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POTUS TFR Incursion

Last weekend, I was speaking to FSS prior to departing HPN VFR to the southwest. I could see a charted TFR for Trump's later departure from MMU, but not the current one while he was at Bedminster. The briefer volunteered that they didn't have the current TFR in their system, but his supervisor had told him that Skyvector had it charted. Sure enough, I could see it on the Skyvector website. As a result, I didn't become an incursion statistic.

I always call FSS about TFRs, BUT if the briefer hadn't volunteered that he had other information, I could have intruded on the TFR. I almost feel that I got lucky because the briefer shared his "other information".

By the way, I was was IFR inbound to HPN 2 days prior on my planned route around the TFR and ATC vectored me and others through the TFR. I appreciated the shortcut.

Y'all be careful out there.
 
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FWIW this is the "official" TFR website:

https://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html

I generally fly IFR everywhere I go for work but use foreflight and/or skyvector for preflight brief and they always seem to have TFRs depicted well. I have a Dynon HDX in my cub with ADSB in/out and its "supposed" to depict TFRs real-time.
 
Even the "official" TFR site has a big red-boxed CYA at the bottom which reads:

Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.

That's why I always call, BUT if the FSS doesn't even have the "latest" TFR charted, as was my case, it seems we, the pilots, would still be to blame, because we all know what rolls downhill! I highly doubt Foreflight, Garmin Pilot or ADS-B would take the rap for an uncharted active TFR.

Y'all be careful out there.
 
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Even the "official" TFR site has a big red-boxed CYA at the bottom which reads:

Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.

That's why I always call, BUT if the FSS doesn't even have the "latest" TFR charted, as was my case, it seems we, the pilots, would still be to blame, because we all know what rolls downhill! I highly doubt Foreflight, Garmin Pilot or ADS-B would take the rap for an uncharted active TFR.

Y'all be careful out there.

This seems like a real catch-22. The official TFR site may not have a complete listing, and says to check FSS. The OP's direct experience shows the FSS doesn't necessarily have the complete current info. Seems pretty hard to expect to enforce a TFR if neither of the official sources have it.

BTW, 9 times out of 10 when I call FSS from the air, I get no answer. Flightwatch used to be incrementally better, but that's gone now.

I tend to use VFR flight following pretty regularly, in the hopes that the controllers will alert me and/or vector me around TFRs. Not a guarantee (nothing seems to be) but it is one additional layer of protection.
 
Everyone can and should sign up for automatic notifications from the FAA regarding TFR's for your area, easy to do and only takes a few minutes. You can and should follow social media sites that also notify pilots of pending TFR's.

In today's age of smart phone tech, there's no excuse not to know. We're now entering silly season, make sure you always check for TFR's before you depart.

I freaked out the other day when I say his two VH-3 helicopters along with two V-22's flying westbound over my home town. My friends were up flying at that time and I thought they were screwed. Once I looked at the notams and TFR, the TFR for that presidential visit wasn't for another 48 hours and those silly Marine aviators were apparently out practicing their route and remote landing site procedures for a POTUS visit 48 hours from then.

Got my heart going a bit to see that flight of 4....
 
Has anyone ever noticed an active TFR is not posted graphically on ForeFlight or via ADSB?

I realize the phone call is the only approved method but I’m wondering how vulnerable other methods are.
 
Even the "official" TFR site has a big red-boxed CYA at the bottom which reads:

Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.

That's why I always call, BUT if the FSS doesn't even have the "latest" TFR charted, as was my case, it seems we, the pilots, would still be to blame, because we all know what rolls downhill! I highly doubt Foreflight, Garmin Pilot or ADS-B would take the rap for an uncharted active TFR.

Y'all be careful out there.

I am pretty confident that the calls to FSS are recorded and you would have a good excuse for the incursion during the FAA debrief from that event if you called for an official briefing and not given the TFR details. FAA seems to be clear that FSS is "the source" for info like this.

Seems the bigger issue is monitoring gaurd, if not already talking with ATC. I suspect there is way less drama if ATC can get a hold of you and you quickly vacate the TFR space. The large POTUS TFR's (not the small inner ring) allow you to fly within them for ingress / egress, with some restrictions, as long as you have a squawk code and are talking to ATC. We had to deal with A LOT of these in Chicago during the Obama era. My airport was alway under them.

Larry
 
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I am pretty confident that the calls to FSS are recorded and you would have a good excuse for the incursion during the FAA debrief from that event if you called for an official briefing and not given the TFR details. FAA seems to be clear that FSS is "the source" for info like this.

Seems the bigger issue is monitoring gaurd. I suspect there is way less drama if ATC can get a hold of you and you quickly vacate the TFR space.

Larry

I've heard ATC trying to alert an aircraft that was about to penetrate a TFR multiple times on guard while working (airline; we always have it up on comm 2 during cruise). They *really* try - like attempting several times minutes before the penetration begins AND continuing afterwards while the aircraft is in the TFR providing directions on the quickest way to exit, then finally intercept notice/instructions.

Unfortunately, there is also a bunch of buffoonery on 121.5 that makes keeping tuned all the time annoying. The "meows", the "GAUURD" calls, and more. But there's no denying it's value to helping keep you out of a TFR.
 
A bad choice of words?

I can't imagine he was making a negative comment about the fine men and women that help to defend our country and way of life. I suspect his comment was targeted at the administrators that find it necessary to require practice flights whose purpose is to bring our politic leaders to golfing events.

Larry
 
I can't imagine he was making a negative comment about the fine men and women that help to defend our country and way of life. I suspect his comment was targeted at the administrators that find it necessary to require practice flights whose purpose is to bring our politic leaders to golfing events.

Larry

I fully believe it was a tongue in cheek inter-service branch remark about Marines, or just simple chatting.

As for listening up on guard for these "silly" TFRs, two comments. If you need to be called, it's too late. Second, there's nothing more chilling than hearing a US citizen Air Force pilot threaten to "fire upon" a wayward US citizen GA pilot. Nice!
 
If you need to be called, it's too late.

Not always. Sometimes my tangential passage of a TFR circle trips the "first call" buffer. Always fun to talk on guard with a purpose: "Thanks, USAF, I'm your bogie, I am well aware and will remain clear."
 
Interesting that they had to fire flares to get the pilot's attention. In addition to being unaware of the TFR, seems he was also not looking much outside or paying any attention to ADS-B traffic either.
 
Not always. Sometimes my tangential passage of a TFR circle trips the "first call" buffer. Always fun to talk on guard with a purpose: "Thanks, USAF, I'm your bogie, I am well aware and will remain clear."

Well, I stand corrected. As the memory comes alive, I recall an instance near the TFR where I heard the air force pilot threatening to fire upon the GA pilot, where I was called on guard by a very nervous center controller wanting me to steer farther away from the TFR at another point in time. Can't be too safe, can we?!

But it's sure a good thing we have all these hundreds of billions of dollars, maybe trillions of dollars of security protecting us from these dangerous little airplanes and people.
 
I am pretty confident that the calls to FSS are recorded and you would have a good excuse for the incursion during the FAA debrief from that event if you called for an official briefing and not given the TFR details. FAA seems to be clear that FSS is "the source" for info like this.

Larry

I teach regularly in the DC SFRA. I have been coaching all of my students for a couple of years that a 5 minute call to the briefer - even if they get their briefings through electronic means - to check for pop-up TFRs or other creative uses of the sky - before the flight is time well spent and for exactly the above reason.

Agreed with the other post about monitoring Guard. It got pretty bad last summer with a lot of useless chatter (meowing, etc) but it's been much better of late.
 
I teach regularly in the DC SFRA. I have been coaching all of my students for a couple of years that a 5 minute call to the briefer - even if they get their briefings through electronic means - to check for pop-up TFRs or other creative uses of the sky - before the flight is time well spent and for exactly the above reason.

Agreed with the other post about monitoring Guard. It got pretty bad last summer with a lot of useless chatter (meowing, etc) but it's been much better of late.

I think this is one more reason to leverage flight following. In these cases, you are already talking with ATC and they can easily warn you if you venture close to an active TFR zone, before it becomes an actionable event. While they may not provide 100% coverage for traffic and wx (though I find it quite reliable), I am pretty confident that you can expect a warning if nearing a TFR. The facility that you are speaking with will likely be the one responsible for identifying/preventing TFR incursions. I can't imagine they enjoy calling up an intercept flight and the follow on paper work that is likely involved.

Larry
 
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About an average of every other week, we hear someone violating the SFRA. Usually you hear the USAF on 121.5 and, as I recall, the majority of the time it's an aircraft doing <70KIAS which makes me think someone with an ultralight or autogyro or something is traipsing about a little too close to the gates....
 
As for listening up on guard for these "silly" TFRs, two comments. If you need to be called, it's too late. Second, there's nothing more chilling than hearing a US citizen Air Force pilot threaten to "fire upon" a wayward US citizen GA pilot. Nice!
A USAF aircraft shooting down a US-registered private aircraft in US airspace would cause as much outrage as George Floyd's murder. Despite the saber-rattling, I seriously doubt it would ever happen.
 
A USAF aircraft shooting down a US-registered private aircraft in US airspace would cause as much outrage as George Floyd's murder. Despite the saber-rattling, I seriously doubt it would ever happen.
I'm quite sure that the average US Joe 6-pack would say the rich airplane owner got what he deserved. Prob getting too political now, so I'll stop.

As for TFR avoidance, good luck. I've heard ATC vague as to the specifics of TFR on occasion. I rely primarily on Garmin Pilot and the red graphics on the map. And what's with the lawyer terminology in the TFR NOTAM?? That just makes them harder to comprehend.
 
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F-16 flares

This is what it looks like when you're intercepted by an F-16 and you ignore the "follow and land now" command.
IMG_0768.jpg
 
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