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Aerovoltz Lithium-ion battery

L

longez360

Member
Hi All, I am interested in the application of lithiun-ion battery technology to my aircraft to reduce weight. The availability of the Aerovoltz 16 cell (available from from Aircraft Spruce and other aviation suppliers - link below) would cut my 15.4lbs Odyssey PC680 battery weight to 3lbs total.................
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aerovoltz4.php

A supplier (Leading Edge Airfoils) has stated:
"Yes. The battery is a drop in replacement and will work well with the aircraft charging system.* I would strongly recommend purchasing the Aerovoltz battery charger for ground charging. It is quite different than that of a lead acid battery charger and will greatly extend the life of the bettery."

Does anyone have any experience with this specific battery system in an aircraft? I cannot find any specification or contact information on the Aerovoltz website to quiz their engineers.

I have read most of the non-specific/unrelated lithium ion battery horror stories on the net and would prefer to avoid descending into that discussion, but rather keep this thread more specific.

Cheers

Wayne Blackler
Long EZ O-360
AUSTRALIA
 
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Exact same price and the same marketing bullets....I'd say we have a match. :p

It is interesting stuff. I was considering trying a small one out for another project...haven't heard any feedback elsewhere yet.

One thing I saw on another site:

"Does the BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE COMPONENT Battery work well with a constant draw?
The current product has been designed and developed as a starter battery in a powersports application. If there is a parasitic draw on your powersports vehicle (such as an alarm) we recommend that you disconnect the battery when not in use. If the battery is completely drained the cells can be damaged."

And looks like a little more fall off in below freezing weather: http://www.ballisticparts.com/tech/faq.php

Not nay-saying...just looking for things to be aware of.

PS. Amazon has them for $239 and free shipping. http://www.amazon.com/PERFORMANCE-16-CELL-MOTORCYCLE-BATTERY/dp/B005C5XS2U (Not the aviation branded one...no idea if there is any difference.)
 
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Some more info:

Wayne, thank you for the call yesterday, our lithium iron phosphate batteries are compatible with the 12 volt charging systems. *We do not currently have a BMS system in the battery due to cranking amp restrictions and cost to build a custom one. Our larger 1000cca batteries have them but sell for around 1000.00 us.

I have several of the larger plane builders now offering our battery as an OEM upgrade with the Kitfox brand, Titan, mosquito helicopters, and a long list of folks out field testing like Cub Crafters, Pipistrel and a few others.

We have ceramic heat shields built into the cases and we have passed all of the UNDOT testing standards for safety.

I do offer a balance charger and the batteries have a balance port built in for optimum charging and service life. *

Please let me know if you have any questions or need specific information.

Kind regards
Steve Johnson
Everything Aero
Sent from my iPad
 
At my 'day job' I work as a software engineer at an electric vehicle company. Li-ion packs could eventually be great for airplanes, but until vendor X has integrated BMS (a little computer that constantly monitors battery health and performs needed balancing) I would stay away.

Li-ion packs can generate big fires very quickly (I've seen it first hand).
 
DCat22 said:
Are these "Lithium Iron Phosphate" and "Lithium Ion" the same thing?
Click to expand...

I don't know what chemistry these packs are using but LFPs (lithium iron phosphate) batteries are different from lithium ion batteries (typically involving cobalt).

LFP cells are safer than most Li-ion (or Li-po) batteries, but I still wouldn't want to use them without a BMS.

Besides preventing fires, BMSes also keep you from draining your battery too low or overcharging.
 
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DCat22 said:
Are these "Lithium Iron Phosphate" and "Lithium Ion" the same thing?
Click to expand...

No, they are abolsteuly not! This thread has totally confused the two - and Aircraft Spruce's catalog hasn't helped - they don't even know what they're selling.....

From what I can tell, the Lithium IRON technology has temendous potential, and the batteries are in common use in vehicles such as motorcycles.

Lithium Ion? Still some stability issues....
 
DCat22 said:
Are these "Lithium Iron Phosphate" and "Lithium Ion" the same thing?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, lithium-ion is a generic term for lithium chemistry batteries. So, a lithium iron phoshate battery is considerded a lithium ion battery. But, lithium iron phosphate batteries are supposed to be safer than the more common lithium cobalt oxide batteries because it is much harder to get an exothermic reaction that releases oxygen from the iron phoshate as compared to the cobalt oxide. Hence, they are supposed to be more stable and less likely to explode or catch fire if abused. I'm no expert, this is just what I learned when looking into this for another application.
 
lithium batt

aerovoltz is same as ballistic motorcycle batteries with a new sticker.
great for starting a motorcycle engine.
Has any one opened one up to look inside ?
 
wow

From Aircraft Spruce customer service;
Good evening Andy,
I have attached the information you needed for the Aerovoltz battery, and on the difference in the motorcycle to the aviation, there is not really any difference. He said they do that to keep track of which group sells better and it is more of a branding thing. Parts are the same. Let us know if you need anything else!
Thank you and have a great evening!
 
Any updates to this product? Anyone bought one?

Just saw Wicks is now carrying them, I too am worried about the Lithium fire stigma.
 
Lithium batteries

I have been involved with the certification of lithium ion batteries on aircraft and the requirements for a safe installation. I know we are experimental and those dang regs don't apply to us, but there are some real safety concerns. In general lithium ion batteries include all of the current lithium type 2 (rechargable) technologies. They ALL have the potential for fire and explosion. Some just more than others. Lithium iron phosphate chemistries are the only batteries currently approved for certified aircraft as primary batteries used for starting.

In general the hazard is an over discharge comdition, over charge condition or manufacturing fault that leads to overheating and venting of the electrolyte, which is flammable in all cases. In most li-ion chemistries, the electrolyte vents at a temperature that issufficient to auto ignite on contact with air. The iron phosphate electrolyte typically does not auto ignite. It is however rather flammable and will explosivly burn if exposed to an ignition source.

All li-ion batteries require battery charge and discharge control circuits which typically disconnect in the over charging or over discharging, or over temperature conditions to protect the battery from failing and venting electrolyte. They also serve to ensure the cells remain balanced during charge. Batteries used for starting the engine see particularly rigorous duty. Without battery charge/ discharge control they are doomed to a shortened life and potential failure. I have conducted failure testing of iron phosphate chemistries. Think 3 ft diameter fireball.
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

Dan, welcome to VAF:D

Good info on the batteries, thanks.

Good to have you aboard.
 
RVDan said:
It is however rather flammable and will explosivly burn if exposed to an ignition source.

I have conducted failure testing of iron phosphate chemistries. Think 3 ft diameter fireball.
Click to expand...

Please describe the test conditions/scenarios. You did say that they have been approved, so I assume these scenarios are not likely.
 
Echo Tango said:
for marine applications (not an aircraft owner yet, but marine stuff is abused in a similar fashion) i'm a huge proponent of AGM batteries, which don't offer much weight-savings but are superior in almost every other aspect. that's about as far as i'm willing to go concerning "new" battery technology. i've been using LiPo long enough in R/C aviation to know how dangerous some of this stuff is.

AGM > *

for me, at least
Click to expand...
For the most part, the horror stories about exploding Lithium Ion batteries are about the LiPo batteries. However, I have not seen any scientific studies/evidence detailing the same dangers of LiFePo batteries. Is there anyone on this forum with real scientific information detailing the differences between the LiPo batteries and the LiFePo batteries as they relate to the potential for overheating, run away heating or susceptibility for explosion?
 
Not trying to start anything, and most definitely not claiming expertise.

But my car runs on Lithium Ion batteries -- or at least that's what the manufacturer tells me. I haven't felt like a roast chicken yet, so at least at some level it seems like we should give the technology a chance.

Or is it that the danger is greater with a lithium-ion battery used to deliver hi-amp cranking energy vs powering a vehicle?

What type of batteries are the new crop of electric aircraft flying on? (Unless the use case makes my question irrelevant.)

I am fully aware of the propensity of some batteries to cause fires, and think that there's a huge difference between pulling the car over and descending from 17,500 ft.
 
mculver said:
I am fully aware of the propensity of some batteries to cause fires, and think that there's a huge difference between pulling the car over and descending from 17,500 ft.
Click to expand...

If you have a battery fire at 17.5, getting down will not be a problem, that's the problem!
 
This is all great discussion. In a general response for the customer there are several variations of Lithium Ion type batteries, there are two that are the main source of discussion in the market, Lithium Iron Phosphate (Aerovoltz Type) and the Lithium Polymer batteries that are in our cell phones and lap tops. Both are very powerful and have great properties that are a good fit for aviation but I agree with the posts that Lithium Polymers are not my first choice due to their ability to burn if they are fully shorted out.

Aerovoltz batteries have passed UN-DOT testing and if anyone looks that up and sees all that we went through to pass this testing they will see that we are providing a safe solution to lead acid. Aerovoltz batteries have a ceramic board in the bottom of the case where the cells have venting should they get over charged or have a dead short due to a circumstance in the aircraft. This will handle any temperature the battery cells can produce which is one of the key elements that enabled us to pass the UN-DOT testing to be safe for shipping and classified as a non-hazardous material. The lithium Iron Phosphate is the safest of lithium family and does not suffer the side effects of the polymer type batteries.

Cooler temperatures do affect every form of battery including lithium. However, with a slight warm up phase or usage of the battery it will come to life and provide sufficient power to start the engine as long as it was the right battery for the recommended applications. Some builders like to use just enough battery to get the job done and this fine as long as they stay above 30 F. When the engines get colder the oil gets thicker and things slow down, the same goes for a lead acid battery as well.

With regard to a battery management system this is a nice safeguard against damaging the battery from high and low voltage and these are available but they cost upward of 200.00 to manufacture one that will work as a start battery. We could easily install a BMS if the battery was going to just be used for electronics and not starting the engine, the pulse draw of the starter will fry any of the off the shelf BMS systems as they can handle the 300+ amp draw that is needed to start most engines.

Aircraft Spruce
 
mculver said:
Not trying to start anything, and most definitely not claiming expertise.

But my car runs on Lithium Ion batteries -- or at least that's what the manufacturer tells me. I haven't felt like a roast chicken yet, so at least at some level it seems like we should give the technology a chance.

Or is it that the danger is greater with a lithium-ion battery used to deliver hi-amp cranking energy vs powering a vehicle?

What type of batteries are the new crop of electric aircraft flying on? (Unless the use case makes my question irrelevant.)

I am fully aware of the propensity of some batteries to cause fires, and think that there's a huge difference between pulling the car over and descending from 17,500 ft.
Click to expand...

Mike,
By your statement above, I'm assuming that you drive a hybrid car. The issue is not that the batteries work, it's that the charging system in your car looks NOTHING like that used in conventional automobiles or our RVs. Your car has a BMS built into it.
Charlie
 
Aerovoltz

I have been using the Aerovoltz with an O-235 engine and it works perfectly. Never let me down even in very cold weather. My suggestion is to purchase the larger size battery as there really is not a weight penalty and also get the matched charger so you can occasionally balance the cells in the battery.

Rock On Aerovoltz - you saved me 10lb. on my build!:)
 
Once upon a time I spent a lot of time learning about battery chemistry and some of the hazards associated with the storage of electrons in high density packages. The folks at the US Navy Naval Surface Warfare Center Carderock Division Directorate for Safety were pretty good at sorting out the safety issues that are related to emerging battery technology. They have to be good at it because in many of the missions they support you only get one chance and it better be right.


Here is a link to a presentation that some of you may find interesting:
http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/afloat/Surface/CS/Lith_Batt.pdf



Phil
 
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