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Build time after wings and fuselage

Hi all,

I'm guessing I'm about halfway through the wings now (it seems like I've been halfway for better part of a year, but that's another story...), and I'm allowing myself to think about what the next phase of the project will look like. I've seen a lot of threads discussing the slow build vs quick build fuselage and feel like I've got a pretty good handle on the differences, but I feel like I haven't gotten a good feel for what happens after that.

For the most part, I've enjoyed building the wings, and I'm excited about the variation on the fuselage, so I'm leaning toward slow build. But I see several estimates of about 400ish hours for the wings and 500ish hours for the fuselage, so along with a 100 hours or so on the empennage, that sounds like about 1000 hours by the time the fuselage is done. Obviously, then you've got canopy, engine, avionics, prop, etc., but I then see people saying it took them 2500 to 3000 hours to finish their aircraft.

Do the steps after the fuselage really entail 2000 more hours of build time? Or is there just a disconnect between what people are logging or their build styles? I'm just wondering if I'm hitting the target to be done with the wings in around 400-450 hours, what have others experienced for total time at that pace?
 
Tail done, wings closed, fuselage on the gear is what I consider half done. Canopy, cowling, firewall forward wiring, plumbing, panel and all the glass work makes up the other half. This does not include primer and paint.
 
I spent 250 hrs on the *&^%$ sliding canopy. YMMV. I'm pleased with the result, but working with floppy tubing, delicate plexiglass and aligning the tracks and roll bar are different skills with different materials. After the empennage, the wings and fuselage are more or less just more riveting, which by that time you're good at.
 
Completion schedule and budget

When you?ve driven the last rivet, you are halfway done to being airworthy

Sorry to burst a bubble!

What say other builders?
 
This is all good to know. When I decide whether to go QB or SB, it helps to have some idea of what comes after. Don?t know that it tips the scale yet for me, but it sounds like the post fuselage is a lot more than I might have expected.

Other than the canopy, where is the most time spent? Glass? Wiring? I know a lot depends on what you pick, but still be interested to hear how it broke down for everybody.
 
Other than the canopy, where is the most time spent? Glass? Wiring? I know a lot depends on what you pick, but still be interested to hear how it broke down for everybody.

Head scratching on minor details takes an amazing amount of time. Where do I put the headset jacks? How do I route the wires? Multiply that decision times a hundred others on wiring and FWF. Then add "massaging" things for fit and finish. You can spend a lifetime getting all of your gaps right, getting that fiberglass, those windows, and your airframe to fit together well.
 
One bite at a time

I think Vans put it all in perspective: ?average? build time 2000 hours, unless you have an engineering background and then it?s going to take you about 2500 hours.

Mine took about 2600 hours to complete on a slow build kit. Wiring and avionics will take a considerable amount of time if you make your own harness and of course it depends on the complexity of your system. Fiberglass, arghhh!! Sand and fill, and sand and fill, and sand and fill. Cowling, canopy skirt, windshield fairing, and wheel pants will take a while if you want them to look good when painted.

The good news is that when you get her done, you?ll have a sweet magic carpet ride. Press on and eat that elephant one bite at a time. It?s well worth it.

Motivational image :D
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I recently got an airworthiness certificate for N47HM, a Vans RV-7A, built with a team of students at Harvey Mudd College over 3 years. We found that the empennage and slow-build wings and fuselage comprised slightly less than 50% of the build time. Major time-consuming steps after the airframe included the canopy, firewall forward, electrical, cowling, system debug, and creating the Pilots operating handbook. As the plane gets closed up, small steps start to take a long time because access is more difficult. Just torquing the wing bolts and fitting the little washers between the control stick and aileron pushrods took more time than I could have believed. The documentation also becomes much skimpier so there is a lot of time figuring out how to do steps and sourcing parts. After airworthiness, there has also been significant further work troubleshooting systems during initial test and building the fairings.

Enjoy the build!

David
 
I think Vans put it all in perspective: “average” build time 2000 hours, unless you have an engineering background and then it’s going to take you about 2500 hours.

Van's estimates 1400-1500 hours for an -8, presumably due to the matched hole design, for a "basic" airplane. I understand that's best case scenario, but 2000 hours is a 25% increase...pretty big wag. Not doubting it, just a little surprised that's the lowball number.

Head scratching on minor details takes an amazing amount of time. Where do I put the headset jacks? How do I route the wires?

I don't really count the head scratching time in the build. Between work and family obligations, the time I have that is limited is shop time, so by the time I've got the compressor spooled up I usually have a very distinct plan for the steps I'm going to accomplish on a given day. I can do ten hours of head scratching looking at plans or catalogs in a hotel room without batting an eye.

Wiring and avionics will take a considerable amount of time if you make your own harness

This is an area where I think I'd be willing to outsource. I don't feel the need to make my own harness. I outsourced some priming already (wing ribs and parts).

I think my struggle is with whether I'll feel like I got what I wanted to out of the build if I go QB fuselage. There are some things I just have no interest in doing and am happy to farm out--exterior painting, for instance. Zero desire to do that myself. I'd probably farm out a lot of the fiberglass work if I could. But it seems like the one place where I could trade money for time is the fuselage, and I actually really look forward to that part. The canopy? Not so much. No QB canopy option, though!

Motivational image

And a beautiful one it is!
 
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I took about 2 months for the empennage, then 6 months on the wings. Just the major structure stuff, not the fiberglass tips and bottom wing skins. The fuselage took about a year and a half to get to the quickbuild stage. So total time up to this point was more than 2 years, 2 months. I was flying at 4.5 years, so that would mean 50% was the airframe, and 50% was the finish kit, avionics, engine, etc. The canopy is the point where after it was done, I thought I was on the downhill stretch of the build. The canopy is the true test of the build. I think I worked on and off of it for about a year, while doing other tasks also. If you really want to speed up the last 50% of the build, then stick completely to plans for the firewall forward Van's provided engine and prop, along with picking out all of the electronics and avionics well in advance of actually needing them. Any deviation or customizations will cost you a lot of time in the build.
 
This got me thinking about what it is possible to outsource in the build. Ultimately, the QB fuselage or wings is doing that--trading money for time to have somebody else do a part of the build that maybe you don't want to do. Carlos151 talked about "doing your own wiring harness"--I've gathered that's something you can hire out to SteinAir for a fee, along with some/all of the panel fabrication. How much time does/could that save?

I accept that I can't really outsource the canopy, and maybe after I do it, I'll be glad to say I did it myself. I remember seeing past entries where people outsourced tank construction, and I was a little disappointed that didn't really seem to be an option anymore. But now that I'm getting ready for the final assembly and gotten my Semco plan put together, I'm glad I decided to tackle it myself.

That all said, I'd be interested to hear where people have chosen to exchange money for time. I didn't need a pneumatic squeezer, but I think it has saved me dozens of hours already. Other than the QB kits, where has everybody outsourced part of the build or spent money to save time?
 
A lot of discussion on “wiring harnesses”, outsourcing, buying the associated kits and such.

My experience on 3 builds and wiring an RV-14A for a buddy - running wires is not hard if you sit down with a stubby pencil and paper and document the wire runs. Ignore the behind the panel stuff as that is done after you have completed the panel (or if you must buy a panel).

My point, the most frustrated job was on the RV-14A as I found the wiring kits to be both unnecessarily complicated (too many Molex connectors) and in some instances replacing wire runs with shielded wire, and then making the store bought avionics panel mate up to it all.

I offer that with some thought and perhaps a consult or two with an experience builder you will find running your own wires to be cheaper, lighter and yield what you want. I also offer if you do this work yourself you will have the in-depth knowledge and documentation when it comes time to do a mod or panel upgrade. Assume you will - my first RV-8A (18 years young) is on its fifth panel. Replacing a panel is not hard, just $26 of aluminum, some time cutting holes, nut plates and paint.

Shoot fire - for that matter I never use the firewall forward kits for my planes. After I change out the oil cooler, the prop governor, the alternator and such to what I want there is little reason to get it.

Once you go through the pain to get the canopy and all the fiberglass ready for paint you will find wiring to be much more rewarding.

Carl
 
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Enjoy it!

Pretty much everything that I read that said "that's no fun" or "that's hard" I actually enjoyed. If you are not looking forward to the canopy, I'd say "dive in" - you may enjoy it. I really did, even though it scared me before I started it.

Same with the windscreen. Same with canopy skirts. Same with all the fiberglass. After reading, looking at other RVs, asking questions here and there, it all became much clearer.

Wiring - I barely knew how to replace a lightbulb, but read Bob's book and other forums. It was one of my most enjoyable parts of the project, and knowledge that I've used a lot since, and probably saved 100s if not 1000s on other projects around the house and at work due to this understanding.

There are now more and more videos directly related to building RVs, and I know the Van's video on the canopy fairing was really helpful to me.

The area that I didn't do, and don't regret, is the paint. Perhaps on my next build!
 
Wiring - I barely knew how to replace a lightbulb, but read Bob's book and other forums. It was one of my most enjoyable parts of the project, and knowledge that I've used a lot since, and probably saved 100s if not 1000s on other projects around the house and at work due to this understanding.

I think on a project this scale it's all about balance. You could easily argue that I'm "cheating" by having the punched holes on the RV-8 as opposed to the jigs on the RV-4. In hindsight, I enjoyed figuring out how to get the inboard leading edge ribs aligned and drilled without the punched holes, even including the fact that I had to order a 2nd set to get it up to my expectations. That said, I'm glad I'm not doing the whole plane that way. I enjoy the knowledge, but also want to fly the thing before I die (and I'm only 40!).

There's almost always a way to make the project more challenging, and there's always something to be learned by doing so. But it's also nice to know when you get to something and say, "you know what, I've had enough of this particular task", you can also farm some of it out. Like I said, I hate painting. I hate painting my house, I hate painting the walls, I hate painting watercolors with my kids. So I prime as best I can and am comfortable with, but I just accepted right from the get go that I wasn't going to do the exterior paint on the plane. I'm sure there's lots to learn--I just don't want to spend my efforts there. If given the choice between either the QB fuselage or hiring the painter, I'd take the painter every day of the week. But it's good to know what's available.
 
It's not about the destination but about the journey

Jeremy, there's plenty of stuff you can outsource. It sounds like you're in a hurry to get your airplane done and flying. That's understandable and as you already know, there are days when you will see little progress after working many hours but then the flip side is that there are days where you see a lot of progress after little time. You get the "ahaa" moment when you see the whole airplane taking shape. It's not about the destination but about the journey. Life gets in the way of building airplanes and that's why it takes some of us a little longer to build. Bring your family into the project. My wife is not a pilot, engineer or aircraft builder but she helped on the back side of a bucking bar or on the rivet gun when my arms were not long enough to reach. That's why I named my aircraft "La Otra Chica", (the other girl) because I spent so much time with her, and my wife remains La Chica.

I'm with Carl on the wiring harness. It's not that complicated, it just takes time. I thoroughly enjoyed it and those EE classes I took back at Boat School came back to me. Bob Knuckolls' book is a great resource; I didn't want to reinvent the wheel so I took one of his wiring diagrams with some minor changes. Yes, Stein, and others, have some great wiring harnesses and it will save you time but cost you $$. In my opinion, it's a whole lot more fun doing your own wiring, flipping the switch, and it all comes to life as advertised. A multi-meter is all you need.

You have to figure out YOUR break even point. I went with the slow build project because I was not in a hurry to get it done and I figured the $10k or so saved would go a long way for a nice motor. I also wanted to have an inverted fuel system and different fuel caps which were not an option on the quick build wings. You can probably add or modify anything on a quick build fuselage as much as a slow build. Nobody will fault you for going with a quick build anything. Like it's been said many times on this forum, build the airplane you want, not the one someone else wants you to build.

Fiberglass for me was challenging albeit easy to work with. By the time I was done, I was pretty proud of what I had accomplished and would feel confident tackling any fiberglass project. Not that I want to build a plastic airplane but it's a learnable skill.

All that being said, you also have to figure out YOUR limitations. I knew that after spending all this time building my aircraft, I was going to take it to the pros for a nice paint job. I suck at painting and the extent of my limitations don't go past applying primer. I did fly her naked for a year before taking her to GLO Custom for the paint job you saw in the picture. Another section where I knew I personally needed to trust the pros was with the engine. There are many folks who build their own motors, I'm just not one of them. I felt very comfortable installing alternators, prop and prop governor, inverted oil system, sensors, and hoses external to the motor. I'll leave the internals to the pros.

Build on and enjoy the journey.
 
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I'm (obviously) at home and watching the kids, so forgive me for beating a dead horse.

Jeremy, there's plenty of stuff you can outsource. It sounds like you're in a hurry to get your airplane done and flying.

Not really eager to get flying. I fly for a living (or, at least, I hope I still do come fall), so I get my flight fix and don't have an urgent need to get in the air. I am more concerned about losing motivation. Learning new things is fun, but I admit that I'm 3/4 of the way through dimpling wing skins and I'd be happy to be done with that for a while.

Bring your family into the project. My wife is not a pilot, engineer or aircraft builder but she helped on the back side of a bucking bar or on the rivet gun when my arms were not long enough to reach.

My wife's a wonderful woman, but unfortunately she doesn't have any interest in participating in the project--at all. I think the kids will get involved but at 3 and 5, they can't do much more than ask questions. It's great as a teaching tool, and one of my great motivations to make the airplane complete is to show my kids what you can do if you dedicate yourself to something, but they won't be on the other side of a bucking bar any time soon.

Bob Knuckolls' book is a great resource; I didn't want to reinvent the wheel so I took one of his wiring diagrams with some minor changes.

I've got the book and am a bit of an electronics nerd, so my gut is that I'm going to end up doing the harness. I think just knowing, though, that if I get fed up six years from now about the project that a shortcut is at least on the table.

Fiberglass for me was challenging albeit easy to work with.

I'd really like to take the EAA fiberglass class, because I'm not comfortable working with it and have so far avoided it. It seems like it's only offered once a year in Philadelphia, though, during November which is usually a really hard time of year for me to take time off or be away from my family. I've watched videos but it's just not the same as hands-on. I wish the SportAir workshops were more frequent and more geographically dispersed--you'd think being halfway between two major American cities (New York and Boston) would make it easy to find a class.

Build on and enjoy the journey.

I appreciate the feedback and thoughts, and honestly being stuck in the house for the better part of a month has made me just eager to chat about the project. Time to get back to dimpling wing skins!
 
Not really eager to get flying. I fly for a living (or, at least, I hope I still do come fall), so I get my flight fix and don't have an urgent need to get in the air. I am more concerned about losing motivation.

Yup, I fly for a living too (I hope anyway :confused: ), but you will soon find out that flying your RV is not the same as flying a CAT III approach in 300 RVR. This is going to be WAY more fun. It's probably the closest I will ever get to the fast movers I flew in the Navy. Fun to do aerobatics and formation flying again.

I wish the SportAir workshops were more frequent

Could not agree more. I took the RV Builders SportAir workshop in Lakeland before I started on my RV8. Well worth the money spent. I would love to take their welding course but like you mentioned, it's only available a couple of times a year in less and less locations. I guess with the wealth of knowledge on the internet, less and less folks want to go to these workshops. Don't know, but I wish it was different.

One of the resources I used when it came to fiberglass is the Aircraft Fiberglass 101 DVD by Sam James. In two hours you will get a wealth of knowledge. I watched it several times. The EAA videos are good too with some nice tips that will save you $$ along the way. The one I can remember is using heavy duty hair spray as a release agent for fiberglass molds. Works great and it a lot less $$ than the "aviation" release.

I remember dimpling wings and ribs. I get it, it gets old. I was extremely happy when I purchased my pneumatic squeezer because as you know it accelerates the process immensely. I think when you get to the fuselage there seems to be a greater variety of tasks to complete. Instructions get less and less and the airplane becomes more and more yours. All of us lost some kind of motivation along the way. IMHO it's good to put the project aside for a bit and then dive back in when you've recharged.

Best of luck and I look forward to seeing your airplane in the "first flight" section.
 
Is it practical to outsource the (slider) canopy work?

I wouldn’t assume so.

The canopy work itself is less concerning to me than the potential to be 150 hours into it and then crack it. I don’t know enough about this step for certain, but I’m guessing you basically start over if that happens?

Setting aside the cost, the morale hit of having to go back to square one is pretty harsh. And shipping to Connecticut from Oregon doesn’t help.

I find a lot of the mundane tasks kind of Zen. That sort of contradicts what I said earlier (everything gets old), but going out in the garage and deburring or dimpling are relaxing in the right dose. But the stress of making a mistake with a high dollar part, like the spars or the canopy, make me wish there was a little less of that part. If I FUBAR a $13 rib, oh well.
 
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I think Vans put it all in perspective: ?average? build time 2000 hours, unless you have an engineering background and then it?s going to take you about 2500 hours.

It's funny because it's true...

Honestly I have no idea how many hours I've wored on my build so far. I'm getting into systems fabrication and installation and the visual progress has slowed way down, since now there's a lot more "on your own" work, and doubly so with non-standard systems (e.g. EFI).

My biggest challenge is finding time to work on it with a 4 year old.
 
Sorry i can read

I am sorry I ever read this thread. So how much time saved with a whiskey compass, airspeed indicator, altimeter, mechanical tach and Vans fuel gauges instead of G3x suite?
 
I am sorry I ever read this thread. So how much time saved with a whiskey compass, airspeed indicator, altimeter, mechanical tach and Vans fuel gauges instead of G3x suite?

Sorry John, but your requirements are going to add about 500 hours to your build time. That “special” whiskey for your compass is a 20 year aged variety. The airspeed and altimeter now operate on unobtanium vacuum systems, mechanical tachs have no mechanics to work on them, and those Vans fuel gauges work on a complicated pulley and pushrod system that has sadly been discontinued. ;)
 
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Karl isn?t wrong, it?s getting harder and harder to find people willing to work on steam gauges.
 
Sorry John, but your requirements are going to add about 500 hours to your build time. That ?special? whiskey for your compass is a 20 year aged variety. The airspeed and altimeter now operate on unobtanium vacuum systems, mechanical tachs have no mechanics to work on them, and those Vans fuel gauges work on a complicated pulley and pushrod system that has sadly been discontinued. ;)

Don't underestimate the time to wire the modern EFIS. Instead of 2 wires for power and ground, the modern EFIS requires all kinds of data wires. It usually takes me a few hours to make one run of the Dynon Skyview network cable. Instead of dealing with 2 wires, now I have get 9 wires, 18 crimps, 2 DB9 connectors before one radio can talk to the EFIS. Now repeat this process for the next avionic box. I am not getting to the 25-pin and 37-pin connectors yet. This modern stuff is easy but it takes a lot of work.
 
Don't underestimate the time to wire the modern EFIS. Instead of 2 wires for power and ground, the modern EFIS requires all kinds of data wires. It usually takes me a few hours to make one run of the Dynon Skyview network cable. Instead of dealing with 2 wires, now I have get 9 wires, 18 crimps, 2 DB9 connectors before one radio can talk to the EFIS. Now repeat this process for the next avionic box. I am not getting to the 25-pin and 37-pin connectors yet. This modern stuff is easy but it takes a lot of work.

Nobody said it was easy, been there, done that. You obviously missed the jovial sarcastic mockery of my response to John.

Sorry John, but your requirements are going to add about 500 hours to your build time. That ?special? whiskey for your compass is a 20 year aged variety. The airspeed and altimeter now operate on unobtanium vacuum systems, mechanical tachs have no mechanics to work on them, and those Vans fuel gauges work on a complicated pulley and pushrod system that has sadly been discontinued. ;)
 
KWMoser

Bought and RV-8 partially complete, that is all riveting done. Took 2200 hours to complete from that point to do all the things you mention, but it was fun and worth the effort!
 
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