts. You only have one reason to reach up there.

The panel looks great!
 
Good catch on flipping the NAV and Strobe switches. Not sure why I put them in that order to start with....

I use my boost pump during start so that is why I have it where it is in the flow. Thanks for the suggestion.

I like the idea of one continuous flow for startup. Putting the avionics master up there breaks that flow and I hate reaching across or switching hands on the stick. Also thanks for this suggestion

I think I am gonna add the Pitot heat to the "Heat" grouping.

My thought would be flip nav and strobe switches. Strobe is first on and first off if causing problems.

I would move boost pump over between elec. trim and flap.... It's just part of that t/o landing group.

I would move the avionics switch out by itself in that area above the left vent centered between the two round cutouts. You only have one reason to reach up there.

The panel looks great!
 
Anyone with similar gear found any reason to put in any panel mounted 9 pin D-shell or USB connectors for updates? (something I wish I had done for my existing Dynon setup)

Not sure it makes any sense for the G3X based system???

The Gemini has a TS-83 module for updates but I think I will leave it behind the panel since there is really no reason to get to it or see it in flight.
 
You update the G3X with SD cards Brian - no need for exposed USB connectors or D-Subs....very convenient!

Paul
 
You update the G3X with SD cards Brian - no need for exposed USB connectors or D-Subs....very convenient!

Paul

That's what I thought...just wanted to confirm. So busy on other things, I have no time to comb the manuals to be sure.

Not sure I will be able to control myself after I get this panel blank back. It is going to be screaming for me to start ripping out my old one.

It and Stein will have to wait however. :(

So far the pricing tool has this panel blank and all the machining, engraving and color in-fill costing ~$300.00. Seems reasonable.
 
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Looks good. You have likely already considered this and rejected it, but what about putting the engine controls on a separate bracket that attaches to the bottom of the panel? Then you don't have to pull the panel when you replace/repair/maintain them. Just a thought.
Erich
 
Pretty sweet Brian! I don't know how you do it. There's plenty I would like to buy but nothing ever sounds better than 100ll. Man I love flying that thing!
 
I see a hole for prop pitch control - thought you had a fixed pitch unit?
 
Brian,
I don't remember where your switches are on your current panel. If they are on the bottom then ignore this.

Mine are on the bottom pretty much like you propose and I have noticed they are subject to accidental "turn-on", mostly during unusual activity like maintenance.

If I were to do over, I would consider installing some switch protector hoops. (I may do so in a few selected spots on current panel)
 
I like it

One minor aesthetic comment. If possible to lower the radio stack just a bit, the top would line up with the EFIS tops.
 
Looks good. You have likely already considered this and rejected it, but what about putting the engine controls on a separate bracket that attaches to the bottom of the panel? Then you don't have to pull the panel when you replace/repair/maintain them. Just a thought.
Erich

I think its the other way around, you have to remove the cables if you remove the panel. It is painful but I can't take anything else sticking down below the panel due to my size. I am thick and won't fit under if I do.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
 
Pretty sweet Brian! I don't know how you do it. There's plenty I would like to buy but nothing ever sounds better than 100ll. Man I love flying that thing!

People love eating BEANS! And they love Duke!

Really though, a big part of the fun for me is the integration and the technology and figuring all of that stuff out and seeing it work in the end.
 
I see a hole for prop pitch control - thought you had a fixed pitch unit?

Keen eye and attention to detail!

That is provisions for the future. In a couple years when my wallet recovers, I plan to fill that hole.
 
One minor aesthetic comment. If possible to lower the radio stack just a bit, the top would line up with the EFIS tops.

Ahhh, but you have to allow for the G3X bezels which overhang the actual cutout since the screens are larger than the hole they occupy. Once you do that, they will be even.
 
Brian,
I don't remember where your switches are on your current panel. If they are on the bottom then ignore this.

Mine are on the bottom pretty much like you propose and I have noticed they are subject to accidental "turn-on", mostly during unusual activity like maintenance.

If I were to do over, I would consider installing some switch protector hoops. (I may do so in a few selected spots on current panel)

Thanks Bill, I have several on the lower part of the existing panel. Not really been a problem for me. I am one that likes all the switches down when not operating so it is easy to notice if I left something on. I can add guards later if it becomes an issue.

Best regards and it was nice to meet you face to face at the flyin. Thanks for coming!
 
The passenger warning could use one additional sentence: "It's better."

Were you happy with the 430 as far to the right? I know the screen starts to fade before the box's left edge passes the centerline. Crowding the screens and stack left will start mangling support ribs, so it's that or leaning right a bit.

John Siebold
 
I think its the other way around, you have to remove the cables if you remove the panel. It is painful but I can't take anything else sticking down below the panel due to my size. I am thick and won't fit under if I do.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

Notch the panel so the cable can be placed into position and an insert is then bolted in place. Properly designed, you won't even notice it.
 
...
I use my boost pump during start so that is why I have it where it is in the flow. Thanks for the suggestion.

I like the idea of one continuous flow for startup. Putting the avionics master up there breaks that flow and I hate reaching across or switching hands on the stick. Also thanks for this suggestion

I think I am gonna add the Pitot heat to the "Heat" grouping.

While I agree with the startup flow, using your bost pump in flight is more critical than on the ground, during startup.

Besides, having it next to your primer and ignition switches means that you will hit the wrong switch during a bumpy flight.

By moving it, your landing sequence will be:
- Taxi light
- Landing light
- Bost pump
- Flaps & Throttle as needed

Try to group things by "phase of flight".
 
While I agree with the startup flow, using your bost pump in flight is more critical than on the ground, during startup.

Besides, having it next to your primer and ignition switches means that you will hit the wrong switch during a bumpy flight.

By moving it, your landing sequence will be:
- Taxi light
- Landing light
- Bost pump
- Flaps & Throttle as needed

Try to group things by "phase of flight".

To be honest Bill, I run it all the time. Not that it really matters but I got in this habit because of the bug in carburated RV's with VDO fuel pressure sensors where the pressure indication drops and causes false alarms. I got sick of seeing the pressure so low so I just started running the boost pump all the time. I turn it off during run-up to make sure the mechanical pump still works.

The engine has never quit even with those false low pressure indications at altitude with the boost pump off. I just can't break the habit of leaving it on all the time.
 
The passenger warning could use one additional sentence: "It's better."

Were you happy with the 430 as far to the right? I know the screen starts to fade before the box's left edge passes the centerline. Crowding the screens and stack left will start mangling support ribs, so it's that or leaning right a bit.

John Siebold

Haha,

I have seen those kinds of statements on other planes....

The 430W will have to suffer a little bit in order to cram it all in. Like you say, the support rib needs to go in there somewhere and it needs clearance so everything must shift. I want the Gemini as high as I can get it in the panel for backup and I have it scooted over about as far left as I can get it. I have just enough clearance for the rib in between it and the G3X screens and I have both of them close together. I am planning to only use 1/2" stack rails so that puts the radio stack just to the right of the centerline.

I will play around with my existing panel to see if that bothers me at all before cutting the order for this panel.

The thing that worries me more than that is having the radio stack under one of the tipup hinge points. Regardless of what the folks at Van's have somehow tricked themselves into believing, these things do leak water at that joint!
 
More thoughts

Brian,

I have two +12V outlets. One that is switched with the master and one that is always hot. The always hot outlet is handy for connecting a trickle charger (nice while the screens are on but the engine won't be). Also allows things like charging a cell phone, using a +12V pump for my air mattress, etc. without having to activate the master. From your panel, it looks like you have two batteries, so it would take some thought about which battery to connect to an always hot outlet.

My panel has radio rack side plates that extend from the panel to the subpanel and also function as the support ribs between the panel and the subpanel.

Do you have a switch for the P-MAG AND use the keystart switch to turn the P-MAG on? Is the switch for the P-MAG power so you can easily test the internal alternator? Maybe a better application for a breaker than a switch?

Regards,
 
The thing that worries me more than that is having the radio stack under one of the tipup hinge points. Regardless of what the folks at Van's have somehow tricked themselves into believing, these things do leak water at that joint!

Make a trough and a drain tube. They do this on cars with special drain needs. The Solstice trunk for example.
 
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Brian,

I have two +12V outlets. One that is switched with the master and one that is always hot. The always hot outlet is handy for connecting a trickle charger (nice while the screens are on but the engine won't be). Also allows things like charging a cell phone, using a +12V pump for my air mattress, etc. without having to activate the master. From your panel, it looks like you have two batteries, so it would take some thought about which battery to connect to an always hot outlet.

My panel has radio rack side plates that extend from the panel to the subpanel and also function as the support ribs between the panel and the subpanel.

Do you have a switch for the P-MAG AND use the keystart switch to turn the P-MAG on? Is the switch for the P-MAG power so you can easily test the internal alternator? Maybe a better application for a breaker than a switch?

Regards,

The second battery will only be a small one to backup the EFIS system and the Gemini.

Good idea on the radio rack/panel support rib

The Keyswitch is for controlling the P-leads for the mag and the p-mag and of course the starter motor. The power for the p-mag is fed from the VPX. The toggle switch is the signal for the VPX. The current protection for the p-mag comes from the VPX.

Thanks for the suggestions!
 
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Make a trough and a drain tube. They do this on cars with special drain needs. The Solstice trunk for example.

I am definitely going to try something like this to protect the radio stack when I rip into it. Thanks for reminding me about this way of doing it.
 
Switch hole anti-rotation tabs?

Hi Brian,
I like the panel. Regarding the comment about guarding switches against accidental activation, using locking switches like those made by Eaton can help here.

I see you have the anti-rotation tab defined in the switch hole cut-outs. I must be missing something as I've not found how to define this in the FrontPanelExpress software.

Did you define these somehow yourself? Or did you find the definition somewhere online?

Either way, would you be able to share this info here or send it to me somehow?

Would greatly appreciate that if you could.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Brian,
I am doing a layout for my panel now. I am using ACAD and the drawing from Vans. Im still looking at all systems, but leaning to the MGL new IEFIS. My question is about mounting the screens. When I put them where I want, they interfere with the 2 support ribs the panel mounts to. Is it possible to modify the supports or is the screen thin enough it doesn't matter? Having never seen one of the screens, Im not sure how they mount and I didn't see a side view on any of the sites.

Your panel looks great to me and there have been some great comments here that are helping me do a layout. thanks
 
Hi Brian,
I like the panel. Regarding the comment about guarding switches against accidental activation, using locking switches like those made by Eaton can help here.

I see you have the anti-rotation tab defined in the switch hole cut-outs. I must be missing something as I've not found how to define this in the FrontPanelExpress software.

Did you define these somehow yourself? Or did you find the definition somewhere online?

Either way, would you be able to share this info here or send it to me somehow?

Would greatly appreciate that if you could.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,

I drew them myself in Autocad by looking up the spec sheet for the switches I am using. I then save it as a DXF and import it into Panel Express. Did the same for the G3X cut outs, keyswitch etc.

I can draw em and send you the file if you want. No problem.
 
Brian,
I am doing a layout for my panel now. I am using ACAD and the drawing from Vans. Im still looking at all systems, but leaning to the MGL new IEFIS. My question is about mounting the screens. When I put them where I want, they interfere with the 2 support ribs the panel mounts to. Is it possible to modify the supports or is the screen thin enough it doesn't matter? Having never seen one of the screens, Im not sure how they mount and I didn't see a side view on any of the sites.

Your panel looks great to me and there have been some great comments here that are helping me do a layout. thanks

These days most panels interfere with those ribs. Most of us cut them off and reposition them where needed.
 
Great looking panel! You may consider changing the "MKE" label of the headset input to "MIC". :)

Mike-male name
MIC-abbreviation for microphone

It's always the odd things I notice.

Have you thought about changing the "430W" label for the autopilot to "GPS" for future upgrades?
 
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Brevity is the soul of wit, they say...

You have a lot of excess verbiage on the labels for my taste. E.g., you have the battery switches labelled "Batt" on the right, then each of them also includes the word "Batt". Similarly, are there any other kind of "nav" or "strobe" or "taxi" or "landing" switches than "lights"? Interior light dimmers...generally, CW is "more", CCW is "less", no need for the two-line explanation.

Layout looks excellent...will be a joy to fly behind. I'd just clean it up a bit and make it more "spartan" in the text areas.
 
Brevity is the soul of wit, they say...

You have a lot of excess verbiage on the labels for my taste. E.g., you have the battery switches labelled "Batt" on the right, then each of them also includes the word "Batt". Similarly, are there any other kind of "nav" or "strobe" or "taxi" or "landing" switches than "lights"? Interior light dimmers...generally, CW is "more", CCW is "less", no need for the two-line explanation.

Layout looks excellent...will be a joy to fly behind. I'd just clean it up a bit and make it more "spartan" in the text areas.

The BATT on the right of the master switch is there for a reason. This is a three position switch. The middle is battery only. The top position is battery and alternator.

I have already worked on the lights grouping to remove the lights word from each of them. I need to update the dwg and repost.

Thanks for the good suggestions.

This is going to be one refined panel!
 
Switch keyway

Steve,

I drew them myself in Autocad by looking up the spec sheet for the switches I am using. I then save it as a DXF and import it into Panel Express. Did the same for the G3X cut outs, keyswitch etc.

I can draw em and send you the file if you want. No problem.

Hi Brian, Thanks.

Was already familiar with DXF files through creating bespoke panel shapes. Have found the menu item I was missing in FrontPanelExpress (Insert, Free Contour, then import DXF). I successfully built a DXF file for my switch cut-out with keyway (I use the free SolidEdge 2D package).

I have seen one slight issue though which may be worth being aware of. My FPE software permits the smallest cutter size to be specified as 1mm. This is too big to get right into the corners of the keyway shape, so doesn't give quite a clean enough shape. Would probably need a bit of tidying up with a triangular file. Not the end of the world but a minor inconvenience.

Your panel image looks very precise in this respect so I am guessing it is not yet in the final FPE format. Might be worth checking for this sort of issue so you know the score before you press 'Go' on the order.

Unless there is something else you know that I don't, in which case would be glad to hear.

Best of Luck,
Steve
 
[ed....not sure how I missed reading my suggestion in a previous post, sorry for the repeat.]

One other suggestion, I would not denote the 430W specifically for the AP track source. I would simply denote it as "GPS" as you may [or not] upgrade the 430W to another someday.

Other than that...can I get a copy of your file, you just designed my panel [seriously]. :D
 
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Hi Brian, Thanks.

Was already familiar with DXF files through creating bespoke panel shapes. Have found the menu item I was missing in FrontPanelExpress (Insert, Free Contour, then import DXF). I successfully built a DXF file for my switch cut-out with keyway (I use the free SolidEdge 2D package).

I have seen one slight issue though which may be worth being aware of. My FPE software permits the smallest cutter size to be specified as 1mm. This is too big to get right into the corners of the keyway shape, so doesn't give quite a clean enough shape. Would probably need a bit of tidying up with a triangular file. Not the end of the world but a minor inconvenience.

Your panel image looks very precise in this respect so I am guessing it is not yet in the final FPE format. Might be worth checking for this sort of issue so you know the score before you press 'Go' on the order.

Unless there is something else you know that I don't, in which case would be glad to hear.

Best of Luck,
Steve

Steve, Yep the pics posted are from FPE so I have the same issue up in the corners of the switch tangs. I figured I would have to clean them up. It is a limitation of rotary cutter style CNC'd panels I guess.
 
[ed....not sure how I missed reading my suggestion in a previous post, sorry for the repeat.]

One other suggestion, I would not denote the 430W specifically for the AP track source. I would simply denote it as "GPS" as you may [or not] upgrade the 430W to another someday.

Other than that...can I get a copy of your file, you just designed my panel [seriously]. :D

Shoot me an email and I will send it over.
 
Looks nice.
Make sure the throttle/mixture/prop surrounds clear the friction nuts.
Might lose the parenthesis on the primer and flap labels. I know, momentary, but the becomes obvious and they clutter the text.
Consider moving the carb heat inboard so you can shove all the stuff forward quickly if the need arises.
Flap control works great there. That is how I have mine. Tease it with your thumb.
Is that a trim switch or indicator? If switch, label nose down or nose up. I never get it right the first time when flying a plane with a panel switch.
And, you'd really, really hate to accidentally hit that avionics master instead of the strobe when you penetrate a cloud. Might want to think about that. Lock, guard, or move.
I picked up a little vertical space by putting the grouping label in a break in the grouping surround. I'd post a pic, but the seven layers of protection at work won't let me get to imageshack. Maybe this will work:
https://picasaweb.google.com/100734942664424073321/October82012?authkey=Gv1sRgCMq90Pzbpsnz8gE
 
Looks nice.
Make sure the throttle/mixture/prop surrounds clear the friction nuts.
Might lose the parenthesis on the primer and flap labels. I know, momentary, but the becomes obvious and they clutter the text.
Consider moving the carb heat inboard so you can shove all the stuff forward quickly if the need arises.
Flap control works great there. That is how I have mine. Tease it with your thumb.
Is that a trim switch or indicator? If switch, label nose down or nose up. I never get it right the first time when flying a plane with a panel switch.
And, you'd really, really hate to accidentally hit that avionics master instead of the strobe when you penetrate a cloud. Might want to think about that. Lock, guard, or move.
I picked up a little vertical space by putting the grouping label in a break in the grouping surround. I'd post a pic, but the seven layers of protection at work won't let me get to imageshack. Maybe this will work:
https://picasaweb.google.com/100734942664424073321/October82012?authkey=Gv1sRgCMq90Pzbpsnz8gE

Mike good suggestions.

I have checked the clearance. Most of the stuff looks like it has too much clearance but it really does not once the items are in their holes. I had issues on my original panel where my labels ended up under switch nuts and stuff like that so I have been careful to allow plenty of room on this one.

I think I will keep the parenthesis on the momentary switches. It is just a personal preference.

Carb heat has proven to be very low priority in my current panel. Actually I have never used it. That is why I moved it over to a less important area.

Love my flaps next to the throttle.

It is a trim switch. I like the different feel and the brake action provided by the Ray Allen trim switch. The switch itself has the UP/DWN label on it. (A sticker you put on after you bolt it in)

We will see how it goes on the avionics switch. I could go with a locking one or a guard. I don't want to move it due to the flow.

The Front Panel Express software does not allow for (at least not that I can find) a way to break the engraved group and insert text in the middle of it. I had originally planned for this but ended up having to change it.
 
Brian,

do yourself a favor and put a PTT on each side of the panel (top, just below the glareshield). Wire it in parallel to the control sticks, just be careful with shielding / because of noise. but overall it's a cheap investment into a lot of comfort (especially if you plan to travel).

We made one for the right seat (in case of 2nd pilot as passenger, being able to use comms / split comm without interfering with PIC control input.) but should have installed another one for the left seat as well...
When you're on autopilot, even the small pull on the PTT (at least with the ray allen stick grip) can be felt / is counteracted by the AP.

kind regards,

Bernie
 
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