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IFR questions

K

Keith Williams

Well Known Member
I have finished the fuselage kit and am waiting for the finish kit. While waiting I have been thinking about the panel. I plan to license the RV12 as EAB. I want to build it just once, with several changes from plans ? mostly things I have picked up here

My questions are about IFR. I am thinking of replacing the SL40 with a GPS/COM (GTN635 or GNC420W) and adding backups (Dynon D-6 and panel mounted handheld com).

I have been flying IFR (sort of) in an RV6 I finished in 1999. It has steam gauges, two nav/coms, IFR enroute GPS and Tru Trak autopilot. I say ?sort of? IFR because I have set high limits, basically using the rating to fly in marginal VFR and to get through cloud layers. That said, three questions:

1. I have zero experience with WAAS GPS operations. But would like to simplify things by just using waypoints, instead of figuring out where I am using the CDI/OBS, dials and needles. Do those of you with WAAS GPS experience see a problem with omitting the VOR receiver for the flying I have described?
2. Is a heated pitot really needed? I have one on the RV6 but the IFR Cherokee 140 I owned for 12 years before building the RV6 didn?t. Just wondering. I do not fly IMC in below freezing temps so ice is not an issue.
3. Would I need to make changes in the 912ULS? I am wondering what is different about the 912S which is certified and used in IFR aircraft.
4. Can someone point me to suggestions for a good way to mount the handheld com? My plan is to fly the EAB test hours with just the handheld before buying the IFR stuff. I want to get some experience in the 12 to see how I feel about IFR in it. (If IFR does not feel right I will just buy the SL40).

I really appreciate the help with the project you all have provided on this forum. Thanks in advance for any suggestions on these questions.

Keith W.
MIlan, IL
 
Keith Williams said:
My questions are about IFR. I am thinking of replacing the SL40 with a GPS/COM (GTN635 or GNC420W) and adding backups (Dynon D-6 and panel mounted handheld com).

I have been flying IFR (sort of) in an RV6 I finished in 1999. It has steam gauges, two nav/coms, IFR enroute GPS and Tru Trak autopilot. I say ?sort of? IFR because I have set high limits, basically using the rating to fly in marginal VFR and to get through cloud layers. That said, three questions:
Click to expand...

You may want to take a look at the TruTrak Gemini PFD as a back up. Quite a bit smaller and lighter than the D-6. Depending on when you'll be ready to fly, you may want to look at the Gemini 880 for an AP.

Keith Williams said:
1. I have zero experience with WAAS GPS operations. But would like to simplify things by just using waypoints, instead of figuring out where I am using the CDI/OBS, dials and needles. Do those of you with WAAS GPS experience see a problem with omitting the VOR receiver for the flying I have described?
Click to expand...

The new Garmins 6xx and 7xx have not only the VORs in the database, but also the victor airways. You clearly want a 6xx over a 4xx. I put a 650 in my RV-10. In many parts of the country, you'll be expected to fly on the airways and not direct. You are still going to need to use the CDI on your EFIS to indicate course.

Keith Williams said:
2. Is a heated pitot really needed? I have one on the RV6 but the IFR Cherokee 140 I owned for 12 years before building the RV6 didn?t. Just wondering. I do not fly IMC in below freezing temps so ice is not an issue.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't fly in IMC without one, but that is a part of my personal minimums. You can experience icing in the clouds when the temps aren't freezing on the ground.

Keith Williams said:
3. Would I need to make changes in the 912ULS? I am wondering what is different about the 912S which is certified and used in IFR aircraft.
4. Can someone point me to suggestions for a good way to mount the handheld com? My plan is to fly the EAB test hours with just the handheld before buying the IFR stuff. I want to get some experience in the 12 to see how I feel about IFR in it. (If IFR does not feel right I will just buy the SL40).
Click to expand...

I can't add any value on these.

bob
 
Never had a problem with my pitot in IFR flying, but it was heated and I always tested it before taking off IFR. Just can't imagine why anyone would take the no heat risk. It's not expensive and flying IFR in the soup is challenging enough w/o suddenly discovering you have no functioning pitot-static instruments in such conditions.
Dick Seiders
 
IFR Questions

Thanks for the replies, Bob and Dick.

The Gemini will be on my list as back-up. The Pictorial Pilot and Al Trak in the RV6 have been great. But gosh, TT has had a hard time getting it to market.

I am a great believer in flying airways - and plan to continue doing that with the GPS but using the VORs as waypoints. With the RV6 I have been mostly using the enroute GPS when flying the airways. I do wonder how the Skyview HSI will work with the GPS - what it does for OBS. But I do not expect a problem from flying airways with no VOR capability....right?

About the pitot, I am just wondering. I know the heat can be done, but am trying to keep things as simple as possible (and keep that amp load down).

Again, thanks for the help.

Keith W.
 
Keith Williams said:
Thanks for the replies, Bob and Dick.

The Gemini will be on my list as back-up. The Pictorial Pilot and Al Trak in the RV6 have been great. But gosh, TT has had a hard time getting it to market.

I am a great believer in flying airways - and plan to continue doing that with the GPS but using the VORs as waypoints. With the RV6 I have been mostly using the enroute GPS when flying the airways. I do wonder how the Skyview HSI will work with the GPS - what it does for OBS. But I do not expect a problem from flying airways with no VOR capability....right?

About the pitot, I am just wondering. I know the heat can be done, but am trying to keep things as simple as possible (and keep that amp load down).

Again, thanks for the help.

Keith W.
Click to expand...

Just to chime in. The first Gemini ADI units are shipping today. I only have five units at this time, but it's positive progress. :)
 
How much current does the heated pitot use?

The discussion about the dual Skyview displays shows that there's evidently only limited electrical power available.

Dave
 
Keith Williams said:
1. I have zero experience with WAAS GPS operations. But would like to simplify things by just using waypoints, instead of figuring out where I am using the CDI/OBS, dials and needles. Do those of you with WAAS GPS experience see a problem with omitting the VOR receiver for the flying I have described?
2. Is a heated pitot really needed? I have one on the RV6 but the IFR Cherokee 140 I owned for 12 years before building the RV6 didn?t. Just wondering. I do not fly IMC in below freezing temps so ice is not an issue.

Keith W.
MIlan, IL
Click to expand...

Keith: I have a Cherokee 140 that was upgraded to IFR compliance with a heated pitot tube and a Garmin 430/Garmin audio panel/Garmin CDI in 2000. It was my understanding at that time that the heated pitot tube was required for IFR operations. It is certainly not safe to fly in clouds without one, in my opinion.

I have added a Garmin 696 when it became available, and upgraded the 430 to 430W (WAAS). I would not want to fly IFR without the capabilities of these two boxes. I would suggest newer, less expensive alternatives that still give you the functionality of my old Garmins.

Don
 
Pitot Heat

Hi Don,

I looked this up a while ago and my recollection is that pitot heat is required by the regs for large airplanes but not for small ones. The Rotax used on RV12 is limited in alternator capacity and I am trying to keep the electrical load down.

But regs aside, I am wondering about the reason for the heat, other than ice avoidance - perhaps there is more moisture accumulation or something???? Just do not know.

Keith W.
 
The Dynon heated pitot literature says it must be wired for 10 amps, max current draw. Also, there may be some used 430s coming on the market soon as some folks migrate to the new touchscreens. Might drop the prices a bit.
 
My questions are about IFR. I am thinking of replacing the SL40 with a GPS/COM (GTN635 or GNC420W) and adding backups (Dynon D-6 and panel mounted handheld com).

1. I have zero experience with WAAS GPS operations. But would like to simplify things by just using waypoints, instead of figuring out where I am using the CDI/OBS, dials and needles. Do those of you with WAAS GPS experience see a problem with omitting the VOR receiver for the flying I have described?
I really appreciate the help with the project you all have provided on this forum. Thanks in advance for any suggestions on these questions.

Keith W.
MIlan, IL[/QUOTE]

Keith,

My IFR goals are very much the same as yours, thererore, we just did an IFR instrument panel upgrade to my 7A this year... I installed a 420w and an SL40, NO VOR... Dual screen Garmin G3X, TruTrak Pilot GX autopilot and a Dynon D10A with internal battery backup as a PFD EFIS backup display... All Glass, no analog. We have 1 aircraft battery, a TCW battery backup for the dual screen Garmin G3X, 60amp B&C main alternator and a 20amp B&C standby alternator. I have a Dynon heated Pitot that provides AOA information. I received my instrument rating this past February and my 7A is IFR certified...

You can omit the VOR receiver, having a VOR is not required for IFR if you have a WAAS certified GPS. You can fly Victor airways or point to point with the WAAS GPS... you should expect to use the OBS mode and select the airway to fly using the magnetic course of the victor airway from or to the VOR... etc. I suggest installing the SL40 as a second comm and not depend on a handheld radio.

Good luck
Victor
 
WAAS GPS is not required to fly IFR without a VOR. The GPS must be certified for enroute and approach such as the 300XL.
 
Keith Williams said:
About the pitot, I am just wondering. I know the heat can be done, but am trying to keep things as simple as possible (and keep that amp load down).

Keith W.
Click to expand...

Adding a pitot heat would be the best way to make it "as simple as possible".

Dynon Pitot heat works great and it draws power only when it needs to heat up (not constant draw).
 
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