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The starter engages (delays) approx 5 secs after the key is turned to "start", why?

ao.frog

Well Known Member
The starter engages (delays) approx 5 secs after the key is turned to "start", why?

Hi gang.

I have a strange problem with the starter, and here's the details:

Lyc XIO-360, 40 hrs TT
Sky tech starter
Vans Master and Starter relay
Odyssey battery
ACS ignition key (OFF/L/R/BOTH)

Since the very first start, there has been a 2-3 sec delay from the moment I turn the key to "start" until the starter actually engages.

Gradually, the delay-time has increased to about 5 sec's.
During the start this weekend, the delay was suddenly about 10 secs.

Once the starter engaged, it spun the 360 as fast as ever.

The Odyssey battery was bought from Vans together with the engine and the FF-kit in 2010.

I'm wondering what can cause the starter to delay the engagement?
My first -7 has the same setup and have never had any delay at all, so there must be something strange going on somewhere?

Does anyone have a suggestion regarding the cause?
 
If you have a voltmeter, check the voltage to the starter relay. You want to see voltage at the input as soon as you turn the switch to START.

If you see voltage immediately, then attach the voltmeter to the output of the starter relay. Do the same test. Did you read voltage immediately as the switch was turned to start? If so, then the problem is at the starter. Otherwise, it is the starter solenoid.

Either the starter solenoid or the starter itself can show this symptom, or a bad connection. As an example: if the starter has a burned spot on an internal brush or armature surface, as the starting voltage reaches this spot, temporary high resistance is preventing full current flow but enough current is flowing to cause heat to build up and an arc may be forming. This will temporarily clean the spot and allow full operation of the circuit. It is only a matter of time before the device will completely fail.
 
The ACS key switch has screw terminals as I'm sure you know.

If one of those is loose it might cause the problem. I had similar (but not the same) problems. Seemed to be fixed when I discovered I had a screw loose.

:D
 
My guess is the starter relay. The key applies voltage to a winding. When engergized, this winding pulls the plunger with the contactor attached to make contact on the high amperage side. My guess is that you have burrs or some other defect in the assembly that is resisting the pulling force of the mageetism created by the winding. This would explain why it got worse.

Do you hear a solid click when turning the key? You should, if you are near the solenoid. Disconnect the starter feed and have someone turn the key while you listen and feel the solenoid. You are supposed to get an immediate, firm click as it engages. Good news is this is a $20 part.

Larry
 
An update

Thanks for the replies guys! Highly appreciated!

I've been at the hangar two days now, doing some checking, and here are the findings:

Day 1:
Volt at the battery with all switches OFF: 12.82
Volt at the battery with battery switch ON: 12.72
Volt on the IN-side of the Master relay: 12.62
Volt on the IN-side of the Starter relay: 12.41
Volt on the OUT-side of the Starter relay: 12.18 (key to "START" and wire to the starter disconnected)
Volt on the battery after a few tests with batt switch ON: 12.58

Day 2
Volt at the battery with all switches OFF: 13.03
Volt at the IN-side of the master relay: 12.52
Volt on the IN-side of the starter relay: 12.45


I noticed something strange:
I measured 00.01 volt on the OUT-side of the starter-relay with the starter switch i OFF-position.
I also measured a connection THROUGH the starter-relay with the starter switch on the OFF position: the ohm indicated 6,5 - 7,0 ohm.
I also got a "beeeep" when turning the multimeter selector to the loudspeaker symbol.

Day 1:
During the very first time I turned the key to "START", there where a 3-4 sec delay before the firm click came from the starter relay.
All other times the key where turned after that, the click came right away.
The starter relay where JUST a little warm to touch after testing.

Day 2:
The click came right away when the key where turned to "START".
Same result during the next few start-attempts: click came right away.

All connections where tight and looked normal.

My thoughts are towards the starter relay. Anyone have other thoughts?
I think it's strange that there where a connection through the starter relay in disengaged position?
It'd be great if someone else could check their starter relays for ohm and beep in disengaged position and post their findings here?

I think I'll order a new starter relay if someone else doesn't have a better idea?


PS: I can't honestly say that my volt-meter shows 100% correct values, but the relationship beetween the different readings schould be fairly accurate.

Thanks guys!
 
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Is your ACS starter switched wired directly to the starter solenoid? Skytec states that the switch must be rated for 20A and specifically warns against using the ACS switch which is rated at 6A.

I had a similar issue and took the ACS switch apart to install the rebuild kit from Spruce. The points were burned and caused a delay like you are experiencing and even made it feel like a weak battery. They suggest adding another solenoid.

The way yours is probably wired is shown in this link
http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp HT Wiring_1100.jpg

The way to wire it with the ACS switch
http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Certified HT Wiring_1100.jpg

TJ
 
Check Ground Also

Like TJ said, it is quite likely the ACS switch. However, I'll post my two cents.

I had a similar problem with my starter relay not engaging, and a couple of times it appeared stuck on with NO power applied. Hmmmm. I use toggle switches, not a keyed switch.

My latest theory is that the case of the starter relay did not have a good ground path. That's my fault for a poor installation. If the ground path is high resistance, you get a weak and slow pull which can cause arcing.

Don't know how much you know about electricity, but if you were to have a bad grounding path you would measure input voltage at the "S" terminal of the relay, but there would be no current flow, and little or no magic electromagnetism happening.

I'm not saying this is your issue, but the ground path is another thing to check.

Don
 
I had a similar issue a few years back after around a year in service. Exactly those symptoms. I bought a new contactor. I went to install and found the nut holding the 2AWG starter cable to the starter contacto had come loose, and backed off a few mm. It had then arc welded itself there. So the nut was tight but the terminal was loose.
Tightened up and been good ever since.
Still have a spare contactor for when it fails properly!
 
Bypass the keyswitch and try it. Also check volt drop across the keyswitch running a small load like a light bulb.
 
Not that the others haven't listed good things, but..

I had a similar problem and found this inside my SkyTec starter.

Skytec_Starter_01.jpg


It was close enough it would work most times. But sometimes it wouldn't... what a pain those problems are.
 
Thanks for the replies guys! Highly appreciated!

I've been at the hangar two days now, doing some checking, and here are the findings:

Day 1:
Volt at the battery with all switches OFF: 12.82
Volt at the battery with battery switch ON: 12.72
Volt on the IN-side of the Master relay: 12.62
Volt on the IN-side of the Starter relay: 12.41
Volt on the OUT-side of the Starter relay: 12.18 (key to "START" and wire to the starter disconnected)
Volt on the battery after a few tests with batt switch ON: 12.58

Day 2
Volt at the battery with all switches OFF: 13.03
Volt at the IN-side of the master relay: 12.52
Volt on the IN-side of the starter relay: 12.45


I noticed something strange:
I measured 00.01 volt on the OUT-side of the starter-relay with the starter switch i OFF-position.
I also measured a connection THROUGH the starter-relay with the starter switch on the OFF position: the ohm indicated 6,5 - 7,0 ohm.
I also got a "beeeep" when turning the multimeter selector to the loudspeaker symbol.

Day 1:
During the very first time I turned the key to "START", there where a 3-4 sec delay before the firm click came from the starter relay.
All other times the key where turned after that, the click came right away.
The starter relay where JUST a little warm to touch after testing.

Day 2:
The click came right away when the key where turned to "START".
Same result during the next few start-attempts: click came right away.

All connections where tight and looked normal.

My thoughts are towards the starter relay. Anyone have other thoughts?
I think it's strange that there where a connection through the starter relay in disengaged position?
It'd be great if someone else could check their starter relays for ohm and beep in disengaged position and post their findings here?

I think I'll order a new starter relay if someone else doesn't have a better idea?


PS: I can't honestly say that my volt-meter shows 100% correct values, but the relationship beetween the different readings schould be fairly accurate.

Thanks guys!

Your testing confirmations my primary suspicion, as I outlined above. Replace the solenoid (stand-alone, correct?) and all should be fine. If problems persist, report those and we can explore the next likely cause.

Without knowing what terminals gave you the 6.5 ohms, I can't say for sure. I would not expect any resistance across the contactor at rest, IF the cables are removed. If not, you could be picking up resistance across a circuit in the wiring.
 
it's the Skytec solenoid

It's most likely the solenoid on the Skytec starter. I had the identical symptom on mine soon after installing an overhauled starter. After sending it back to Skytec, they told me that they had a bad batch of solenoids with a manufacturing defect (burr) that prevented or slowed the movement of the plunger which activates the contactor and moves the pinion gear. Replaced the solenoid and all has been good for ~3 years now.

Heinrich
 
It's most likely the solenoid on the Skytec starter. I had the identical symptom on mine soon after installing an overhauled starter. After sending it back to Skytec, they told me that they had a bad batch of solenoids with a manufacturing defect (burr) that prevented or slowed the movement of the plunger which activates the contactor and moves the pinion gear. Replaced the solenoid and all has been good for ~3 years now.

Heinrich

This is good to examine as well. You likely have two solenoids. The stand alone one that I thought we were discussing, as well as the solenoid on the starter. I don't know if you followed my recommendation, but you should. Pull the cable from the solenoid to the starter and test for delays in clicks. If none, reconnect the cable and try again. this should tell you which solenoid is hanging up. Best to do this before replacing parts.

Larry
 
Some replies

Thanks for the input guys.

Here are some replies to your questions and suggestions:

The wiring is as depicted on the "certified" drawing:
In other words it's like it schould be with the ACS switch.

Ground path: we've installed a separate ground wire with the same size as the starter wire (#2 awg I think?)
This wire is installed on one of the four bolts holding the starter onto the engine. The other end of the wire is connected to battery negative.

Ohm: the 6.5 - 7 ohm where measured across the two big terminals on the starter relay. I didn't think of measuring the ohm across the two small terminals.

Sky Tech solenoid: I didn't think of the built in solenoid in the starter, but since the delay where still present when the starter-power wire where disconnected at the starter relay, my thoughts are towards the starter relay for now.
Therefore, I've ordered a new one from Vans and it's on it's way over here.

My plan is to install the new starter relay when it gets here. I'll also open the old relay and look for burned contactors inside. That'll be interesting! I'll post results and pics when it's done.

BTW: on startup today, the starter engaged right away when the key where turned. That was the VERY FIRST TIME the starter had zero delay since the very first start a few months ago.
That made me very happy, but a few mins later, my happiness faded away: we'd to turn back right after t/o due to engine roughness. That episode is described in another post here on the forum, so that's another story....
 
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Update

Hi guys.

This is an update to the tread I started a while back:

Two things has happened since then:

1) I have replaced the starter relay but the delay is still there.

2) The delay has gradually became longer: now it's 13-15 secs.

Therefore, I have decided it's time to get to the bottom of this once and for all. Today, I did some more checking and here's the results:

Immediately when the starter relay "clicks", there's power on the out side of the starter relay and the starter turns the engine.

When I manually put 12V onto the starter wire, the starter immediately turns the engine.

Therefore, it seems to me that the starter and the starter relay is OK.

I measured the volts on the little terminal on the starter relay which receives power from the ignition switch through a small wire.
I guess that's the terminal who makes the starter relay engage when you turn the key.
(I have the A-510-2 ignition switch)

There I discovered something strange: when I turned the key to "start", the volt on the little terminal showed 9,2V and then slowly started to increase. After approx 15 secs, the volt read 10,5 and didn't go further. (the starter key was held in "Start" position all the time)

Then I made a new wire, and connected it from the terminal of the ignition switch and to the little terminal of the starter relay.
The result was the same: approx 9,2V when the key was turned to "start" and held there. The volt climbed slowly to 10.5 and stopped.

Finally, I took a wire and connected it directly from + on battery to the little terminal on the starter relay, and now the volt read 12,0 right away and stayed there.

Based on these new findings, I'm thinking the fault is within the A-510 ignition switch. It seems to me that 9,2V on the little terminal shows that somewhere from the ignition switch and to the little terminal, there's some resistance who "steals" the volt.
The wire from the ignition switch and the little terminal is short, so I doubt the fault is there.
That leaves me with a faulty 510 ignition switch.

Before ordering a new one, I'm wondering if any of you have some other ideas?

Thanks.

regards Alf Olav
 
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The ignition switch is the first place I would have looked for trouble. They have a well-deserved reputation for unreliable contacts. If you are feeling a little adventurous, throw out the ACS key switch and go with individual toggle switches for your mags and a push-button for the starter.

By the way, if your ignition switch contacts are bad, be VERY careful because your magneto P-Lead contacts in that same switch body may very well not be making reliable contact. Please be very careful as your ignition may be "live" even with the key removed from the switch.
 
Dont know about that ignition switch but some are designed to be "push to Start" switch. I know I have one that is designed so that turning the switch to start does not power the starter solenoid. I requires a push on the key to do that. Not sure who the mfg is.
 
I had an issue with my ignition switch in which the mags were not grounded in the OFF position (switch was from Spruce, and made by a Spruce affiliate) and they swore up and down their switches NEVER have problems. They got it back and tested it and said it worked fine. I asked, and was sent, a new switch which worked perfectly with no other changes on my end.
I wouldn't trust the quality of those switches
 
Hi guys.

This is an update to the tread I started a while back:

Two things has happened since then:

1) I have replaced the starter relay but the delay is still there.

2) The delay has gradually became longer: now it's 13-15 secs.

Therefore, I have decided it's time to get to the bottom of this once and for all. Today, I did some more checking and here's the results:

Immediately when the starter relay "clicks", there's power on the out side of the starter relay and the starter turns the engine.

When I manually put 12V onto the starter wire, the starter immediately turns the engine.

Therefore, it seems to me that the starter and the starter relay is OK.

I measured the volts on the little terminal on the starter relay which receives power from the ignition switch through a small wire.
I guess that's the terminal who makes the starter relay engage when you turn the key.
(I have the A-510-2 ignition switch)

There I discovered something strange: when I turned the key to "start", the volt on the little terminal showed 9,2V and then slowly started to increase. After approx 15 secs, the volt read 10,5 and didn't go further. (the starter key was held in "Start" position all the time)

Then I made a new wire, and connected it from the terminal of the ignition switch and to the little terminal of the starter relay.
The result was the same: approx 9,2V when the key was turned to "start" and held there. The volt climbed slowly to 10.5 and stopped.

Finally, I took a wire and connected it directly from + on battery to the little terminal on the starter relay, and now the volt read 12,0 right away and stayed there.

Based on these new findings, I'm thinking the fault is within the A-510 ignition switch. It seems to me that 9,2V on the little terminal shows that somewhere from the ignition switch and to the little terminal, there's some resistance who "steals" the volt.
The wire from the ignition switch and the little terminal is short, so I doubt the fault is there.
That leaves me with a faulty 510 ignition switch.

Before ordering a new one, I'm wondering if any of you have some other ideas?

Thanks.

regards Alf Olav

Hei Alf,

If you want to "prove" it is not the wired from the switch to the contactor ... run your good 12V test feed directly on the wire connected to the ACS starter switch ... or even simpler .. just jump the switch input ... to the switch output ... the engine should start to crank immediately ... That will show that the terminals in the switch have a high resistance .. giving you the voltage drop ... When you replace the switch .... open it up and take some photos of the internals ...

One other thing .. do you have a fly back diode fitted on your starter contact coil ? I assume you do ... but if you do not .. that will cause the starter switch contact points to deteriorate quickly .... Just a thought ...

Jan
 
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I to am having SkyTec Starter engagement delays. I also use the same key starter switch from ACS. I returned the starter to them and while they said it was fine I had them do a rebuild to update it. Upon reinstall it still delays. I can hear the relay on the starter "click" but no rotation at first. My Battery voltage shows a drop from about 12.3 v to 11.2-11.5 v. If I hold the key ofter the starter engages. Occasionally it will not engage even after holding for about 15 seconds. If I hold it and someone carefully moves the prop it usually engages and will engage after that sometimes. SkyTec suggested I run a wire directly from the starter terminal to the cockpit and when it does not engage put a volt meter on it and read the volts. They think I'm getting low voltage at the starter. I am also going to read some readings at the key and at the A/C starter relay. :)
 
A simple thing to check -One area that can cause problems is if you have not removed the paint from the engine where you attached the earth lead - found that sort of issue many years ago :)
 
I just recently had the solenoid that is attatched to the starter fail, and it showed the same symptoms---- a drop in voltage but no engagement of the starter.

Vic
 
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