New guy here looking at the -12

Hello all,

I didn't see a sub forum for intro's so I'll start here.

A little about me. I'm in my early 40's with a wife and 2 kids. My wife hates flying but my kids love it. I'm hoping that eventually she will get over her fear of heights...... Either way, at least my kids will fly with me.

Finally, after 15 years of dreaming I will financially be able to start my first plane in about six months. I have researched, read, looked, ect...... and have basically decided on either a -12 or a CH650. I realize that the -12 is way more favored here but in reality, out of these 2, what I build will be based on plane comfort as I see myself taking a couple of long trips a year and many short trips per year.

I have yet to fly in either and each plane has it's own pros and cons but it will still come down to comfort.

Well, I just wanted to say hi to you guys and whatever I build, this is a great forum with a lot of knowledgeable and friendly people.

Welcome to the good ship VAF!
If you are looking for comfortable travel you might want to take a look at the RANS S-19 as well. You would also have the option to certify it for a higher gross weight than the LSA 1320lbs. in case you have a PP license.
Other than that, you will have a hard time finding a kit plane that will build as fast as the RV-12 goes together.

The 12's are definitely a nice plane and my plan is to fly in one next week. There's a nice fellow local to me who has one and offered me a ride. So that may seal the deal.

MacPara said:

Welcome to the good ship VAF!
If you are looking for comfortable travel you might want to take a look at the RANS S-19 as well. You would also have the option to certify it for a higher gross weight than the LSA 1320lbs. in case you have a PP license.
Other than that, you will have a hard time finding a kit plane that will build as fast as the RV-12 goes together.

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I would add one factor to think about and that is useful load. When I started building I was 250 lbs and my wife lets say was 35 lbs heavier then she is now. The only LSA kit we could fly with enough fuel was the RV-12. The Rans S19 only has about 500 lbs of useful load. The Ch650 has 550 lbs.

My wife and I at one time lost 100 lbs together now we still at about 75 lbs less so it will even be easier in the RV12. From a kit building perspective I keep hearing the same thing; the RV12 is king. It is an amazing plane with one of the best LSA's performance.

Just my 0.02

Peter

pietermk said:

I would add one factor to think about and that is useful load. When I started building I was 250 lbs and my wife lets say was 35 lbs heavier then she is now. The only LSA kit we could fly with enough fuel was the RV-12. The Rans S19 only has about 500 lbs of useful load. The Ch650 has 550 lbs.

My wife and I at one time lost 100 lbs together now we still at about 75 lbs less so it will even be easier in the RV12. From a kit building perspective I keep hearing the same thing; the RV12 is king. It is an amazing plane with one of the best LSA's performance.

Just my 0.02

Peter

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I'm right there with you on the weight issue. One of the things that has narrowed it to the 650 or -12 is the useful load. Zenith shows the useful load at 630lbs on their website for the 601 with the Rotax. I emailed Zenith for a clarification to see if its the same in the 650.

Ultimately, it will come down to which plane is more comfortable. I've seen the plans for the -12 and they were great and there's no question that RV's are held in high regard by lots of people.

One thing I really like about the 650 though is the ability to carry 30 gallons of fuel so each plane has things to like.

After my test ride in the -12 and the test ride in the 650, only then can I make a decision. One things for sure, from all of the articles I've read on both the -12 and 650, they are both great planes.

FYI
Stephen Garrett has an RV12 at Paris, TX. (At an air park near town.)
You can search for him in this forum and I'll bet he would be willing to let you have a good look at his plane.

Sorry but

In my opinion, you may not be 'ready' for either kit. Your wife hates flying? And you are going to spent upwards of 70K for an RV-12 kit? Can you afford the divorce and still have the 12?

I was in your shoes when I was 40 - never considered divorce, had 4 kids and the moral responsibility to at least see them thru college. Couldn't afford an airplane or even many flying lessons.

Never had the backing of my ex about most anything. The point here is, if at all possible, try to find a way for your wife to 'like' flying. It will go much better for you if she is on board - supporting you and your dream. Maybe a few lessons or? Best to you.

E. D. Eliot said:

In my opinion, you may not be 'ready' for either kit. Your wife hates flying? And you are going to spent upwards of 70K for an RV-12 kit? Can you afford the divorce and still have the 12?

I was in your shoes when I was 40 - never considered divorce, had 4 kids and the moral responsibility to at least see them thru college. Couldn't afford an airplane or even many flying lessons.

Never had the backing of my ex about most anything. The point here is, if at all possible, try to find a way for your wife to 'like' flying. It will go much better for you if she is on board - supporting you and your dream. Maybe a few lessons or? Best to you.

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I'm sorry your wife didn't support you on most anything but not everyone is like that. My wife is scared of heights, not scared of me flying. She backs me on building and owning the plane, just not flying. She doesn't like to fly commercially either. My kids and I ride/race dirt bikes and she doesn't do that either but she still supports it.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you but for you to say I'm not ready based on your experience is reaching a little.

sf3543 said:

FYI
Stephen Garrett has an RV12 at Paris, TX. (At an air park near town.)
You can search for him in this forum and I'll bet he would be willing to let you have a good look at his plane.

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Steve is a nice guy. I met him when we were having EAA meetings at the local airport. He also has a really nice -12.

I might also point out that the 12 is available fly-away at about the same cost as the kit. We can have one built for you as a school project. Takes usually less time than it would take you to build it, and you give over a dozen kids their start in aviation. $80k with lights, full interior and paint.

Bob

videobobk said:

I might also point out that the 12 is available fly-away at about the same cost as the kit. We can have one built for you as a school project. Takes usually less time than it would take you to build it, and you give over a dozen kids their start in aviation. $80k with lights, full interior and paint.

Bob

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A great option but this is going to be a father son project. At 11, my son already helps service his own dirt bike. Things like removing wheels, air filters, transmission oil changes, ect..... He's as excited as me about doing this.

GhostRider32 said:

I'm sorry your wife didn't support you on most anything but not everyone is like that. My wife is scared of heights, not scared of me flying. She backs me on building and owning the plane, just not flying. She doesn't like to fly commercially either. My kids and I ride/race dirt bikes and she doesn't do that either but she still supports it.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you but for you to say I'm not ready based on your experience is reaching a little.

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I agree. In 2004 when I decided to build a plane I was trying to give my wife all the reasons for US to own a plane, all the things WE could do, and all places THE TWO OF US could go. She doesn't like to fly and all I got was resistance.

We were at Sun 'n Fun and I got her into the Sonex and sat beside her and told her all the rationale over and over again. Tony Spicer was there, watching and listening, and when we got out he pulled me over and said "Stop trying to convince her that SHE needs the plane. Only convince her that YOU want the plane and that she does not have to fly with you if she doesn't want to."

I followed his advice and as soon as she felt that she didn't have to fly with me she was behind me 150%. Helped when I needed it, never said a word about costs, encouraged me when I was down, gave me more support that I could ever have expected.

That was 2004. I completed the Sonex in 2006 and sold it in 2011. I then bought my RV-4. She still has not flown with me, and she still supports my flying habit 100%.

I'll never forget one day I came home from flying and working on the plane. She said to me "You smell good, you smell like airplanes."

Think I'll keep her for another 35 years...

ccsmith51 said:

She still has not flown with me, and she still supports my flying habit 100%.

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I'm in the same boat, wife wont fly in small airplanes but supports the building and flying. When my RV-4 broke down for the final time just after I retired last year she insisted I go buy a flying aircraft while I finish the Rocket (opted for the Super Decathlon).

My kids and some of the spouses all like to go flying with Dad when they come home, and time will tell if the grandkids like it too.

No complaints from here!

SMO said:

...When my RV-4 broke down for the final time...

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That sounds serious! I have an RV-4 and would like to know what "broke down" so badly that you replaced it. What did you do with it? Thanks,

Caution: Thread Drift!

ccsmith51 said:

I have an RV-4 and would like to know what "broke down" so badly that you replaced it. What did you do with it? ,

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Wow, where do I start. Here is the short version:

- Aileron bearing
- Elevator and Aileron control stops
- Reskinned 1 elevator (horn too close to HS)
- Replaced the engine (450 hours on rebuild, corroded cam)
- Replaced failed mag with a Pmag
- Replaced alternator after in flight failure
- Replaced exhaust system after in flight failure
- Built and replaced fuel tanks
- Replaced ELT with 406
- Redid the panel (not failure related)
- Installed electric elevator trim (not failure related)
- CS Prop failed on T&G (would not go into fine pitch)
- Upon decowling also found a crack in the engine mount
- Found cracks in the firewall behind the engine mount

Threw my hands in the air and said "Uncle". Advertised it on VAF and Barnstormers "as is, where is". I was not going to spend another dollar or another hour on it other than helping load it on someone else's trailer to get it out of my hangar. Sold it for $32k, net loss about $30k.

I owned it for 5 years. During that time I put about 150 hours on it, and probably spent 750 hours working on it, a 5:1 ratio. In the 10 months I have had the Decathlon I have put about 70 hours on it and spent 10 hours on it doing the annual - the local AME spent about 8 hours, about 20 times better. No parts required.

Lesson learned: I went looking for and bought the cheapest RV-4 I could find with a CS prop. Big mistake. Prebuy inspection by a recommended RV guy didn't help me much. When I went looking for the Decathlon I looked for the nicest used one I could find, and paid the price. Has been well worth it.

Oh, and I forgot the fuel pump woes, engine driven one failed in flight over the Rockies (that's a heart thumper for ya), and the boost pump was replaced because it was making so much noise I thought it was on its last legs.

I'm getting depressed all over again just writing this, think I'll go roll around in the sky with the Decathlon to get my head back on straight!

GhostRider32 said:

One thing I really like about the 650 though is the ability to carry 30 gallons of fuel so each plane has things to like.

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Is the 30 gallons important to you because of the distance you can fly in one go? If so think about this, a Rotax burns 5 gallons an hour, so you could fly 6 hours right? Can your bladder fly six hours? I always notice that when you fly you have to pee more or earlier when walking around. I think it has to do with the fact that sit and "compress" your abdomen and therefore your bladder.

On my longer flights I notice that 2 to 2.5 hours is about the longest I can go. And no I am not 90 years old

Peter

A couple of notes: The 650 brochure says it may meet the requirements or a light sport aircraft and the 12, built to plan, does. As I read the brochure, the 650 has 24 gal. fuel. 30 may put you out of the LS limits on weight, I don't know. Being light sport may or may not be important to you. Compare resale prices as that can be important, and is a good gauge of real value. And while you are absolutely correct that there are pluses to each plane out there, the relative numbers being built are a pretty good indicator of which plane has the most. Build costs are virtually the same, comparing apples to apples and panels to panels. Talk to people who have flown both. Finally, and most importantly, fly both. I think you will find both are comfortable. I don't think you will find both flying equally well.

Bob

Having recently started a 12 I can't tell you how fast this build is, even compared to other RV kits.

The plans are well laid out and lead you step by step. Unless you've built before its difficult to imagine how time saving it is or how much frustration at trying to figure something out is reduced. Hundred's pages of plans are just pages with writing unless they can lead you to the end goal. Boy does Van's have that base covered!

This is the fourth aircraft we've started to build. The first was an RV-9A. Compared to the other 2, it was easy, but I still spent a lot of time scratching my head. We stalled on that, in part because we were waiting to see what the 10 was like (too expensive for me) and then life got in the way. I still have the emp laying around...maybe someday...

Long story short, the next was a Cozy Mk IV (think epoxy fumes and sanding and sanding and...). My current environment didn't allow for a temp controlled work area so that meant reduced build time through out the year. This could take forever, or at least my forever...

Then just for a fun project a Hummel Ultracruiser. 26 pages of plans and basically no build manual. I discovered I'm not yet a plans builder (at least on that level). Did I say fun? I missed that part...but that was just me and inexperience walking hand in foot, behind the head with my shoulder twisted.

Now the 12. Very little time spent being frustrated by not understanding and everything goes together quickly; step by step, all spelled out. We put the rudder together in two nights work in the garage, after work. We finished up the VS the next evening. We're starting the HS today and I can't imagine this will take very long. The fuse bulkheads are done except for the bulkhead that holds on the emp. That has six bucked rivets to do yet.

My only regret is that I haven't ordered the rest of the kit yet. That should happen next week. I should be ready for engine and panel the beginning of next year.

If I had to do again (and I looked at the 650), I wouldn't change a thing. This is really my first real build and the chance I'll actually complete it are higher than I ever imagined. Fast to build, simple but detailed instructions, accurately cut, bent and pre-drilled parts make my confidence level high and my chance to succeed a virtual given.

I can't wait to fly!

Bob

My experience from years ago - -

Getting in and out of the low wing Zeniths is more difficult to me. ( a bunch actually ). HATE standing on the seat. Built times are greater since you have to do more drilling etc. Have a friend who built an S-19 Rans. Takes much longer, and carries less weight. Rotax is expensive, but with my experience, and friends, I'd say the Rotax is 200% better than whatever might be in 2nd place. FOR SURE, get in and out of any you might consider. Also I think you will find visibility is far better in the RV-12. Resale I'm guessing will be better on the RV-12.

That would mean landing in some field with no fuel left, an action that would empty my bladder even before touchdown!

pietermk said:

Is the 30 gallons important to you because of the distance you can fly in one go? If so think about this, a Rotax burns 5 gallons an hour, so you could fly 6 hours right?

Peter

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See this thread: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=95700
In addition to those observations, there are some well designed mods to add an additional 5 gallon 'flat-on-the-baggage-floor' plastic tank in the back of the RV-12 with transfer to the main tank. My normal x/c mission profile is fly 3 hours, land with an hours fuel. This could make that 4. Even three is a lot in a small plane.
Bill H

Glad you're looking at LSA!

I would recommend renting a little and seeing if you can take the other half with you. The Evektor is probably the closest thing you will be able to rent that is like the -12. I think they rent them at DTO. Its worth getting checked out and trying it.

If you are introducing someone to flying (spouse, friends, etc), I highly recommend NOT doing it in the summer in TX. Even mornings in June, July and Aug are going to be hot and bumpy in a LSA, or at least it will seem that way to non-flyers.

If its clear you're going to be doing it solo, well, that's a tough call, but do what works for you.

TODR

GhostRider32 said:

A great option but this is going to be a father son project. At 11, my son already helps service his own dirt bike. Things like removing wheels, air filters, transmission oil changes, ect..... He's as excited as me about doing this.

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You are right about it being a great F/S project. Since all I do is teach kids how to build RV-12s, I can give you some help here. At 11, no matter how adept, he won't cut your build time. He will have fun, and do good work, but he won't be able to do much on his own. By the time you get to the fuselage, that will probably change. 14 is about the minimum where things really start to pick up. There are two "Ah-ha" moments with a kid, the first where he understands he can do the work, and the second where he realizes that there is a difference between doing it, and doing it well. It is difficult to teach, but you will see that moment arrive. It is a big thrill! The work will actually slow down, but it will all of a sudden be pretty. It is at that point you can walk away and work will get done.

Bob

videobobk said:

You are right about it being a great F/S project. Since all I do is teach kids how to build RV-12s, I can give you some help here. At 11, no matter how adept, he won't cut your build time. He will have fun, and do good work, but he won't be able to do much on his own. By the time you get to the fuselage, that will probably change. 14 is about the minimum where things really start to pick up. There are two "Ah-ha" moments with a kid, the first where he understands he can do the work, and the second where he realizes that there is a difference between doing it, and doing it well. It is difficult to teach, but you will see that moment arrive. It is a big thrill! The work will actually slow down, but it will all of a sudden be pretty. It is at that point you can walk away and work will get done.

Bob

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I guess I hadn't really thought about it cutting my build time but more as a project that he will always remember and on top of that, teaching him skills that will last a lifetime.

pietermk said:

Is the 30 gallons important to you because of the distance you can fly in one go? If so think about this, a Rotax burns 5 gallons an hour, so you could fly 6 hours right? Can your bladder fly six hours? I always notice that when you fly you have to pee more or earlier when walking around. I think it has to do with the fact that sit and "compress" your abdomen and therefore your bladder.

On my longer flights I notice that 2 to 2.5 hours is about the longest I can go. And no I am not 90 years old

Peter

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The 30 gallons or six hours is more for a return trip and not having to refuel. There are lots of places within 2 to 2.5 hours I can fly for little overnight trips and make the return trip without refueling with high priced 100ll if I had the 30 gallon tank. It's not a deal breaker, just something that would be nice to have.

Overall, I will probably get the -12, and use the 6 gal mod I read about, that would be ok too.

GhostRider32 said:

The 30 gallons or six hours is more for a return trip and not having to refuel. There are lots of places within 2 to 2.5 hours I can fly for little overnight trips and make the return trip without refueling with high priced 100ll if I had the 30 gallon tank. It's not a deal breaker, just something that would be nice to have.

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In the CT, it was great having 34 gal usable fuel for that same reason. It also meant you could fill up on mogas before the trip, make a out and back trip and have plenty of reserve and not have to buy 100LL.

I really think 600 lb of usable load is perfect for an LSA. That allows for 2x 200lb people, a little baggage, and 30 gal of fuel. We used to have 605 lb

TODR

GhostRider32 said:

I guess I hadn't really thought about it cutting my build time but more as a project that he will always remember and on top of that, teaching him skills that will last a lifetime.

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You are really on track here. The skills aren't really things like how to pull a rivet, but teamwork, following instructions, and pride. We define pride as Personal Responsibility In Daily Effort. You will see that grow--in spades!

Bob

Not much advantage to more fuel...

GhostRider32 said:

The 30 gallons or six hours is more for a return trip and not having to refuel. There are lots of places within 2 to 2.5 hours I can fly for little overnight trips and make the return trip without refueling with high priced 100ll if I had the 30 gallon tank. It's not a deal breaker, just something that would be nice to have.

Overall, I will probably get the -12, and use the 6 gal mod I read about, that would be ok too.

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Just thinking, but the difference in price between 6 gallons of 100LL and Mogas is only about 12 bucks, not even enough to pay for a lunch for two people. You may want to reconsider carrying a loose bladder of fuel in the cockpit in order to save such a small amount. I think those bladders are intended for back country operations where fuel may not be available. These low wing tri-gear aircraft are not well suited to that mission. Also consider that the RV-12 baggage compartment is limited to 50 pounds total.

The 20 gallon tank is a good compromise in the -12 for range, useful load and CG considerations, IMHO.

Tony

Another thing to consider....

Tony_T said:

Just thinking, but the difference in price between 6 gallons of 100LL and Mogas is only about 12 bucks, not even enough to pay for a lunch for two people. You may want to reconsider carrying a loose bladder of fuel in the cockpit in order to save such a small amount. I think those bladders are intended for back country operations where fuel may not be available. These low wing tri-gear aircraft are not well suited to that mission. Also consider that the RV-12 baggage compartment is limited to 50 pounds total.
The 20 gallon tank is a good compromise in the -12 for range, useful load and CG considerations, IMHO.
Tony

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6 gallons of fuel weighs 36 lbs. plus the weight of the tank.
Watch your W&B!

Tony_T said:

Just thinking, but the difference in price between 6 gallons of 100LL and Mogas is only about 12 bucks, not even enough to pay for a lunch for two people.

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There are reduced maintenance intervals and increased costs running the 912 on 100LL. IIRC, Oil changes are now 25 hr and plugs at 50, and gearbox overhauls are more frequent and costly due to the lead build up. So its at least a couple $/hr cheaper running on mogas.

TODR

the_other_dougreeves said:

There are reduced maintenance intervals and increased costs running the 912 on 100LL. IIRC, Oil changes are now 25 hr and plugs at 50, and gearbox overhauls are more frequent and costly due to the lead build up. So its at least a couple $/hr cheaper running on mogas.

TODR

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We are only talking about an occasional use of 100LL, and even then it would be a mix with Mogas. There would be no addition maintenance issues, in fact one Rotax mechanic we know claims the cleanest engines he has seen were run on a mix of Mogas and Avgas. I am skeptical of that but he has 30 years of experience.

Tony

DonFromTX said:

That would mean landing in some field with no fuel left, an action that would empty my bladder even before touchdown!

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Haha Don you are right

Compare the real empty weights and the real cruise speeds. The RV-12 has very,very nice handling and superb visibility.

I bet that with a careful look at these things, it'll be an easy decision.

Dave

I went for a ride in Steve's -12 last night, what a great plane. It was really smooth and the controls were really light and Steve did a great job building his plane. I haven't been in a 650 yet but the -12 is going to be really hard to beat. Even at a heavy load, the 912 was ably to lift us off a grass runway and climb just fine. I'm about 6 months from starting my plane but after riding in Steve's -12, I wanted to go home and order the kit then......