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Where does the fuel go?

N941WR

Legacy Member
I was talking to another RV owner and he asked why leaving the electric fuel pump on shows a higher than normal fuel burn. His fuel flow meter is between his electric pump and mechanical pump, which then goes to the carburetor.

This is an interesting question. Does leaving the electric pump on, even while the engine is leaned, use more fuel or is it just an erroneous indication. If it using more fuel, where is that fuel going? It can't be burned because the engine is leaned according to the CHTs, so is it going overboard?

I suspect it is just a reading error but have never checked my tanks after a long flight of leaving it on.
 
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I see two options. If the electric pump has a significantly higher PSI, it could require a slightly higher fuel level to keep the needle on the seat and stop fuel flow into the carb bowl. A higher fuel height would increase fuel flow to the engine at any given throttle position/power level (i.e. richer mixture). However, unless the pressure differential is high between the pumps, I don't see this making a meaningful difference in fuel delivery; Maybe a few tenths GPH. Possibly more if the Needle/seat is worn. Fuel height does have a significant effect on fuel delivery, which is why the float height is a critical measurement on a carb. Certainly something to look at here.

The other option would be a flow sensor that is sensitive to PSI, but this seems improbable given the design of these units. I suspect air bubbles in the fuel lines could cause a higher pressure to show different readings. I know these sensors are sensitive to air bubbles.

EDIT: Another option would be a failed diaphragm in the mech. fuel pump. The pressure on the feed side would cause fuel to be pushed through a hole or tear in the diaphragm. This fuel would go out the overflow fitting on the pump. Your buddy can route this line to a container and see if it is collecting fuel. Without the elec pump on, this tear would only introduce air into the delivery side of the pump and reduce pressure and flow. This air makes no significant effect in a carb. The air dissipates in the bowl. This would require immediate attention, as eventually (tear gets worse) fuel delivery will fall below what is required on T/O power levels.

Larry
 
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His fuel flow meter is between his electric pump and the carburetor.
This does not mention where the mech fuel pump is?

It is well known that a FF sensor between the pumps will often overread with both pumps running - which sounds the case here. If, as you say, the fuel was actually being "used", then you would see RPM / EGT effects.
 
I did some work on turbine flow meters years ago. You probably know that these work by using a little propeller wheel spinning inside the flow meter housing - fluid movement spins the turbine, the vanes pass in front of a magnetic or optical pickup, and your instrumentation counts the number of resulting pulses and converts them to a flow rate.

If I recall correctly, one of the odd behaviors you get when you use one of these flow meters in close proximity to a pump is that the pump output can cause the turbine wheel to momentarily jitter back and forth with each stroke of the pump. This causes extra pulses to be seen by the instrumentation, and thus higher fuel flow.

This may not be what actually happens in the airplane, but it's interesting to think about!

mcb
 
Matt has it right......

The type of fuel pump that most RV's use (Facet cube) produces a pressure pulse that transmits down the fuel line. This pressure pulse will influence the rotation rate of the turbine rotor (usually speeds it up) in the fuel flow transducer.
If you install the transducer after the engine driven pump as recommended by many of the computer manufacturers it acts as a buffer to the pulses and usually don't have the error.
It doesn't typically get installed in RV's this way because it adds an extra hose and a lot of additional hose length, which just makes it more susceptible to vapor lock.
Most pilots just use the excess flow reading as a reminder to shut the boost pump off.
 
No Diff

FWIW - My experience (IO-375 with Silverhawk Injection, Red Cube flow meter, old style AFP boost pump setup, Red Cube between boost and mechanical pumps) has been a momentary increase in indicated flow rate when first turning the boost pump on. It then settles right back to the same reading it had before I turned the pump on. Couple of seconds max. The momentary increase is only a couple of tenths. The Red Cube is mounted on the inside of the cabin up against the firewall - so there is at least 1-1/2 ft of fuel line between the outlet of the Boost Pump assembly and the inlet of the Red Cube.
 
FWIW - My experience (IO-375 with Silverhawk Injection, Red Cube flow meter, old style AFP boost pump setup, Red Cube between boost and mechanical pumps) has been a momentary increase in indicated flow rate when first turning the boost pump on. It then settles right back to the same reading it had before I turned the pump on. Couple of seconds max. The momentary increase is only a couple of tenths. The Red Cube is mounted on the inside of the cabin up against the firewall - so there is at least 1-1/2 ft of fuel line between the outlet of the Boost Pump assembly and the inlet of the Red Cube.

The fuel injected engines use a different style of pump. Some of them cause a flow increase and some of them don't.
In my previous post I mentioned the Facet Cube electric pump that is used on RV's (with Carburetors). It will always cause the symptom if the flow transducer is not located after the engine driven pump.
 
I have not personally been inside a red cube, but given the clue, the rest appears easy to figure out. What follows is what I believe happens, give a red cube installed between a vane pump (AFP, Andair, Efii...no pulses) and the engine driven pump.

Nope, not so easy. I've removed my brain-dead theory in an attempt to limit confusion.

Dan
 
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The electric fuel pump pulses the fuel. When it does the fuel surges forward as the pressure builds (even if there is zero fuel flow) and then backwards after each pulse as the pressure is reduced. The flow meter reads the forward pulse, but not the reverse pulse. The further the red cube is from the pump, the less noticeable the "apparent" fuel flow because there is less compressible fuel in-front of the cube.
 
When we turn on the electric fuel pump, pressure is increased at A. The restriction is fixed, so the pressure delta between A and B is increased. A slightly higher percentage of the fuel flow is routed through the bypass, increasing the rotor rotation a few more clicks per time interval

Dan, How can the delta pressure from point A to point B change without the TOTAL flow changing? With the boost pump on and the total flow being the same, wouldn't the B pressure rise the same amount that the A pressure went up to result in the same delta pressure though the orifice?
 
Dan, How can the delta pressure from point A to point B change without the TOTAL flow changing?

Total flow....gee, that's a good argument. Where's my dunce cap?

Ok, trash can the last two paragraphs (I'll mark 'em in the previous post).

Based on evidence, do you think the schematic is correct?

Hmm, just saw Tony's post...not a split flow. Confirm or deny with EI tomorrow. If it's not split, then it's all nonsense.
 
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I have a spare red cube laying in the shop. Want me to diasect it? ....or how ever you spell that word.
 
Tony's post leads to another thought. Several folks have commented regarding pressure pulses from the electric pump. Perhaps true with a Facet, but I doubt there is any significant pressure oscillation in the output of the rotary pumps used with fuel injection.

However, there would be a pressure oscillation caused by the engine driven diaphragm pump, when the electric pump is off.

Tony, did you find a need to tweak the calibration settings after installing the bulb?

I have a spare red cube laying in the shop. Want me to diasect it? ....or how ever you spell that word.

Let's see what EI has to say first, unless of course you get real, real bored after dinner ;)
 
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Injector Pumps

Has anyone taken an airflow performance pump apart? If it is a vane pump I can visualize pulses.
 
When I talked to the red cube folks a couple years ago, they indicated there was not a split flow.

$30 will eliminate the problem.

Worked for me.

Tony

Yup, it is basically a miniature version of what is used in plumbing on homes to stop water hammer (google it).
Uses the dynamic interaction of a captured air bubble to absorb the pressure pulses. They typically need to be drained occasionally, because over time they can fill with fuel.
 
(Text in red is a dumb argument, see post 10 )When we turn on the electric fuel pump, pressure is increased at A. The restriction is fixed, so the pressure delta between A and B is increased. A slightly higher percentage of the fuel flow is routed through the bypass, increasing the rotor rotation a few more clicks per time interval.


I'll link this to EI and and let you know what they say.

If this were true, the entire design would be highly dependant upon pressure upstream and downstream of the sensor in order to be accurate. These were designed for and have proven to work across a wide variety of pressures without re-calibration.

Larry
 
If I'm not mistaken, gerotor & roller vane style pumps (typical automotive in-line positive displacement pumps that are appearing in experimental a/c boost pump setups) do have pressure pulses, but they are at a very high frequency compared to something like a Facet cube. Whether the fuel flow sensors are capable of responding to pulses that fast and small, I don't know.

Newer automotive in-tank pumps are turbine style pumps (the impeller looks basically like a fan). According to some Walbro (fuel pump) engineer, the switch was so the car's computer could safely pulse-width modulate the pressure/flow & eliminate the need for a separate mechanical regulator and return line. Supposedly, gerotor pumps don't tolerate PWM drive very well.

Charlie
 
Tony, did you find a need to tweak the calibration settings after installing the bulb?

Had a Flowscan and no bulb in the -3. Was aware of the flow issues, so when I redid the fuel system in the -4 I installed a bulb. So I never went from no bulb to bulb in the same system.

Having the flow kick up a few gph when the pump is on isn't really a big deal, until you realize you've been flying for 3 hours with the pump on.

Tony
 
If I'm not mistaken, gerotor & roller vane style pumps (typical automotive in-line positive displacement pumps that are appearing in experimental a/c boost pump setups) do have pressure pulses, but they are at a very high frequency compared to something like a Facet cube. Whether the fuel flow sensors are capable of responding to pulses that fast and small, I don't know.

An EI FT-60 red cube transducer converts flow to frequency to the tune of about 19 Hz per gal/hr. So for certain values of "fast", I could certainly see this having an effect.

mcb
 
I have suspected the erroneous readings were from reversing flow. Between the two pumps, there are a couple springs and accumulators in the low pressure pump systems. The rotor cannot distinguish between forward and reverse flow, so reported flow is erroneously high.

Just a theory...
 
I have the issue in my -10. It has the stock fuel system with a Flowscan meter left over from my racing days. With the pump on I get a significant increase of indicated flow.

The increase of flow is NOT real. The EGTs do not change when pump is switched off and the flow "decreases". The meter is calibrated with the pump off.

In the Reno racer I worked on, we had two flow meters because we used a fuel rail and flowed 90GPH in the rail at all times. Fuel flow was the delta. I put two Flowscan accumulators in the system and they made it much more accurate. Having straight inlet and outlet lines is also critical with the Flowscan. At best we had about a 5 to 10% error, up and down between readings. The JPI 930 engine instrument saved data at 2 second intervals, and the variation was between individual data points.

As I recall, having worked with a few Flowscan meters, they do not have a bypass.
 
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So glad this thread is active right now. I have this same issue when my boost pump is on in an O-320 equipped -6. When the boost pump is on fuel flow reads between 12 and 15 GPH depending on the phase of flight. With it off reading are normal between 8 and 10 GPH.

Glad to know there are some cures for this.

Hank
 
Looking Closely from the Outside

I have not disassembled my spare fuel flow transducer so all of this information is based on inspection from the external. I was able to look inside of the In and Out ports and see what appeared to be a paddle style wheel protruding into the fuel stream. Made into the side of the paddle was what appeared to be an interrupt disk to trip a photo cell pick-up.

It is also possible that the part of the wheel that I am referring to as a Photo Cell Interrupt Disk may be a gear that is driving something lower in the housing that I cannot see

In the pictures the paddle appears to obstruct the flow but it looks like the cavity that holds the wheel is hollowed out and somewhat larger so that in the event of a locked wheel there can still be adequate flow.


I tried to draw a sketch to give an idea of what I see inside the port. The hole is fairly small and very hard to get a clear picture of the paddle.

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20150310_065557.jpg

20150310_065545.jpg

Fuel%2BFlow%2BPaddle.jpg
 
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Opened a conversation with EI yesterday, which I expect to continue today with emphasis on the "why".

So far...

(1) There is no side passage. Tech said flow is straight through (no swirl passage like a Flowscan), which is what Joel's photos seem to show.

(2) Must install with the wire facing up. Tech said the "why" is because facing down may trap air in the rotor cavity. Makes sense, looking at the photos, which seem to show the rotor on the bottom. I'm guessing that it is fine in any position that does not trap air.

(3) Rotor interrupts the beam from a light source, 68,000 per gallon, so the signal (as Matt said) works out to be a tad less than 19hz per gallon per hour (18.888). A 10 GPH flow would be 188hz. For my 390, min WOT fuel requirement per the manual is 17.5 GPH, or 329hz.

(4) The engine driven pump is driven by a half-speed idler gear, so it would oscillate flow in a start-stop pattern at one cycle = 1/2 RPM....for example, 22.5hz at 2700.
 
Not much progress with EI.

The official position is that the FT-60 (Red Cube) transducer is to be located downstream of all pumps (rather than between the boost pump and the engine driven pump, or between the tank and the pumps), because:

...the installation location that was referenced is a safety concern. When fuel is pushed thru the transducer there is little to no chance of vapor lock. When pulling fuel thru the transducer there is a decent chance of vapor lock if there is an air leak.

Regarding the "why" of increased flow indication with the electric pump ON:

...the indication that is being seen is only in the case of installing the transducer in the incorrect location. This is why we are not particularly interested in the source of the indication error.
 
If the Red Cube is located between the FI servo and spider, there should no increase in flow upon increase in fuel pressure. The servo (also called the fuel regulator) has a diaphram-actuated ball and seat specifically to assure fuel flow is a function of only servo inlet air velocity .... and independent of fuel pressure.
My Red Cube is located between servo and spider and I see no change in flow with the booster pump on or off. I do see a ~2-3 psi increase in fuel pressure, however.
 
I guess it is just the nature of the beast...

I started a conversation with one of the manufactures of flow sensors a few days ago as a result of this post and I thought it was worth sharing. I am going to leave out names for the obvious reason.

< Me> Dear ?Company Representative?,

I have just built a Richard VanGrunsven designed RV-9 airplane and I have a question about the fuel flow. My plane has a Lycoming Fuel injected engine with an electrical fuel pump ahead of a mechanical fuel pump. I have also installed a ?Company? sensor after the electric fuel pump.

My fuel flow goes up noticeable when I turn on the electric fuel pump and it has been suggested that if I install a pulsation dampers it might correct the problem. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts?

Thanks for your time.

Dean Eiland


<Company Representative> Hello Dean,

This sounds like an interesting problem. The most common issue when a reading goes high is that bubbles are getting in the fuel line and going past the sensor. If it is this type of problem then adding a pulsation damper will not help.

A pulsation damper would help if the issue is caused by pulsation coming from the fuel injection pump downstream. However from your email it sounds like the issue is more closely related to the powering of the electric lift pump.

My supervisor has left for the day but I will ask him tomorrow on his thoughts about this. He has a longer history with the product and may have some additional thoughts. In the meantime can you give me a rough idea of how far (in fuel hose) is the sender from the electric lift pump and the sender from the engine. Also is it possible to move the sender so that it is upstream of the electric lift pump but downstream of any fuel filters. This could fix the issue.

Talk to you soon,

?Company Representative?

<Me> Dear ?Company Representative?,

Thanks for the reply. I have attached a picture of my electric fuel pump assembly and flow meter, while it was still on the table. The mechanical fuel pump is about 2? down line of the flow meter.

I don?t think there would be enough straight pipe in front of the electric fuel pump to install the flow meter between the fuel selector and the electric fuel pump.

Thanks again,
Dean


NEXT DAY
<Company representative> Hi Dean,

?Company? builds and sells aircraft sensors only to authorized avionics companies and aircraft manufacturers. When an order is placed aircraft sensors are manufactured to the customer?s requirements. ?Company? does not sell aircraft sensors to end users, (pilots, owners, mechanics etc.).

All Customer Service and Technical Support is provided to the customer by the avionics company which sold the sensor. These companies are the ones that have aviation engineers and other aviation experts on staff.

Best Regards,

?Company Representative?


<Me> Attorney got to ya?

Thanks anyway,

Dean

<Company Representative> Yes. I almost was fired.

<Me> Sorry. I should have told you up front I have a contagious incurable disease. :rolleyes:
 
Thumper

Your mistake was not telling them it was installed in an airboat.

I suspect the issue is a high frequency pulse (vibration?) in the fluid produced by the electrical fuel injection pump. It would introduce oscillations in the spinning very low mass rotor. The sensor would then double count some, not all, of the tabs on the rotor.

Unfortunately measuring this type of pressure variations requires very sophisticated instrumentation. The pump manufactures most likely would have this information, if they ever measured it.

When the flow sensor is after the engine pump, which operates at a much lower frequency, the high frequency pulsations are damper by the length of fuel line and by the diaphragm in the pump.

I plan on changing to a red cube and moving it into the engine compartment.
 
This phenomenon has been seen on RV's since the early 90's when more economical fuel flow computers hit the market and quickly became popular with RV builders.
The primary two I can think of is Electronics International (E.I.) FP-5 and Matronics Flow Scan.
At that time I think all manufacturers (even Shaden, Vision Micro Systems, etc.) used the flowscan brand transducer.
It has been only in recent years that I.E. began producing their own because the price of the flowscan (which had always been way over priced) began to get totally ridiculous.

So, this is nothing new. It occurs with the E.I. sensor or the flowscan.
I have a feeling that the problem also exists to some degree in a manufacturer recommended installation (sensor after the engine driven pump), but since that pump is never turned off, it is not noticed.... During calibration, K factor adjustments get made to compensate, and since the level of error is constant (engine drive pump is always on), there is never any noticeable error or variation.
I think it might have been Matt (Matronics) that originally introduced the use of an anti hammer device to resolve errors on installation of his units. It is no surprise that contemporary sellers do not care what the cause is, and instead just say "follow the recommended installation procedures".
 
I suspect the issue is a high frequency pulse (vibration?) in the fluid produced by the electrical fuel injection pump. It would introduce oscillations in the spinning very low mass rotor. The sensor would then double count some, not all, of the tabs on the rotor.

When the flow sensor is after the engine pump, which operates at a much lower frequency, the high frequency pulsations are damper by the length of fuel line and by the diaphragm in the pump.

My thoughts exactly - -if it were bubbles causing a volume expansion of fuel, they would not so quickly re-absorb the the short distance and time through the engine pump and servo.

The accumulator mentioned above is cheap enough to install and check one's installation. Thanks for posting it.

" I was almost fired" that is hilarious!! Poor guy.
 
I have suspected the erroneous readings were from reversing flow. Between the two pumps, there are a couple springs and accumulators in the low pressure pump systems. The rotor cannot distinguish between forward and reverse flow, so reported flow is erroneously high.

Agree, and without the springs and accumulators, there can't be a reverse flow. That's the catch to theories based on pressure oscillation alone...gasoline is, in this context, incompressible. Bulk modulus is around 1.9^5 psi. Delta pressure/E=change in volume. All possible pressures in this case are very low, so the change in downstream volume rebound (necessary for a pulse to move the rotor in reverse) would be some really tiny fraction of a percent. For example, a 10 psi oscillation / 190,000 = 0.00005 volume change

As a practical matter, it's compressible enough to transfer a pressure pulse, but lacking an accumulator, there's no actual fluid movement.

The exception might be a case of entrained air bubbles....a whole bunch of little accumulators suspended in the gasoline.
 
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This thread points out a point we often overlook when it comes to instrumentation in general. Just because an instrument says something measures so and so does not mean it is true.

Was talking to someone about CHTs and it wasn't clear to him that the temperature his thermocouple sensor was telling him his cylinder head was, while most likely correct, was only one temperature at one location. The fact the temperature of that very same cylinder just a inch or so away (near the exhaust valve port) was several times as hot was lost on him.

Point being the sensor is only doing what it can, which in this case is count vanes of a paddle going by. Now if the flow is smooth, etc. such can be calibrated and, through the wonders of modern micro-controllers, yield up an accurate measure of what we want - fuel flow. If not then YMMV and you can still count the pulses but they don't represent the same thing anymore.

I have a Matronics FlowScan on my RV-4. Followed Matt's suggestions and put as long a straight portion of fuel line before the sensor to avoid these issues. Well still get erroneous results when I have the electric boost on.

My solution. Turn off the boost. Seriously, the "error" created is a conservative one in that my actual totalized reading on fuel consumption is less than the box counts due to the over-reading while the boost is on. Since the boost is on only for takeoff and landing the overall error is minimal and the error is in the "right way" in that I have more fuel on board than the magic box tells me I do.

I could re-plumb, fool around, and probably get the error eliminated. OR I could fly and enjoy the plane knowing I've probably got maybe a half gallon more on board than the box says. If I ever land with less than 3-4 gallons shoot me anyway.

All our systems are great to have but we need to understand what they are telling us - and also what they are not.
 
I agree with Richard in that our way of operating, there is not a problem here. We should not be landing with less than 5 gals or so in the tank anyway.

This has been an interesting dicussion and a good example as to why I love building the RV and monitoring this forum: It is a great way to learn cool stuff.

Having said that, if the fuel flow sender is installed between the pumps, could it not be that the rubber diaphram/spring in the mechanical pump is acting like an accumulator? Thereby allowing "flow" pulses to exist at the flow sender causing a higher reading?

Bevan
 
Dan

Good point, however the fuel system is not completely rigid internally, in fact it may be somewhat flexible. I think the diaphram in the fuel pump may be the issue. At high frequencies it does not take much.

I think the rotor in these meters is free floating and wobbles when rotating. Since they are very low mass, it would not take much disturbance to cause the small count error we are seeing.

The fact that relocating the meter solves the problem satisfies my internal Engineer, but the mystery still bugs me.
 
Agree, the inflated fuel flow doesn't make much difference if I remember to turn the boost pump off after initial climb. It's an accurate system otherwise. Still, I've been thinking about the cause a fair bit just because it's fun. Planned to test the following before discussion, but there's no telling when I might get to it. So, what the heck...assume a FF sender between a rotary pump and the engine-driven pump, and try this one for size.

There are only two ways the transducer can output more counts. Either fuel flow must actually increase (rotor turns faster, more counts in a given period of time), or the rotor must stop and physically reverse momentarily. Pressure oscillations alone won?t do it. There must be actual reverse flow. Doesn?t take much if the rotor has a lot of shutters. For example, if the rotor has 36 shutters, it would only need to reverse 10 degrees of rotation to add a count.

So, assuming no downstream accumulator, what are the possible sources of reverse flow?

Take a good look at engine-driven pump operation. The accessory case idler gear eccentric moves the pushrod, which pushes the pump lever, which raises the diaphragm, compressing the main pump spring, and moving fuel into the pump chamber through the inlet check valve. As the eccentric nears TDC, the diaphragm motion slows, then stops, as does inlet flow. The inlet check valve is spring loaded (elastomeric or metal spring), so it closes in sync with the motion of the diaphragm. As the eccentric moves beyond TDC, the lever no longer holds the diaphragm in the raised position, and it starts downward, driven by the compressed pump spring. Pump output pressure is a function of spring force. The outlet check valve opens and fuel flows out of the pump chamber.

Note that spring force is not constant. The fully compressed spring pushes the diaphragm harder initially, as compared to later, near the end of its travel. The ?fuel pressure? we see on our panel instrument is an average. Since the far end of the line is open to the servo, actual fuel pressure in the line dropped while the pump was busy with an intake stroke. The initial rush of fuel into the line raises pressure to equal spring force divided by diaphragm area. Line pressure decreases moderately as the spring becomes progressively more relaxed, then drops more quickly as the pump enters another intake cycle.

Now consider what happens when you turn on the boost pump.

The lever raises the diaphragm, but inlet fuel flow does not slow or stop as the eccentric nears TDC. Instead, flow continues through TDC, as the boost pump pushes fuel through the inlet check valve, across the pump chamber, and out the exit check valve. Servo line pressure did not drop during the intake stroke, and as the pump lever releases the pump spring, initial flow is out through both open check valves....the source of reverse flow.

The diaphragm only moves until (spring force/diaphragm) = boost pump pressure. If that happens quickly (weak spring, strong boost pump, i.e. a system in which boost pump pressure is high compared to engine pump pressure), the inlet check valve never fully closes. If the spring is strong and the boost pump is weak (relatively speaking) the check valve would close, but only after a reverse flow pulse while the check valve was in transit.

How to prove or disprove it? The engine driven pump would generate a reverse flow at (RPM/2)/60 = hertz. The rotary electric boost pump used with fuel injection is unlikely to generate a reverse flow, but if it did, it would be at a much higher rate, and it would not vary with engine RPM. So, hook a scope to the transducer output. If the the signal shows regularly spaced clusters of rotor counts (extra counts in a short time period, indicating reverse flow), and the interval at which clusters appear correlates with engine RPM, the engine pump is the source.

So who has a scope program on a laptop?
 
Without working out the math details I wonder if some sort of vortex flow around the wheel is being set up at the higher pressure when the boost pump is on. Just like wing lift theory if the flow is considered a closed vortex plus a steady state lateral flow. The angular speed of the wheel would be the speed of the vortex flow plus the lateral flow while the actual flow out of the sensor would be the lateral flow only.
 
Agree, the inflated fuel flow doesn't make much difference if I remember to turn the boost pump off after initial climb. It's an accurate system otherwise. Still, I've been thinking about the cause a fair bit just because it's fun. Planned to test the following before discussion, but there's no telling when I might get to it. So, what the heck...assume a FF sender between a rotary pump and the engine-driven pump, and try this one for size.

There are only two ways the transducer can output more counts. Either fuel flow must actually increase (rotor turns faster, more counts in a given period of time), or the rotor must stop and physically reverse momentarily. Pressure oscillations alone won’t do it. There must be actual reverse flow. Doesn’t take much if the rotor has a lot of shutters. For example, if the rotor has 36 shutters, it would only need to reverse 10 degrees of rotation to add a count.

So, assuming no downstream accumulator, what are the possible sources of reverse flow?

Take a good look at engine-driven pump operation. The accessory case idler gear eccentric moves the pushrod, which pushes the pump lever, which raises the diaphragm, compressing the main pump spring, and moving fuel into the pump chamber through the inlet check valve. As the eccentric nears TDC, the diaphragm motion slows, then stops, as does inlet flow. The inlet check valve is spring loaded (elastomeric or metal spring), so it closes in sync with the motion of the diaphragm. As the eccentric moves beyond TDC, the lever no longer holds the diaphragm in the raised position, and it starts downward, driven by the compressed pump spring. Pump output pressure is a function of spring force. The outlet check valve opens and fuel flows out of the pump chamber.

Note that spring force is not constant. The fully compressed spring pushes the diaphragm harder initially, as compared to later, near the end of its travel. The “fuel pressure” we see on our panel instrument is an average. Since the far end of the line is open to the servo, actual fuel pressure in the line dropped while the pump was busy with an intake stroke. The initial rush of fuel into the line raises pressure to equal spring force divided by diaphragm area. Line pressure decreases moderately as the spring becomes progressively more relaxed, then drops more quickly as the pump enters another intake cycle.

Now consider what happens when you turn on the boost pump.

The lever raises the diaphragm, but inlet fuel flow does not slow or stop as the eccentric nears TDC. Instead, flow continues through TDC, as the boost pump pushes fuel through the inlet check valve, across the pump chamber, and out the exit check valve. Servo line pressure did not drop during the intake stroke, and as the pump lever releases the pump spring, initial flow is out through both open check valves....the source of reverse flow.

The diaphragm only moves until (spring force/diaphragm) = boost pump pressure. If that happens quickly (weak spring, strong boost pump, i.e. a system in which boost pump pressure is high compared to engine pump pressure), the inlet check valve never fully closes. If the spring is strong and the boost pump is weak (relatively speaking) the check valve would close, but only after a reverse flow pulse while the check valve was in transit.

How to prove or disprove it? The engine driven pump would generate a reverse flow at (RPM/2)/60 = hertz. The rotary electric boost pump used with fuel injection is unlikely to generate a reverse flow, but if it did, it would be at a much higher rate, and it would not vary with engine RPM. So, hook a scope to the transducer output. If the the signal shows regularly spaced clusters of rotor counts (extra counts in a short time period, indicating reverse flow), and the interval at which clusters appear correlates with engine RPM, the engine pump is the source.

So who has a scope program on a laptop?

I like this theory. It is plausible that there is some bulk reverse flow, and if it happens then there is also a pressure change. So measuring pressure along with the rotor triggers should show the correlation. But, is the pressure from the boost pump higher than the mechanical pump? If not then easily it can push fuel back, but if it is higher, then how would it happen then? I have no plane working so someone will have to report what the static pressure on the EFIS of the boost pump alone shows.

Drat, I bid on a good used Rigol 2 channel scope but missed it. I was not properly motivated. I checked on the PC based ones and did not think the performance was high enough (100MHZ), being digital that is.
 
But, is the pressure from the boost pump higher than the mechanical pump? If not then easily it can push fuel back, but if it is higher, then how would it happen then?

Indicated boost pump pressure is typically higher than indicated engine pump pressure, and as you say, if those pressures were real, the engine pump could not force reverse flow back into the feed line. I puzzled over that for a while before realizing the actual pressure in the pump chamber is dependent on diaphragm position; the initial, fully compressed pump spring force is higher than the available force when the spring is extended.

Drat, I bid on a good used Rigol 2 channel scope but missed it. I was not properly motivated. I checked on the PC based ones and did not think the performance was high enough (100MHZ), being digital that is.

Ha! Mine is an ancient BK 15Mhz scope my buddy pulled from the trash bin at Maxwell AFB. I would not have paid money for it, but it has proven to be surprisingly useful. The PC scope software Joel linked looks pretty darn good to me.
 
Agree, and without the springs and accumulators, there can't be a reverse flow. That's the catch to theories based on pressure oscillation alone...gasoline is, in this context, incompressible. Bulk modulus is around 1.9^5 psi. Delta pressure/E=change in volume. All possible pressures in this case are very low, so the change in downstream volume rebound (necessary for a pulse to move the rotor in reverse) would be some really tiny fraction of a percent. For example, a 10 psi oscillation / 190,000 = 0.00005 volume change

As a practical matter, it's compressible enough to transfer a pressure pulse, but lacking an accumulator, there's no actual fluid movement.

The exception might be a case of entrained air bubbles....a whole bunch of little accumulators suspended in the gasoline.

Dan, I've missed a few days - others have chimed in about the accumulators/springs in the pumps. It was those I was referring to in my post. Perhaps the check valves allow enough reverse flow... Some things may just have to remain a mystery...

Just in case this mystery gets solved, I've had my own flow indication mystery since day one. I have the Floscan mounted on the firewall, between the servo and flow divider. I see no fluctuations at all with boost pump on. However, I see bogus readings for the first cold start of the day for about 2 to 4 minutes. It'll show 5 gph at idle as I start to taxi out, then drop to actual of 1.5 or so in a couple minutes. It has done this every single time over 13+ years.
 
Since my -10 is down for painting, I have decided to go to the Red Cube between the injector and the spider. The Flowscan and tube came out today while waiting for paint to dry and a tube went in.

The very interesting persuit of why the increased flow just lost (for now) to the Engineer. Especially one who keeps forgetting to turn off the aux pump and does not trust float fuel senders after one failed in a non conservative direction. ( my wife will never forgive the day the engine in my -6A quit while I was sure there was at least 4 gallons in that tank. The other one read 1/4 full, but we landed right away to get gas about 50 miles from home!)

Two questions for those who have gone down the path of the inline Red Cube without a bracket:

1. What size firesleave goes over the cube?
2. I want use the hose that came with the Lyc and cut it. Which Aeroquip hose/fitting is it?
 
How do the electric fuel pumps work? Is there any way they can be introducing some vorticity (swirling) to the flow, which would cause the red cube's impeller to turn faster?
 
How do the electric fuel pumps work? Is there any way they can be introducing some vorticity (swirling) to the flow, which would cause the red cube's impeller to turn faster?

That is my operating theory and is based on it being the simplest explanation for what is observed.
 
Just in case this mystery gets solved, I've had my own flow indication mystery since day one. I have the Floscan mounted on the firewall, between the servo and flow divider. I see no fluctuations at all with boost pump on. However, I see bogus readings for the first cold start of the day for about 2 to 4 minutes. It'll show 5 gph at idle as I start to taxi out, then drop to actual of 1.5 or so in a couple minutes. It has done this every single time over 13+ years.

I see exactly the same thing, red cube and AFP injection with the cube in the servo-divider line. Changed the cube a few years ago for another problem and the new one acts the same way. Done all the checks I can think of and finally I've decided this is a phenomenon above my pay grade :rolleyes:
 
I see exactly the same thing, red cube and AFP injection with the cube in the servo-divider line. Changed the cube a few years ago for another problem and the new one acts the same way. Done all the checks I can think of and finally I've decided this is a phenomenon above my pay grade :rolleyes:

Walt, that is indeed interesting. I posted some more mystery here...
 
Noise?

I have a RV-7A with a IO-360 with a Flowscan mounted between the AFP (old style) pump and the engine driven pump. I had a D180 and now a Skyview system.

The Flowscan is mounted in the tunnel in the cockpit. I been flying for several years and haven't used the boost pump during takeoff or landing (please lets not debate this on this post) because of the increased flow rates that occur and the effect on the totoalizer when the pump in on.

Recently I started using the pump during takeoffs and the flow rate is somewhere near 3 gph more then without the pump. But I know I am not burning it or pissing it out.

I started thinking about why the flow rates are higher with the pump on. This post talks about pressure pulses but what about electrical noise/interference?

My fuel pump power wires run in parallel with the Flowscan signal wires since booth the pump and the Flowscan are in close proximity of each other (10" apart). The wires to the Flowscan are unshielded.

Could the electrical noise from the pump motor interfere with the Flowscan signal output and cause the increase in fuel flow? If the Flowscan was mounted under the cowl the wiring wouldn't be in parallel with the fuel pump thus reducing the possible electrical noise/interference.

Any thoughts?
 
Could the electrical noise from the pump motor interfere with the Flowscan signal output and cause the increase in fuel flow?

Seems unlikely, given that a lot of us have our Floscan or Red Cube mounted at a location remote from the electric pump, yet have the same indications.

The key is to devise a test to go with a proposed theory. Here a portable o-scope would probably prove or disprove.
 
view


The image shows what I think is happening. The higher pressure sets up a vortex flow around the impeller so it "sees" a higher velocity flow than the actual flow through the device.

I've never taken one of these apart so the drawing is "notional" only.

To me its probably not worth actually figuring this out as the system works for my purposes. My biggest problem in getting accurate results is forgetting to zero out the total used when I refill the tanks!

Yeah I know - should be on the checklist.
 
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