What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Salvage Engines-Are They Worth It?

Laird

Laird

Well Known Member
So at some point down the distant road, I'm going to need an engine.

With Lycoming raising the prices of their new engines thru the roof, it looks like I'll need to do something different than that.

Are salvage engines a good place to start?

Looking at another sales site, you see all kinds of available engines from salvage outfits.

Let's assume there is an O-360 there for $10K, and nearly runout, so essentially you're buying a complete core. Let's also assume (BIG assumption here) that all the parts are acceptable to overhaul with the exception of the cylinders which will be bought new and installed on said engine.

In the interest in learning, I would be doing all the leg work to disassemble and send the parts out for inspection and then probably hiring a local shop to assemble all the bits.

Can this actually save any money compared to buying new? Or going to one of the bigger shops (LyCon, Aerosport, Barrettes) with a shopping list of parts and paying large sums of money? Or am I just wasting my time and I'll end up spending as much as a new engine and ending up with a overhaul?

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of what it takes to overhaul a core, $$$ wise?

Didn't IronFlight just do this for Mikey? I'd bet he's writing an article about it now....

Laird
 
In 3 words or less

WARRANTY, WARRANTY, WARRANTY (Does anyone offer more warranty than a NEW Lycoming?) The price may seem high but in reality you are more than just an engine. You are paying more for Warranty.... Old Yiddish saying: "You can never pay too much for Quality and/or You can never pay too little for Junk"
 
Last edited:
Always a surprise

Unless you are familiar with the run-out engine, beware. My experience was that the 'core' I bought had a crank crack, bad cam and lifters (not unexpected), and all 4 cylinders were fails due to cracks in the heads. I think the case and gears were OK?

The next donor was an 800 hour engine, pulled because of cam/lifter failure, which also had cracks in all 4 cylinders! That was a known engine.
 
Laird said:
So at some point down the distant road, I'm going to need an engine.

With Lycoming raising the prices of their new engines thru the roof, it looks like I'll need to do something different than that.

Are salvage engines a good place to start?

Looking at another sales site, you see all kinds of available engines from salvage outfits.

Let's assume there is an O-360 there for $10K, and nearly runout, so essentially you're buying a complete core. Let's also assume (BIG assumption here) that all the parts are acceptable to overhaul with the exception of the cylinders which will be bought new and installed on said engine.

In the interest in learning, I would be doing all the leg work to disassemble and send the parts out for inspection and then probably hiring a local shop to assemble all the bits.

Can this actually save any money compared to buying new? Or going to one of the bigger shops (LyCon, Aerosport, Barrettes) with a shopping list of parts and paying large sums of money? Or am I just wasting my time and I'll end up spending as much as a new engine and ending up with a overhaul?

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of what it takes to overhaul a core, $$$ wise?

Didn't IronFlight just do this for Mikey? I'd bet he's writing an article about it now....

Laird
Click to expand...

If you are looking at a Lycoming with 2000 hours as "run out" if the hours were during a reasonable amount of time, and no prop strike, the least I would do is install and run it for a while. The Most I would do is TOP it.
 
If you want the nitty-gritty on a DIY overhaul, we did a series in Kitplanes that started in (if I recall correctly - I am still on the road and don’t have my archives drive with me…) December of 2020 called “Renewal” that goes through all the pros and cons (and costs) of doing it yourself.

My thoughts on your case - if an engine is a long way off, it certainly doesn’t hurt to keep an eye out for a cream puff core off a storm-damaged airplane….they don;t come up often, but if you have the time, you might well find one.

Lots and lots of homebuilts used to be built with used engines, and flown that way for hundreds of hours until overhaul. You do not HAVE to have a new engine, despite what your neighbor (or everyone on the internet) might think…. ;)

Paul
 
When faced with the same question 20 years ago, I looked for a first run core, found one, and rebuilt it with a little help from some IA/A&P friends. These are very simple engines. So the exercise is very doable. But does it make financial sense in today's world?

Looking at prices, a DIY rebuild will be the cost of the core, hopefully 4 new cylinders ($5k), a couple thousand dollars of machine work, and a couple thousand dollars of bearings, seals, etc. Add in new/rebuilt accessories and you're probably around core cost + $15K. Using your $10K core, you get ~$25K for an engine you rebuilt. You might come in a couple of thousand lower.

But you are carrying all of the risk if the crank has to be turned to minimums (meaning not overhaulable a second time), or if the engine comes apart after 10 hours on the airplane. You also have a crank, crankcase, rods, etc. that have been overhauled at least once.

Considering all of that, the additional $5K +/- for a new crate engine from Van's is a pretty good deal, IMO.
 
I have first hand knowledge because I did pretty much exactly what you are talking about. I bought a suitable engine about 5 years ago when it became available at a good price. Set it aside until just recently when I tore it apart and did my own inspection and then sent it to an engine builder for overhaul. I wanted to be part of the reassembly but these guys are just way too busy to entertain something like that.

In this environment we are in now, I would say get what you can get when you can get it and stretch things out over time. And treat people well along the way - it will come back on you.

As a general rule to what you are asking: You should save money and will learn more in the process.

Good luck.
 
I have rarely heard of a factory aircraft engine warranty covering anything but the most egregious manufacturing errors. Alas, I don't put much value on Lycoming factory warranties. I may go so far as to say you will probably get better support out of the box from the likes of Barrett Precision, Victor, Aerosport Power, Popular Grove and Zephyr. After all, most waranty items happen within the first 100 hours. And factories rarely help with the cost of ADs that crop up after delivery.
 
Almost 30-years ago, I purchased a core engine to rebuild for my RV-6. In 1997 when my RV-6 first flew, I had $12,000 in a rebuilt engine that was all paid for with no finance charges. IF you look at what Van was selling new Lycoming engine for at the time, I could have purchased a NEW Lycoming from Van's for $12,000.

The baseline budget for my RV-8 project is a new engine from Van's. The low production numbers keeps parts for our engine high. There are ways to save money but saving money may cost you time. A large part of the value of the finished aircraft is in the engine.
 
Another data point

I bought a mid-time engine from one of the big-name salvagers. It was the left engine off a hail damaged Beech Duchess, with ~ 1200 hours. Cost - 7K. Looked good when received. Fast-forward 6 years. Due to some deplorable lack of preparation/protection by the owner, the decision was made to tear down due to apparent rust in cylinders. 11K later, it turned out to be a good idea, as the cam failed inspection. Now, I have an effectively 0 time engine for 18K. I am pleased with the outcome, ultimately.
 
Engine Buy new or Overhaul

I overhauled my RV9 engine, I had a very runout 320 core off my RV4. Overhauled cylinders, case work, new cam kit, useable crank, and overhauled carb,everything magnafluxed to a certified rebuild. This was several years ago and I had 11K in parts. Parts have increased a lot. I assembled it with the help of a longtime engine rebuilder. That being said I probably wouldn't do it again. The value of the airplane is significantly higher with a factory engine. Also in my other endeavors, I have found salvage operators/individuals will sell you a prop struck engine without a moments second thought. Also, how has the engine been stored, lying in a container or warehouse without any preservation, been there done that as well. As far as Lycoming's factory warranty, I have found them(documented) to go above and beyond even fixing engines that were slightly out of warranty. Another option is to call Lycon they will sell you a guaranteed core and rebuild it for you. Can't say enough good about them standing behind their work. However, when you add the goodies they can do, such as porting , the case o ring etc, the price approaches Vans cost for a new engine.

Good Luck,
Terry
 
I did this for both my planes with good success and saved a LOT. recently, on the 10, I got a prop strike engine from a reseller. I negotiated that both the crank and the case would pass inspection with a yellow tag, otherwise a refund or replacement part that did pass. Everything else I planned to replace with new or yellow tagged items, except some gears and various small parts that still met new tolerances.

While not technically 0 time, I consider it to be so (followed the same specs and guidelines that Lyc uses to 0 time an engine) and the total cost was a good bit less than 1/2 new from Lyc/Vans. I have the knowledge and confidence to do the overhaul and measure tolerances. If you don't, you must factor in a method to get help.

From my research, a crank that has been NDT tested and re-worked is no more likely to fail than a brand new one (have to factor in the ADs on new cranks) and same with the case.

I am not sure that I would buy a used engine to run as is, unless I could confirm it's history over the last several years from a reliable source.

Larry
 
Last edited:
I will skimp a lot of places; shop space, tools, parts off VAF etc.etc.etc. But I will not be putting anything but a new Lycoming on my new airplane.

Having said that, there's a difference between a run out engine and a salvage engine. When it's time to sell, nobody is going to have a problem with a timed out engine that's been rebuilt by a reputable shop, but a lot of people (including me) would balk at an airplane that had an engine with a shady past.

i.e. 2 airplanes for sale, more or less equally equipped, one has an engine that had a prop stroke but dialed out good, the other didn't, I would pay more for option A.

As far as the prices being "through the roof" yeah, Lycoming is expensive, but the engine has always been about 30% of the cost of the airplane. That has held true over the years for Cessnas and Beech products as well.

My opinion only.
 
N40ES said:
WARRANTY, WARRANTY, WARRANTY (Does anyone offer more warranty than a NEW Lycoming?) The price may seem high but in reality you are more than just an engine. You are paying more for Warranty.... Old Yiddish saying: "You can never pay too much for Quality and/or You can never pay too little for Junk"
Click to expand...

Tell that to those who bought a Superior engine with a bad crank
 
Good Point

Does Vans Aircraft offer any other engines besides Lycoming? The Superior Point is well taken, I was referring the original OP as to why I suspect Lycoming is increasing their pricing, we are paying for more than metal & labor & expertise. We are also paying for their Warranty and backing. And yes, maybe a good profit that insures they will still be around in the future if we need them again. Maybe the same reasons we buy kits from Vans Aircraft. :D
 
It depends on why it is a salvage engine. There could be a nice plane with a nice low time engine and the line guy backs the fuel truck into wing a fuselage.
I would buy that salvage engine any day. However I would not touch a 20 year old engine with a field overhaul on it that came off a plane that corroded away on the ramp. Its tough to know what you are getting without knowing the history and circumstances.
 
As has been said, it can be a good deal, but you need to know what you are looking at.
The engine I put in my RV-6 came from a Beechcraft Sport that was flipped over in a wind storm. The Sport was in a flight school in Arizona. Which means that it flew pretty much every day and was based in a dry climate. It was a first run O-320 with 2500 hrs TT. Engine was test run before I bought it and all numbers were good.
I bought it from Air Salvage of Dallas for a great price, flew it for 3 years before I I overhauled it. When I tore it down, I very carefully measured every part and everything was well within serviceable limits. I only rebuilt it to increase hp from 150 to 175.
 
RV6_flyer said:
Almost 30-years ago, I purchased a core engine to rebuild for my RV-6. In 1997 when my RV-6 first flew, I had $12,000 in a rebuilt engine that was all paid for with no finance charges. IF you look at what Van was selling new Lycoming engine for at the time, I could have purchased a NEW Lycoming from Van's for $12,000.

The baseline budget for my RV-8 project is a new engine from Van's. The low production numbers keeps parts for our engine high. There are ways to save money but saving money may cost you time. A large part of the value of the finished aircraft is in the engine.
Click to expand...

Van's prices in 1997...... https://web.archive.org/web/19970628182036/http://www.vansaircraft.com/catalog/engine.htm
 
20 years ago, i bought my engine from wentworth. it was a engine that was out of a no prop strike salvage, with no logs. bought it for core price. gave it a good check out and hung it. 20 years later its still running strong (knock on wood) and has never given me a bit of trouble. I have on cyl that is on watch so I will probably be pulling it down soon for a overhaul we will see what we find inside. I can say I got a great deal for an engine.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top