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Lycoming EIS vs Surefly

Phil Sprang

Phil Sprang

Well Known Member
Benefactor
I'm getting very close to ordering my engine, to beat the price increase.

On the Thunderbolt options list is dual Lycoming EIS or no ignition/fuel system.

I have a single SureFly SIM on my 182 and will go with a second one when approved.

So, my -14 will have either dual Lycoming EIS or dual SureFly SIM.

To my knowledge, the SureFly has a fixed or variable timing schedule and the Lycoming is only fixed.

If I go with SureFly, I'd have to order the engine with no ignition or fuel system and then piece meal it together.

Which way would you go? Why?
 
New Engine

I have an IO-360, 180 hp with two SureFly ignitions that works well.
If I were to buy a new engine, I would prefer it be test run by the manufacturer. So I would choose a complete engine. A turn key solution.
If there is a problem there is only one company to deal with.

Good Luck
 
River cat said:
I have a Lycoming YIO 360 twin Lycoming EIS, where do the leads from Dynon terminate for RPM
Click to expand...
You are going to need a Tach 2 signal converter (assuming the Lycoming ESI works the same as the Surefly).
The Tach Signal Converter (Tach2) converts SIM P-Lead signals to negative –going signals compatible with the Horizon P-1000 digital tachometer input and to a positive-going 0-5V square wave signal compatible with electronic tachometers that rely on a signal from a magnetic pickup inserted into a magneto.

Tach 2 can accept one or two SIM P-Leads as input, converts and conditions the signals and outputs them to corresponding output terminals. The Tach2 must be installed in the aircraft cabin and secured to the airframe with screws and nuts.
 
Phil Sprang said:
I'm getting very close to ordering my engine, to beat the price increase.

On the Thunderbolt options list is dual Lycoming EIS or no ignition/fuel system.

I have a single SureFly SIM on my 182 and will go with a second one when approved.

So, my -14 will have either dual Lycoming EIS or dual SureFly SIM.

To my knowledge, the SureFly has a fixed or variable timing schedule and the Lycoming is only fixed.

If I go with SureFly, I'd have to order the engine with no ignition or fuel system and then piece meal it together.

Which way would you go? Why?
Click to expand...
 
I live in Granbury, Tx- home of SureFly. The SureFly owners-developers are my Friends and Neighbors at Pecan Plantation 0TX1. The Lycoming unit is Exactly the Same unit as the SureFly— the Only difference is the Lycoming unit is powered coated Black. “ Take it to the bank”. Don Christiansen RV8 and Rans S 21
 
YellowBird1 said:
I live in Granbury, Tx- home of SureFly. The SureFly owners-developers are my Friends and Neighbors at Pecan Plantation 0TX1. The Lycoming unit is Exactly the Same unit as the SureFly— the Only difference is the Lycoming unit is powered coated Black. “ Take it to the bank”. Don Christiansen RV8 and Rans S 21
Click to expand...
Don, do you happen to know if "factory sealed" as stated in the mattress tag means thread locker?

Lyc EIS.jpg
 
I've installed quite a few of the Surefly ignitions on our customers airplane, and I have the Lycoming version on the Hummingbird Helicopter. For the experimental version, you can set it for variable timing. It seems to work very well. As stated, on the Lycoming version, for now they are set at fixed timing. It doesn't really matter in the helicopter as the engine is running at a constant 3200 RPM's in flight, and it doesn't fly as high as our RV's. :). I do think it would be nice to have the advance for idle, but in reality the engine on the helicopter spends very little time at idle or low power.
One difference I've noted between the two versions is that the experimental version skips a beat when doing the ignition check and then turning it back on. It's a little unnerving until you get used to it. The Lycoming version does not do that.

Vic
 
Lycoming EIS is a sealed unit with fixed timing only (very few exceptions). The biggest difference is with the Lycoming EIS you CANNOT use SureFly customer service and warranty. This policy is driven by Lycoming. Buy the SureFly so you are getting the latest and greatest with excellent service support.
 
pecanflyboy said:
Lycoming EIS is a sealed unit with fixed timing only (very few exceptions). The biggest difference is with the Lycoming EIS you CANNOT use SureFly customer service and warranty. This policy is driven by Lycoming. Buy the SureFly so you are getting the latest and greatest with excellent service support.
Click to expand...
Right there is a valuable detail!
 
Reading the above posts, I have to ask:
HOW is the Lycoming EIS sealed?
HOW can the end user break the seal and have the same as the SureFly unit?

My RV-8 project was planning a new engine from Van's with the EIS but if I cannot have access to all the SureFly features I need to rethink / replan this purchase.
 
Phil Sprang said:
If I go with SureFly, I'd have to order the engine with no ignition or fuel system and then piece meal it together.

Which way would you go? Why?
Click to expand...
Well, I would order without ign or fuel, and go full SDS System.

Why?? Super complete setup, easier to start either hot or cold. Able to run at really lean mixture.
 
Replying to close out the loop to my question posted almost two years ago. I went with dual P-Mags, but I still don't have my engine that I ordered way back then. Thanks for all the input.
 
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RV6_flyer said:
Reading the above posts, I have to ask:
HOW is the Lycoming EIS sealed?
HOW can the end user break the seal and have the same as the SureFly unit?

My RV-8 project was planning a new engine from Van's with the EIS but if I cannot have access to all the SureFly features I need to rethink / replan this purchase.
Click to expand...

The hardware that holds the unit together uses a tamperproof safety wire. If the unit is opened, you void the warranty. The Lycoming units are setup specifically for the engine on which they are installed and cannot be changed. Lycoming prevents access to the dip switches which allow you to change these settings. Even if you were able to break the seal, you would still not have access to SureFly tech support and you would void all warranty and service from Lycoming.

If you want to use this electronic ignition, I would suggest you buy the engine without the EIS, and then buy and install SureFly SIM's just before you fly. This way, you get the latest version and features, plus the ability to set up for variable or fixed timing. The technology is always improving..think iPhone.

$$
 
RV6_flyer said:
Reading the above posts, I have to ask:
HOW is the Lycoming EIS sealed?
HOW can the end user break the seal and have the same as the SureFly unit?

My RV-8 project was planning a new engine from Van's with the EIS but if I cannot have access to all the SureFly features I need to rethink / replan this purchase.
Click to expand...

The hardware that holds the unit together uses a tamperproof safety wire. If the unit is opened, you void the warranty. The Lycoming units are setup specifically for the engine on which they are installed and cannot be changed. Lycoming prevents access to the dip switches which allow you to change these settings. Even if you were able to break the seal, you would still not have access to SureFly tech support and you would void all warranty and service from Lycoming.

If you want to use this electronic ignition, I would suggest you buy the engine without the EIS, and then buy and install SureFly SIM's just before you fly. This way, you get the latest version and features, plus the ability to set up for variable or fixed timing. The technology is always improving..think iPhone.
River cat said:
How and where do Dynon HDX , RPM leads to the Lycoming EIS and do you need any other components
Click to expand...

This is a bit of, "was it the chicken or the egg that came first?" Magnetos were not designed to produce a tachometer signal. For decades we used a spinning cable from the accessory case as a tachometer input. As electronic displays became available, manufacturers found a convenient signal in the p-lead or in a Hall effect sensor on the magneto case to electronically interpret an RPM from the engine. Then they took it a step further to provide dual electronic RPM signals. Because an electronic ignition is always powered, the signal at the p-lead is different. The display manufacturers have yet to catch up. Some have developed a solution, while many have not.

Information on the SureFly website explains that the standard signal for an electronic tachometer is a 0--5Vdc square wave (except for the Horizon). The SIM has a 10-60Vdc signal at the p-lead. If your display does not support a SureFly and you want RPM from BOTH ignition systems, whether dual SureFly SIM's or a mix with magnetos, a module has been developed to turn the SureFly signal into a 0-5Vdc magneto signal. The TACH2, developed by SureFly, will provide a 0-5Vdc square wave or a Horizon signal from two separate SureFly SIMs. It's about the size of a deck of cards.

As mentioned, for about the same cost there is a UMA sender that is spun by the tach output on the accessory case, providing the same 0-5Vdc signal. This is my sensor of choice because it is sending my display tachometer information straight from the engine accessory case. It works very well.
 
I used a surefly on my Mooney with an Electronics International engine monitor. It hooks up the same as my previous electronic digital tach except I had to include a resistor in line. I had to try quite a few different ones before I found one that would work right. They come with a couple in the box and I had to find one even smaller to get the EI to pickup the sure fly. The EI unit requires a resistor in line for a regular magneto too.
 
River cat said:
So looking on Spruce it looks like two components a lead and a sensor is that correct
Click to expand...
Spruce has a listing that shows two different RPM sensors, there is T1A9 that is for a mag (the picture shows a lead), T1A3-4 that fits to the accessory case drive (there is no lead in the picture). I believe T1A3-4 comes with a plug and you will need to attach your own wires.

10-05334.jpg
 
PaulvS said:
Spruce has a listing that shows two different RPM sensors, there is T1A9 that is for a mag (the picture shows a lead), T1A3-4 that fits to the accessory case drive (there is no lead in the picture). I believe T1A3-4 comes with a plug and you will need to attach your own wires.

View attachment 54246
Click to expand...
Fitted a T1A3-4 following a Surefly installation. I like that the tach is now independent of the ignition system and the RPM display on the Dynon EMS seems to be more fluid than when it was coming from the P leads.
 
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