New Garmin stuff

Did any of you look at the Garmin web site. Seems they just put out a new EFIS suite for homebuilts. The G900X. Do I need glasses or it really says $66745.00 for it? ****, that's a s much as a new RV!
http://www.garmin.com/pressroom/aviation/072306b.html
They also put out, at the same time, a complete retrofit package for certified.
I think those are the big Oshkosh news....not the 496.

You read correct

I talked with a Garmin salesman up here at Oshkosh and he told me around $68,000. I was amazed he could say it with a straight face. I wish I was that rich. Guess I will be sticking to some "older" technologies for my -10.

Joe Hutchison

attackpilot said:

I talked with a Garmin salesman up here at Oshkosh and he told me around $68,000. I was amazed he could say it with a straight face. I wish I was that rich. Guess I will be sticking to some "older" technologies for my -10.

Joe Hutchison

Click to expand...

No kidding, you could outfit two aircraft with dual-screen Chelton Sport-EFIS's, plus add an autopilot to one of the planes, and have a much richer feature set to boot. What are they thinking?

Yep. I agree.

I'm sure the $68K increases safety some (synthetic terrain? bigger moving map? better tracking on approaches?) - but I think that price point is still in the "have more money than sense or money is no object category."

Actually - if you want to do a truly good deed, spend $40K on your glass panel and donate the remaining TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND dollars to your favorite good works.

Strange.

It's gotta be aim at airplanes like the Lancair 4P, Propjet, Epic and other non-homebuilt-homebuilts...

This is all making my $9 chart look awful good...

Ditto...

I suppose if I were very rich, the Garmin may have some appeal. Then again, if I were rich, I wouldn't be building an RV. I'd have a SuperCub, a Malibu and a Pitts S2C. So I guess I still don't get it

Garmin have lost the plot

I think it is fair to say Garmin have lost the plot on this one. There are probably people out there that will purchase this gear but at this price it is extreemly difficult to justify even from a safety standpoint. I find it hard to accept it is worth the fanfare that has been made of it thus far.

An RV, like most other experimentals, is not a hard-core IFR ship. The RV lacks IFR platform stability, deicing equipment and a second engine. Whilst I intend to use mine for IFR, I think even if we consider particularly active IFR experimental pilots, the 5 year cost of one of these things would work out to be at least $5k per approach.

If you are not using this for IFR, it is a very expensive canopy.

I for one do not get a lot of value from the handheld GPS's etc as I live in Australia and there is no coverage for the weather etc but there are a lot of good things to be had in this area of the market.

What is really needed in the certified panel market is the GNS 430 WAAS upgrade, and another GPS/COM with WAAS at a lower entry price. There is value in having a simple GPS unit without VOR/ILS and all the other bits.

Nevermind, I will be at Oshkosh on Thursday and I will tell the Garmin guys myself... Who's up for a beer? I've worked up quite a thirst in the CA heat already.

Richard
RV7A
(Coming to Oshkosh from Australia to select avionics)

No Joy from Garmin

I've got to agree with Richard that Garmin is off base. The new G600/900 do not interest me one bit. An update to 430/530 line would be of a lot more interesting. Too bad there's not more competition in the basic Nav/Comm/GPS market.

Garmin has lost sight of the ball on this one.

I think they are just getting crazy with their prices. There is no reason they have to charge that kind of money for thier products. Just imagin how much the Dynon would cost if Garmin made it!

Rick_A said:

Too bad there's not more competition in the basic Nav/Comm/GPS market.

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It's okay, more competition is on the way. Narco is gonna save the day! Yep, big new things brewing over there at Narco... gonna knock Garmin/King/Dynon/GRT in the dirt!

Oh, wait. Never mind; the only "new" thing they've come up with in the past 25 years is an upgraded transponder.

Regarding the new Garmin and it's shocking price tag, it seems to me they're targeting a whole different group than us lowly experimental types. They're after the Flying magazine crowd... the filthy rich dudes with money to burn, driving around in their Malibus, A36 Bonanzas, Baron 58s, King Airs, etc.

Quote from the Garmin web site:

"*Garmin G900X packages are available for most new Lancair models (excluding Legacy series) and Van's RV-7 through RV-10 series products."

They are really aiming birds like ours.

BrickPilot said:

No kidding, you could outfit two aircraft with dual-screen Chelton Sport-EFIS's, plus add an autopilot to one of the planes, and have a much richer feature set to boot. What are they thinking?

Click to expand...

I think they aim to take over the Avionics world and here is why.

With a dual screen Chelton, you still need radios, transponder, audio panel and GPS. The G900X includes dual VHF Nav, dual VHF coms, dual GPS, transponder and audio panel. Add those items to the cost of your single dual-screen Chelton's you will find that you are almost at the $66,745 G900X price and with NO integration. Also the G900X is the SAME certified hardware as the G1000 just no FAA paperwork. The $29,772 G600 is more a direct comparison to the dual-screen Chelton.

What additional features are you referring?

rwtrwtau said:

...
What is really needed in the certified panel market is the GNS 430 WAAS upgrade, and another GPS/COM with WAAS at a lower entry price. There is value in having a simple GPS unit without VOR/ILS and all the other bits.
...

Click to expand...

The GNS-430W and GNS-530W are supposedly on display in the Garmin booth. They will be will be available this fall for $10,750 and $16,495 respectively.

W, points taken, although I thought the Chelton had GPS built in. At any rate, the Chelton EFIS with the HITS, 3D synthetic terrain, "glide ring", etc., seems to be a better thought-out PFD technology than Garmin's solution. The integration aspect is one thing I hadn't considered. Are the 600 and 900X TSO'd units - legal for IFR approaches? Thanks.

BrickPilot said:

... I thought the Chelton had GPS built in.

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The optional "built in" GPS for the Chelton is not an approved GPS for approaches-if that means anything to anyone.

BrickPilot said:

At any rate, the Chelton EFIS with the HITS, 3D synthetic terrain, "glide ring", etc., seems to be a better thought-out PFD technology than Garmin's solution.

Click to expand...

True these are added, but is primarily of value to MVFR pilots, not-IMHO to serious IFR pilots would would be the ones spending the big buck for this type of hardware.

BrickPilot said:

Are the 600 and 900X TSO'd units - legal for IFR approaches?

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If TSO is of value to you then that should eliminate the Chelton Sport line. There is much debate and confusion on the need for IFR certified GPS for experimental aircraft. Without getting into that discussion, Garmin has stated that the G600 will be fully certified and STC'd for "over 400" certified airframes. Since it is not and does not include a GPS then I don't think the question of approaches apply. The G900X on the other hand includes GPS in the integrated system and since it is legal for the G1000, I would say it is legal for the G900X.

Garmin needs competition or they will take over the Avionics world

Garmin is on a path for Avionics world domination and my prediction is that if competitors (Chelton, Avidyne) don?t make major adjustments to their price structures, they will be out of business shortly. Avidyne is in a somewhat better position but they are still under threat. Also in a good position is GRT since they are still half the cost of the G600-albeit non-certified.

Garmin's certified G1000 is not available without an airframe attached to it-unless it?s for a King Air. The G900X, which is the same hardware as the G1000 but for the experimental market is $66,745. The G600 which is certified and thus available both to Type Certified airframes as well as experimental, is $29,772. Stark, et al, will most likely offer these at discounts to kitbuilders just as they do with other Garmin products.

Avidyne's certified FlightMax hardware is $65,985 (PFD-$45,995, MFD-$16,995, Charts-$2,995,) similarly configured to the G600 and is OEM?d primarily by Cirrus. All their stuff is certified and can be used by experimentals or certified aircraft. They have nothing comparable to the G1000.

Chelton's certified hardware is $50,000 (D2A) similarly configured to the G600 and is not used by any OEM airframe manufacturer. Their dual screen experimental hardware is $25,000 and shares no hardware in common with the certified stuff. They also have nothing comparable to the G1000.

The last number I heard was that there were upwards of 40,000 GNS-430/530 sold. There is good reason for this--they work, they are reliable, the prices are reasonable and the customer support is great. So given the choice of uncertified hardware for $25,000 and certified hardware for $29,772 from a company that has sold 40,000 GNS-430/530, I think the certified retrofit and the mid-high end kitbuild market will flock to the G600 and to a lesser extent the G900X.

The G600 will even eat away at the Avidyne market share. It seems Cirrus is looking at the G600 in lieu of the Avidyne displays. They probably looked at the G-1000 but stayed with the Avidyne to keep prices in check. The G600 is not as big as the Avidyne, but it is less than half the price.

Should Avidyne be worried? The picture below says yes.

Cirrus with Garmin G600

To TSO or not to TSO?

w1curtis said:

The optional "built in" GPS for the Chelton is not an approved GPS for approaches-if that means anything to anyone.

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Are you saying that the D2A Chelton "Sport" systems with the WAAS GPS option are not approved for GPS approaches? Chelton seems to think that it meets the requirements, at least for experimentals that do not require TSOed GPS; however, such GPS must incorporate RAIM. D2A also states, in the context of discussing the new combo GPS-ADC-AHRS unit from Pinpoint:

Q: So it?s WAAS enabled. Does that mean I can do GPS approaches and precision GPS approaches?
A: No. The GPS in the GADAHRS does not allow for primary navigation, nor does any experimental GPS without RAIM or integrity monitoring capability. The FreeFlight 1101 or 1201 WAAS GPS receiver would be required for such approaches.


I think this is what sets Chelton apart from the Garmin G600 system - the level of integration. The G600 is designed to replace the "6 pack" instruments with a PFD and MFD. The Chelton is provides PFD and MFD with integrated FMS, and adds synthetic vision, interfacing to engine monitoring and other goodies (IMHO, better terrain warnings, "engine out glide" circle, "noodle" lead path marker, etc).

Garmin has the cost advantage if you need TSOed instruments. Chelton has more functionality for the buck if you are flying an experimental.

Where is it all going?

I just can't believe that you guys are talking about "one" black box that costs more than twice what my flying RV-6 cost.

Mel said:

I just can't believe that you guys are talking about "one" black box that costs more than twice what my flying RV-6 cost.

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To each their own on this subject I guess. I know people who have $250,000+ in their Lancair panels which seems crazy to me. When the panel costs as much as the engine and airframe combined... well ok if that's your bag. I tend to side with Mel on this one. My entire RV10 panel for legal VFR on top- everything, costs $14,000. This includes Digiflight 2 axis, Bendix/ King Skymap IIIC color GPS, GTX 327, SL40, electric gyros and steam gauges- no glass stuff for me. I need to save something for retirement!

I won't have my head in the cockpit pressing buttons and I won't have torn out all my hair installing and debugging the glass stuff and I'll remember how it all works next time I fly the plane 2 weeks later. Yes, I'm getting old but someone has to keep UMA in business.

the_other_dougreeves said:

Are you saying that the D2A Chelton "Sport" systems with the WAAS GPS option are not approved for GPS approaches? Chelton seems to think that it meets the requirements, at least for experimentals that do not require TSOed GPS; however, such GPS must incorporate RAIM.

Click to expand...

I guess it depends on which Chelton GPS we are talking about.

WAAS in itself does NOT make a GPS approved for IFR approaches. Prior to the GPS in the Pinpoint AHRS, AFAIK (and per the referenced document), Chelton offered a non-approved WAAS and an approved Freeflight WAAS GPS. The one to which I was referring was the non-approved WAAS GPS. The optional Free Flight WAAS GPS with integrity monitoring, IS legal for GPS approaches.

the_other_dougreeves said:

I think this is what sets Chelton apart from the Garmin G600 system - the level of integration. The G600 is designed to replace the "6 pack" instruments with a PFD and MFD. The Chelton is provides PFD and MFD with integrated FMS, and adds synthetic vision, interfacing to engine monitoring and other goodies (IMHO, better terrain warnings, "engine out glide" circle, "noodle" lead path marker, etc).

Click to expand...

I see the level of integration as being about the same initially, but if you will be using Garmin transponders, Garmin GPS and Garmin nav\comms, (is there anyone else) the G600 would be MORE integrated than the Chelton. I don't know if the G600 will do engine display but this is a fairly trivial addition and I would guess that it could.

As for the other goodies such as synthetic vision, this is one of those things that is a great idea in concept, then it meets the real world (the US ATC system) and the utility diminishes.

Mel said:

I just can't believe that you guys are talking about "one" black box that costs more than twice what my flying RV-6 cost.

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Oh, I can't afford one either (I briefly toyed with the idea of incorporating a G600) but as for now I'm still leaning towards a dual screen GRT system with EIS. This setup is still less than half the cost of those being discussed--even if the graphics aren't as nice.

Just a few clarifications.

w1curtis said:

The optional "built in" GPS for the Chelton is not an approved GPS for approaches-if that means anything to anyone.

Click to expand...

Ok, to shed some light on this topic....

The Chelton comes *with*, it's not optional, a WAAS GPS, its in the AHRS and that is why it's called a GADAHRS - GPS, AIR, DATA, ATTITUDE, HEADING, REFERENCE, SYSTEM. (btw, it did before the pinpoint as well, pretty sure it was integrated in the Xbow, but there wasn't an AirData Computer integrated before, you got that from the Altitude option on the GRT EIS).

Notice, I said nothing about TSO, nor certification and it is *not* certified to TSO-145A which techically is needed to support WAAS approaches.

Ok, on to point 2, that should also help clear this up.

the_other_dougreeves said:

Are you saying that the D2A Chelton "Sport" systems with the WAAS GPS option are not approved for GPS approaches? Chelton seems to think that it meets the requirements, at least for experimentals that do not require TSOed GPS; however, such GPS must incorporate RAIM. D2A also states, in the context of discussing the new combo GPS-ADC-AHRS unit from Pinpoint:

Q: So it?s WAAS enabled. Does that mean I can do GPS approaches and precision GPS approaches?
A: No. The GPS in the GADAHRS does not allow for primary navigation, nor does any experimental GPS without RAIM or integrity monitoring capability. The FreeFlight 1101 or 1201 WAAS GPS receiver would be required for such approaches.

Click to expand...

You can, if you wish, add the Freeflight systems GPS module to the Chelton system. It is a model 1101 for experimental and 1201 for certified. It *is* certified to TSO-145A - WAAS Certification and can be used for WAAS GPS approaches.

I believe the above is no different than the other EFIS guys. They come with a non-certified one, and you either add a 480 or some other certified one to get WAAS Approaches.

One point of note, to use a WAAS certifed environment as the "Primary" navigation environment (meaning you have no other VOR/ILS NAV radios - probably not wise, but will happen when the decommision ILS/VOR), you also need to comply with TSO-146A - it has to do with FMS, the Chelton already complies with 146A. So in effect, a Chelton with Freeflight could give you "primary navigation with WAAS".

w1curtis said:

I think they aim to take over the Avionics world and here is why.

With a dual screen Chelton, you still need radios, transponder, audio panel and GPS. The G900X includes dual VHF Nav, dual VHF coms, dual GPS, transponder and audio panel. Add those items to the cost of your single dual-screen Chelton's you will find that you are almost at the $66,745 G900X price and with NO integration. Also the G900X is the SAME certified hardware as the G1000 just no FAA paperwork. The $29,772 G600 is more a direct comparison to the dual-screen Chelton.

What additional features are you referring?

Click to expand...

A quick estimate adding all Garmin equipment to the dual screen Chelton providing the same redundancy and capability is still about $20,000 cheaper than the G900. The integration is virtually no different as the 900 just combines the controls for the equipment, the radios are rack mounted behind the screens with a wiring harness that appears to be of similar complexity to their vertical stack..

Like the Chelton the G600 includes no radio equipment however the 600 has no revision capability, when screen goes out you lose everything. With the Chelton and I belive the G900 if the PFD goes out the MFD automatically reverts to a PFD and also allows for manual viewing of other screens at the pilots discretion.

One Avionics dealer at Osh quoted a plug-n-play G900 panel with basic round back up at somewhere north of $90,000. This did not include some features; traffic, terrain, weather, etc. Some of the features Garmin is including in their promotional and hands on displays at Osh are really options and will add to the cost. The Garmin rep at Osh also said some features will not be available until mid 2007.

When selecting avionics everybody has a different mission for their airplane and will want more or less equipment to fill that need. While some of the equipment is ?whistles, bells and gee-whiz? from experience I believe that equipment like the Chelton will increase flight safety because of ease of use, reduced work load and better situational awareness, ?some transition training required?. However, the transition to glass is fairly easy when the equipment is intuitive and pilot oriented. Before you buy get a hands on demo, or better go for an in-flight demo and push buttons, turn knobs, and experience the equipment you may be considering. Also, don?t forget that other reliable and more affordable equipment is available, such as Grand Rapids, with similar features and capabilities.