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RV-12iS Questions

Amadeus

Well Known Member
What is the width of -12iS with wings removed (at both the main gear and at the horizontal stabilizer)?

Has a trailer manufacturer created a lightweight trailer fit for the -12iS (most trailers 20 foot to 24 foot are considered heavy duty/heavy loads and have two axles, etc.)?

If registered as E-LSA can I, as the builder, do my own maintenance and annual inspections on the -12iS or does that require registering as EAB?

If registering as EAB is the weight still 1,320 or is there room for a higher weight number for EAB?

Any aircraft registered LSA cannot fly in IMC despite the IFR certified avionics. If registered EAB and equipped with the IFR avionics package can the -12iS then be operated in IMC by an Instrument Rated pilot?
 
If registered as E-LSA can I, as the builder, do my own maintenance and annual inspections on the -12iS ...

Maintenance - yes

Annual inspection - yes - IF you take the 16 hour course to obtain a Light Sport Repairman certificate with an Inspection rating.
 
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Joe,

That’s not accurate for ELSA. My operating limits permit night and IMC operation if appropriately equipped. Mine was licensed in 2012, and I have an email from my DAR clarifying that specific question which I asked as a result of the convoluted wording of my OLs.

Can’t speak to the current versions of OL’s.

Rich
 
Joe,

That’s not accurate for ELSA. My operating limits permit night and IMC operation if appropriately equipped. Mine was licensed in 2012, and I have an email from my DAR clarifying that specific question which I asked as a result of the convoluted wording of my OLs.

Can’t speak to the current versions of OL’s.

Rich

What is appropriately equipped for night flight? I too have a RV-12 completed in 2012, with light package... red and green and strobe end markers with a landing light in the right front outside wing cap edge installed.
 
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What is appropriately equipped for night flight? I too have a RV-12 completed in 2012, with light package... red and green and strobe end markers with a landing light in the right front outside wingcap edge installed.
Position lights are required. If equipped with strobes, you must use them. Landing light is optional, but certainly a good idea, especially in the LA basin.

Here's a good summary: https://blog.globalair.com/post/2015/11/19/In-the-Dark-About-Aircraft-Lights
 
Vans website states the RV-12iS may file and operate IFR (for training) but not operate in actual IMC:

The current regulations preclude entering actual Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) in any SLSA airplane. While the FAA does not directly/specifically object to it, the ASTM committee’s LSA standard states that the aircraft must be placarded including a statement that flight into IMC is not allowed (but notably makes no exclusions on IFR operations – or operating “in the system” with air traffic control).

Which takes me back to my original question of whether registering the RV-12iS as EAB instead of E-LSA would allow flight in IMC if properly equipped. Also if weight limit may be changed (higher) if registering EAB instead of the 1320 E-LSA.
 
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My understanding is that if registered EAB and properly equipped then the RV-12 can be flown into instrument conditions IF ALLOWED in the operating limitations. I plan to be very clear with my DAR (when the time comes) that my plane will NOT be ELSA and that I want to include flight into IFR as allowable in my operating conditions. Obviously I'm not at that point yet (still working on the empennage) but I've had some discussions with my local FSDO and it sounds like the best plan is to engage the DAR early and get these discussions out of the way before he/she shows up for the final inspection.

Regarding gross weight, this is another issue I've put a lot of thought into as well. I would LOVE to be able to increase the gross weight and I believe it is technically allowed if you go EAB but personally, I'm not going to do it for two reasons:

1. The RV-12 was specifically designed to meet the LSA requirements, unlike other aircraft (carbon cub, kitfox, etc) that can be "de-rated" into LSA by setting the gross weight lower. Those aircraft were actually designed for a higher weight but the RV-12 wasn't. I would trust the engineers at Vans, they've made the airplane as strong as it needs to be and probably not much more in order to keep weight down and performance up.

2. If the gross weight is higher than 1320 then the airplane cannot be flown by a Sport Pilot. This may not be an issue for you but I am building the airplane with my Dad and although we're both PPLs right now, there is always the possibility he may go to Sport Pilot as he gets older. My understanding is that as long as the airplane meets the definition of LSA (gross weight, stall speed, max speed, etc) and has never NOT met that definition then it can be flown by a Sport Pilot, even if it is registered EAB. Of course he won't be able to operate IFR but that would be a limitation of his license, not the airplane. This is also a resale consideration.

I am NOT an expert, DAR, FSDO representative, etc. so take everything I've said with a grain of salt. It's just my current understanding based on my research.

EDIT: Also, I just measured my stabilator, it is exactly 8 feet wide without tip fairings (I think this is another specific design feature, 8' is the max width for trailering in some places). The tip fairings add another 2" to each side (but they look good :)
 
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IFR operation of your aircraft in is controlled by the FAA through your operating limits.

For an S-LSA, this is the controlling limit, per 8130-2J is;

6) This aircraft may only be operated per the manufacturer’s aircraft operating instructions (AOI)[POH], including any requirement for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft’s equipment list. Night flight and instrument flight rules (IFR) operations are authorized if allowed by the AOI and if the instruments specified in § 91.205 are installed, operational, and maintained per the applicable requirements of part 91.

Since the POH is written to ASTM standards and the standards don’t permit operation in IMC, an S-LSA can not be flown in IMC.

The above limit is NOT issued to an E-LSA. Instead both E-LSA and EAB can be issued this limit;

49) Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in § 91.205(d) are installed, operational, compliant with the performance requirements of, and maintained per the applicable regulations. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning aircraft to service.
 
My understanding is that as long as the airplane meets the definition of LSA (gross weight, stall speed, max speed, etc) and has never NOT met that definition then it can be flown by a Sport Pilot, even if it is registered EAB.

EDIT: Also, I just measured my stabilator, it is exactly 8 feet wide without tip fairings (I think this is another specific design feature, 8' is the max width for trailering in some places). The tip fairings add another 2" to each side (but they look good :)


Leaving the weight at 1320 is probably best if it is possible for a Sport Pilot to fly despite being registered as EAB. I had never thought of this aspect but the clock never stops turning and none of us know our futures.

Thanks for the measurement. My interest is for trailering back and forth from home to airport thereby saving on hangar fees.
 
ELSA has a financial advantage over EAB. The main builder of a EAB RV12 is the only one who can obtain the repairman certificate. Under the ELSA rules a new owner can take the 16 hour repairman class can do the inspections. This can happen any number of times as the plane changes hands. Originally building to a ELSA standard gives both confidence in build quality and ELSA inspection advantages which gives the aircraft a higher resale value.

After certification of the ELSA aircraft it can be modified to meet your needs as long as it’s performance does not exceed the definition of a LSA. (Fixed landing gear, single pitched prop, 1320 lbs gross weight, 120 knots max speed, 2 person max seating. Changes made to the aircraft should be documented and procedures added to the POH.

My ELSA operating limitations allow night VFR and IFR flight in IMC. I exceed all the equipment requirements necessary for such a flight.
 
Has anyone actually seen the ASTM standard that prohibits LSA flight in actual IMC (even if properly equipped)? My 2018 ELSA’s Operating Limitations permit IMC operations (if properly equipped). I have spent hours looking, and asking others for, the paragraph of the ASTM that prohibits IMC flight. I haven’t found it, and no one has provided me with it or told me where to find it. My conclusion: the prohibition is like a unicorn—often referred to but never seen in the wild, and not real.
 
Thanks for the measurement. My interest is for trailering back and forth from home to airport thereby saving on hangar fees.

The RV-12 was designed to meet the trailering max width requirements in the USA. Note that adding the optional stabilator fairings technically makes it just a tad bit wide relative to that limit.
 
Doesn’t say it’s “inapplicable” to aircraft operated under IFR.

Perry Mason (AKA Rich 😜)

Correct.

This sentence could mean — and I think it does — that these are the standards for LSAs when they are flown in VMC. It does not say LSAs may not be flown in IMC, nor even that LSAs may only be flown in VMC.

My understanding of the history of this issue is that the ASTM committee members couldn’t agree on whether LSAs should fly in IMC, so they decided to say nothing about it, and to revisit the question at a later meeting but haven’t done so, yet.
 
Correct.

This sentence could mean — and I think it does — that these are the standards for LSAs when they are flown in VMC. It does not say LSAs may not be flown in IMC, nor even that LSAs may only be flown in VMC.

My understanding of the history of this issue is that the ASTM committee members couldn’t agree on whether LSAs should fly in IMC, so they decided to say nothing about it, and to revisit the question at a later meeting but haven’t done so, yet.

If this were the case, the ASTM committee wouldn't be having discussions about changing the requirements to allow SLSA aircraft to fly actual IFR (if being flown by a properly rated pilot). It could happen, but don't expect it any time soon.
 
Trailer width question

The RV-12 was designed to meet the trailering max width requirements in the USA. Note that adding the optional stabilator fairings technically makes it just a tad bit wide relative to that limit.

I, too, am interested in a lightweight trailer meeting the width requirements..but want to keep my stab fairings (currently under construction)..so...I was thinking about attaching them with a Camloc style fastener that would allow quick removal for trailer transport instead of using rivets for a permanent attachment. If this is an issue with licensing, it might happen "later".. :D

The OP was wondering about dual wheels, etc, and weight...I'm far from an expert, but I want duals..tows much better, safer, more stable. I would recommend that if the OP wants to save weight, order a purpose built ALUMINUM trailer from a reputable manufacturer (they are out there)...more expensive, but lighter and last forever. The empty weight of the 12 plus trailer should be easy for the average truck/SUV... Buy it once and done.
 
The RV-12 was designed to meet the trailering max width requirements in the USA. Note that adding the optional stabilator fairings technically makes it just a tad bit wide relative to that limit.

Put a spacer under one main wheel that tilts the airplane 17 degrees. That'll put the width just under 8 feet.;). What I would actually do is simply declare 8'-4" to be close enough.

Jerre
 
Towing width

The legal trailer width is 8'6" (102") in the US. If you ever noticed on semi trailers they usually have a 102 on one of the doors.
 
Trailer

I do get lots of looks and double takes as I trailer to the airport, about 20 miles. Passed or been followed by the police on several occasions. Most times the lawmen smile and give a thumbs up. I do not have the tip fairings on my stabilator, but I don't think it would be a problem, at least in Georgia.
 
Trailer width

I, too, am interested in a lightweight trailer meeting the width requirements..but want to keep my stab fairings (currently under construction)..so...I was thinking about attaching them with a Camloc style fastener that would allow quick removal for trailer transport instead of using rivets for a permanent attachment. If this is an issue with licensing, it might happen "later"..

The legal limit for trailer width is 104 inches, not 96 inches.
 
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If this were the case, the ASTM committee wouldn't be having discussions about changing the requirements to allow SLSA aircraft to fly actual IFR (if being flown by a properly rated pilot). It could happen, but don't expect it any time soon.

Scott/Greg,
It seems there is general consensus about the rules for SLSA, but still a lot of confusion about the applicability of the IMC rules to ELSA planes. Several of the earlier posts raise what appear to be very valid points about ELSA planes being able to legally fly in IMC. Van’s website specifically mentions that IMC flight is not allowed for both SLSA and ELSA. Can you help clear up the confusion/discrepancies between what these posters are stating and Van’s stance on the issue?

Jerald
 
The RV-12 was designed to meet the trailering max width requirements in the USA. Note that adding the optional stabilator fairings technically makes it just a tad bit wide relative to that limit.

How about main gear width with and without wheel pants? It appears that most standard build trailers have an 80" deck width. Will the -12iS fit between the side rails with (or without) wheel pants?
 
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