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crosswind vs. incoming 45 traffic: who has the right-of-way?

Final Approach

The 20 mile number was obviously picked to illustrate a point but following your logic when will I be on final approach? 5 miles, 2 miles, 1 mile, 2000 feet, airport boundary?

That seems to where the ambiguity is originating from. As I agree that it would be difficult to argue for 20miles people seem to have different opinions on what is reasonable.

Oliver

In the IFR world, the final approach fix is approximately 6 miles from touchdown. Perhaps it’s an apples vs oranges comparison, but I suspect that based on this it would be improbable that anyone (FAA or judge) would agree that an aircraft beyond this distance, whether VFR or IFR, would be considered to be on a final approach.

Skylor
 
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In the IFR world, the final approach fix is approximately 6 miles from touchdown. Perhaps it’s an apples vs oranges comparison, but I suspect that based on this it would be improbable that anyone (FAA or judge) would agree that an aircraft beyond this distance, whether VFR or IFR, would be considered to be on a final approach.

Skylor

Even at the FAF, you are not on "Final." You are on an IFR approach, just as you were at the IAF. The FAA guidance is VERY CLEAR that while on an IFR approach, the Pilot is responsible for spotting VFR traffic in the pattern and avoiding or managing that conflict at un-towered airports. This a big part of the rationale for commercial operators not going to untowered airports. ATC hands you off to the CTAF at 5-10 miles out and thereby fully transfer traffic avoidance responsibility to the pilot. The FAA does not state or imply that those on an IFR approach have some type of right of way over other traffic in the pattern. In fact there training documents state the opposite and warn of the challenges involved in dealing with this. Pretty sure it's even on the written test.

Larry
 
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Right of way VFR or IFR

Opening statement from FAR 91.113:

"When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules.....
 
And it goes on to say . . ."When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft, and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear."
 
Common Sense

Ag pilots on a single runway public airport with no taxiway. They take off in one direction, land in the opposite direction. Best not to get in their way. Very little based traffic and transient traffic is very rare. Best to follow the when in Rome protocol.
 
Ag pilots on a single runway public airport with no taxiway. They take off in one direction, land in the opposite direction. Best not to get in their way. Very little based traffic and transient traffic is very rare. Best to follow the when in Rome protocol.

How would one know that this is the standard practice at a given airport?
 
Ag pilots on a single runway public airport with no taxiway. They take off in one direction, land in the opposite direction. Best not to get in their way. Very little based traffic and transient traffic is very rare. Best to follow the when in Rome protocol.

How do we know how the Ag pilots expect us to behave?
 
AG

You don't know. The point is to keep your head on a swivel and expect the unexpected. Still a lot of non radio traffic out there. As has been previously noted gliders, balloons etc.
As for IFR traffic on non towered airport, if I hear someone on a straight in I am going to stay out of the way whether its a Cherokee or a Gulfstream 650. Common courtesy.
 
Final

Final approach segment(ICAO) That segment of an instrument approach procedure in which alignment and descent for landing are accomplished.
Using the GPS 24 approach at Gallup NM(KGUP) for example the final approach segment starts 13.0 miles from end of runway. This is not to be confused with final approach fix.
From a practical standpoint if an aircraft on that approach calls 10 mile final I am going to give way to that aircraft if I am in the pattern or entering the pattern.
 
From a practical standpoint if an aircraft on that approach calls 10 mile final I am going to give way to that aircraft if I am in the pattern or entering the pattern.

How exactly would you do that? Let's say it is a student in a 172. He is doing 70 knots into a 10 knot headwind (Students are taught stabilized approaches). It will take him around 10 minutes to reach the runway. If you just entered the pattern, what are you going to do for 10 minutes, while giving way?

Even a small jet is probably doing 120 knots and will take 5 minutes to reach the runway from 10 miles out.

Clearly a different story if they don't indicate how far out of they are.

I remain in the belief that an IFR pilot shooting an approach into a non-towered airport in VFR conditions, MUST be aware of other VFR traffic and sequence themselves into the pattern (FAR is very clear that the lower traffic has the right of way). I realize most just barrel in, assuming others will yield to their superior stature, but that doesn't mean they are supposed to.

Even stickier is that once handed off to CTAF or below MVA, the IFR pilot owns separation from VFR traffic, even in IMC (pretty much trusting that VFR pilots are not flying in the clouds - which I have experienced not to be a universal truism). Heaven forbid if the other aircraft is not announcing and also not following the rules about being 500' below clouds (this scenario is why the rule exists).

Larry
 
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The same way VFR pilots know how IFR pilots behave when doing an instrument approach at an uncontrolled field: We don't. It's a gong show.

Mine was really a teaser to the when in Rome analogy. When in Rome sure, when in our NAS no.

As a VFR pilot I expect the IFR pilots to behave IAW the FARs. 'This is the way we do things here' really only works if we are talking about the NAS writ large to somebody who is learning our rules. Examples have popped up in this and a similar thread about folks who normally violate the FARs as part of their routine procedures. These tend to be glider tows and jump wagons. I certainly don't know of any Ag pilots that fall into this trap of 'I work here, I own this' but if there is a scenario where an Ag pilot wants me to do things his/her way at a public that are different than the FARs then we should have one clear voice about why that isn't safe.
 
When was the last time you saw someone written up? I try to follow the rules when I fly but I also tend to yield when I hear a King Air ten mile out on the RNAV approach to 13.


In last quarter's report the FAA suspended/revoked/fined 55 times for $983,569

Those are a fraction of the deviations pursued since most are handled at the training or checkride level.
 
How many were for guys flying bug smashers?

Actually harder to tell than you might think as lots of corporate names are used even in what looks like private GA. Very few, perhaps even none this quarter it would take digging and then privacy issues come in.

Keep in mind the new FAA doctrine that calls for softer enforcement particularly on the private pilot level and below. Locally there are about five small/private GA deviations cooking that will probably all go to some kind of training resolution. BUT, those deviations are all investigated and logged in the event of recidivism. While enforcement is an unfortunate consequence it is not the intention of the rules. I chucked out some numbers because of a perception that enforcement doesn't happen. It does, but that's really not the point.
 
I remain in the belief that an IFR pilot shooting an approach into a non-towered airport in VFR conditions, MUST be aware of other VFR traffic and sequence themselves into the pattern….
Larry

Larry, take a look at the RNAV(gps)26 KTCY circle to 30 approach. A pilot operating under IFR is actually forbidden from joining the left hand vfr traffic pattern.
There are times when you just need to use some common sense and caution.
 
Larry, take a look at the RNAV(gps)26 KTCY circle to 30 approach. A pilot operating under IFR is actually forbidden from joining the left hand vfr traffic pattern.
There are times when you just need to use some common sense and caution.
How would someone without IFR training know what the IFR arrival is doing then? A VFR-only pilot will be flying a standard circuit and whoa! here comes a King Air out of nowhere doing his own thing (and likely still talking to center, not to CTAF, because he's still IFR).

The rules *should* require that an IFR flight arriving at an uncontrolled field in VFR conditions *cancels IFR* and lands VFR with the rest of the traffic.
 
The rules *should* require that an IFR flight arriving at an uncontrolled field in VFR conditions *cancels IFR* and lands VFR with the rest of the traffic.

This right here all day long. And if they are practicing, they need to announce an actual location, not the fix code. Most student VFR pilots have no idea where those final fixes are and it gives them no information as to location.
 
IFR

While I can't say always, even as a single pilot in King Air or whatever, my goal was always to have one radio on CTAF on an Instrument approach and call x miles final on CTAF, then switch back to center if appropriate.
I don't pay a lot of attention to the IFR training aircraft reporting xx intersection on CTAF in severe clear weather expecting everyone to get out of the way so they can land straight in.
A lot of comments on here indicate to me that many do not understand the situation with instrument approaches to airports in the tules that are not even attended, just an airstrip in the middle of nowhere.
Using Gallup for example the VFR weather minimums are 1000' and three miles. I have seen King Airs etc. coming and going VFR with one mile visibility. I was on the 24 GPS, in the clouds, here comes a company airplane VFR in the opposite direction. Visibility one mile. I knew about him because I was monitoring CTAF.
 
The rules *should* require that an IFR flight arriving at an uncontrolled field in VFR conditions *cancels IFR* and lands VFR with the rest of the traffic.

This is in fact what I do, personally.
My real issue (thread drift) is how to teach instrument students circling approaches, without, at some point, conflicting with vfr traffic. It’s rare, locally, to get wx that is below vfr but good enough for circling approaches.
 
While I can't say always, even as a single pilot in King Air or whatever, my goal was always to have one radio on CTAF on an Instrument approach and call x miles final on CTAF, then switch back to center if appropriate.
I don't pay a lot of attention to the IFR training aircraft reporting xx intersection on CTAF in severe clear weather expecting everyone to get out of the way so they can land straight in.
A lot of comments on here indicate to me that many do not understand the situation with instrument approaches to airports in the tules that are not even attended, just an airstrip in the middle of nowhere.
Using Gallup for example the VFR weather minimums are 1000' and three miles. I have seen King Airs etc. coming and going VFR with one mile visibility. I was on the 24 GPS, in the clouds, here comes a company airplane VFR in the opposite direction. Visibility one mile. I knew about him because I was monitoring CTAF.

Gallup has class E to the surface. My little airport KIKG is Class G to 700' AGL. All you need is 1 mile and clear of clouds.
 
How would someone without IFR training know what the IFR arrival is doing then? A VFR-only pilot will be flying a standard circuit and whoa! here comes a King Air out of nowhere doing his own thing (and likely still talking to center, not to CTAF, because he's still IFR).

The rules *should* require that an IFR flight arriving at an uncontrolled field in VFR conditions *cancels IFR* and lands VFR with the rest of the traffic.

This actually happened to me on my very first solo landing. Just took off and was on downwind when I hear a King Air announce the "middle marker" for the same runway I was using. I had NO IDEA where that was and therefore didnt know if my turning base in the next 5 seconds would cause a midair or not. So I exited the pattern (much to my instructor's horror) flew out aways and re entered the 45 for downwind when Mr King Air was clear. Really freaked me out at the time, but when I explained my little cross country adventure to my instructor he praised my "good decision making".
 
Class G

Absolutely. Gallup is the exception in that area. Most small airports with instrument approach are Class G airspace. In the case of a King Air they might be at 10 miles still at 200 or more indicated. If I cannot see them I will yield to them. Perfectly legal for a non radio aircraft to be at 600' AGL with a 700' ceiling and 1 mile visibility.
 
H

The rules *should* require that an IFR flight arriving at an uncontrolled field in VFR conditions *cancels IFR* and lands VFR with the rest of the traffic.

That pretty much is the rule. You don't cancel, but ATC stops providing VFR traffic separation at MVA (often 1500-2000 AGL) and hands the pilot off to CTAF, with the intent that the IFR pilot will start announcing and listening to avoid conflicts. At this point, ATC has cleared all other IFR traffic in the area, but has NOT cleared any VFR traffic. Therefore, it is up to the IFR pilot, once in VFR conditions, to self-separate from other VFR traffic. There is no inerent right of way for the IFR pilot over the VFR pilot. Many IFR pilots seem to think there is, but there is not. Unfortunately most training is done a towered airports and the pilots don't understand the difference in rules. At towered airports, their clearance protects them all the way to the runway, as there is a seamless transition from ctr or approach to the tower. A big reason many commercial operators won't fly into non towered airports in IFR conditions; it is inherently less safe than a towered airport.

This can get dicey when ceilings are low, as in most areas, up to 700 AGL is class G airspace and pilots don't need to maintain 500' below clouds, so someone could be in the pattern at 650' with 700' ceilings. The IFR pilot has more options, as his airspace remains clear from IFR pilots and can go missed back into the clouds without risk. ATC keeps the surrounding area clear of other IFR traffic until the pilot cancels, usually after landing or in VFR conditions.

Larry
 
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That pretty much is the rule. You don't cancel, but ATC stops providing VFR traffic separation at MVA (often 1500-2000 AGL) and hands the pilot off to CTAF, with the intent that the IFR pilot will start announcing and listening to avoid conflicts. At this point, ATC has cleared all other IFR traffic in the area, but has NOT cleared any VFR traffic. Therefore, it is up to the IFR pilot, once in VFR conditions, to self-separate from other VFR traffic. There is no inerent right of way for the IFR pilot over the VFR pilot. Many IFR pilots seem to think there is, but there is not. Unfortunately most training is done a towered airports and the pilots don't understand the difference in rules. At towered airports, their clearance protects them all the way to the runway, as there is a seamless transition from ctr or approach to the tower. A big reason many commercial operators won't fly into non towered airports in IFR conditions; it is inherently less safe than a towered airport.

This can get dicey when ceilings are low, as in most areas, up to 700 AGL is class G airspace and pilots don't need to maintain 500' below clouds, so someone could be in the pattern at 650' with 700' ceilings. The IFR pilot has more options, as his airspace remains clear from IFR pilots and can go missed back into the clouds without risk. ATC keeps the surrounding area clear of other IFR traffic until the pilot cancels, usually after landing or in VFR conditions.

Larry

Good write up! Really drives home the value of the Class E shield around certain Non-Towered fields with instrument procedures.

When travelling any distance, I go IFR and am not bothered by IMC so long as it's warm enough to avoid ice. Arriving out of the clouds not well aligned with my unfamiliar destination and then discovering somebody is actually running a pattern circuit would be an added task level that I wouldn't have expected. Academically I understood it, but having not yet encountered it I hadn't pictured it yet.

Good reason to consider an alternate with Class E if ceilings get low.
 
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Good reason to consider an alternate with Class E if ceilings get low.

FYI,Class E at the majority of un towered airports only extends down to 700 AGL. Glass G below. This keeps most out with ceilings below 1000, but still legal to fly at 699' with 1 mi visibility and a few feet below the overcast. A few airports, with dashed magenta lines, have E down to surface in a 4 mile ring.
 
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