david.perl
Well Known Member
Im fitting a dynon SV and wondered if there is a need for external warning lights? I see others have fitted these - does the SV not display warnings?
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External annunciators
- Thread starter david.perl
- Start date
Warning Lights
When something is going wrong, you have a "Warning Light" that lights up in the right hand bottom of your screen. Press the button below and you get a listing of issues so in my mind - not really needed. You also get a "Warning" audio alert that indicates you should heed the warning light and press button underneath to see what's going on.
When something is going wrong, you have a "Warning Light" that lights up in the right hand bottom of your screen. Press the button below and you get a listing of issues so in my mind - not really needed. You also get a "Warning" audio alert that indicates you should heed the warning light and press button underneath to see what's going on.
GalinHdz
Well Known Member
Do you absolutely need it? No. But in my opinion it is a very good to have. The regular SV indication is in the bottom right part of the screen and, unless you have the audio also connected, easily overlooked.
I placed external annunciators above the SV display in my regular line of sight/scan area. Amazing how quickly it brings your attention to the alarm.
My 2 cents.
I placed external annunciators above the SV display in my regular line of sight/scan area. Amazing how quickly it brings your attention to the alarm.
My 2 cents.
dlloyd3
Well Known Member
There is no reason not to connect the audio, it does a good job announcing any of a host of alerts. I have had an oil pressure sensor become erratic over the last month. Having Betty say loudly "Oil Pressure" does get your attention at least as well as another light on the panel. Sensor replaced today, all is well.
I used to be a big proponent of annunciators, and have installed a number of own into my personal planes. That being said, they are pretty much dinosaur's anymore. The reason is that with a master caution or master warning, it's likely (almost 100% likely) that your EFIS / Engine monitor will tell you about any problems both on the PFD/MFD and in your ears long before you notice a light on your panel. This might not seem intuitive, but I've found it to be almost an absolute. Not only that, but all of the popular EFIS systems have user defined inputs for other alarms that aren't defaulted in the system (things like door ajar, canopy close, gear, etc..) that you can program. Additionally, most of the EFIS system will force you to at least acknowledge any of the warnings/cautions and will keep flashing those messages until you clear the issue (or acknowledge the warning).
We still install some for folks on systems that are independent of their main systems (like smoke systems, standby alternators, "oooops, I left the master on", or other user defined things), but as a whole there isn't much of a demand anymore. Yes you can install then, but unless you have something to test your light (or check it every flight), you might not even have a reliable lamp that lights when you need it to.
Overall, I'd say for the normal things that you really care about such as oil pressure, fuel pressure, speeds, pitot heat, etc.. the EFISes will be quite far superior (and likely ahead of our brains anyway).
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
We still install some for folks on systems that are independent of their main systems (like smoke systems, standby alternators, "oooops, I left the master on", or other user defined things), but as a whole there isn't much of a demand anymore. Yes you can install then, but unless you have something to test your light (or check it every flight), you might not even have a reliable lamp that lights when you need it to.
Overall, I'd say for the normal things that you really care about such as oil pressure, fuel pressure, speeds, pitot heat, etc.. the EFISes will be quite far superior (and likely ahead of our brains anyway).
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
vlittle
Well Known Member
I have found that with single efis panels, the external annunciators make a lot of sense. The amount of room for engine and annunciators info on the efis makes it difficult to scan.
Also, you do not always want an alarm on status lines --fuel pump, pitot or smoke comes to mind.
It is easy to control the lamps with one of the annunciators controllers from MakerPlane, which support dimming and testing of any lamp polarity.
Also, you do not always want an alarm on status lines --fuel pump, pitot or smoke comes to mind.
It is easy to control the lamps with one of the annunciators controllers from MakerPlane, which support dimming and testing of any lamp polarity.
Bill_H
Well Known Member
In the old days, In the world of process control (refineries, chemical plants, power plants) stand-alone controllers and "external annunciators" (arrays of light bulbs illuminating things like "Tank 202 HI LVL" were the norm. In the 80s and 90s modern computerized control systems replaced these old control systems. These have sophisticated and capable alarm systems. The old annunciators have hung on in some cases for a few years but are being consigned to the ash heap of history where they belong.
If you bought sophisticated avionics, the best thing is to learn to use them in the way they are intended. Don't keep dragging along the ancient techniques and paradigms of the past. A "master warning" light just tells you to look at the same screen that is showing the warning anyway...
And incidentally, proper alarm annunciation involves both a visual and audible component, not just a visual one. Modern avionics reflect much thought and research in their human factors design. Embrace it. In fact, the process industry is learning much from the aviation sector.
Why do I have such a strong opinion? Search Amazon for "The Alarm Management Handbook" and "The High Performance HMI Handbook."
Bill H. RV12 N412BR "Sweetie" Dynon Skyview
If you bought sophisticated avionics, the best thing is to learn to use them in the way they are intended. Don't keep dragging along the ancient techniques and paradigms of the past. A "master warning" light just tells you to look at the same screen that is showing the warning anyway...
And incidentally, proper alarm annunciation involves both a visual and audible component, not just a visual one. Modern avionics reflect much thought and research in their human factors design. Embrace it. In fact, the process industry is learning much from the aviation sector.
Why do I have such a strong opinion? Search Amazon for "The Alarm Management Handbook" and "The High Performance HMI Handbook."
Bill H. RV12 N412BR "Sweetie" Dynon Skyview
That's sort of my point....despite that we think about "scan's" or watching instruments, the fact is that very few folks actually will be looking at something the instant there is a problem. Most folks don't realize how much time you don't actually look at that stuff, even if you have it.
Status lights are sort of the same. A perfect example is the fuel pump light. It's a light you put in to see if the fuel pump is on. Since it's on many times in an RV (especially for injected folks - some folks do it when switching tanks), its a light that your brain starts to forget because it's often on...and seeing that light "on" won't necessarily cause you to immediately do anything; but, when your EFIS/Engine Monitor is yelling at you in the headset and on the screen that your fuel pressure dropped (whether your annunciator light might be on or off), you'll probably take notice of the audio warning and the flashing warning on the EFIS long before you notice the light that was on or off since takeoff. As a reminder to shut it off that might be beneficial, but then again leaving them on really doesn't cause any problems anyway.
Believe me, I'm an old fashioned lover of round instruments and rows of annunciator lights (and from our heavy iron days the MasterCaution/MasterWarning buttons/lights) but I've had to learn and realize the whole point of this modern gadgetry is to alert us about things we aren't looking at (nor even have displayed on the screen) long before we normally would notice them...even IF they were on our screens or on an instrument in the panel... The human brain is an interesting animal for sure!
Like I said, they are somewhat of a personal preference and we do still install them for a number of things as requested by customers. I do agree with Vern that the various controllers which exist do a good job and there are cases where these make perfect sense; I've just know the core engine monitor type lights don't provide the value one thinks they might.
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein
Jesse
Well Known Member
On the different EFIS screens I fly behind the engine warnings are hard to miss. Some pop up on the screen and some have a flashing yellow or red box, as others mentioned, at the bottom right corner of the screen. Even without audio warnings, I always see the warnings right away, especially because they often flash. An external warning light, as Stein said, can get to the point of being unnoticed. Of course, audio warnings are the best of all worlds.
GalinHdz
Well Known Member
I agree audio should be connected if at all possible. But If you don't have an intercom in your airplane then it is a bit harder to get audio alarms on your headset.
Do you absolutely need it? No. But in my opinion it is a very good to have. The regular SV indication is in the bottom right part of the screen and, unless you have the audio also connected, easily overlooked.
I placed external annunciators above the SV display in my regular line of sight/scan area. Amazing how quickly it brings your attention to the alarm.
My 2 cents.
In my case the annunciators are driven by the SV system, not independent annunciators. They just echo what is on the lower right side of the display but more directly in my normal field of view.
which is why many (most) of the modern EFIS's give you a pin to drive an external warning light - because sometimes, the screens get so busy that spotting an on-screen annunciation can be difficult. I am with you on the importance of an aural cue - that gets our attention. The lights I like (but they aren't mandatory) because I am not always staring at the screens - looking outside is important. And annunciator lights can be mounted right on the glareshield where you might see them while looking outside.
No absolutes here - not even in human factors design labs.
KRviator
Well Known Member
FWIW, I designed a half-dozen external annunciators to have high on my panel, but am not going to install them now I've seen the true capabilities of my SkyView/VPX system. It is hooked into the audio so I get voice warnings as needed. That being said, I'll probably have one really bright red LED in my line of sight.
N941WR
Legacy Member
Make sure you can turn it off, it you add it.
There is nothing worse than a high stress night landing with a "really bright LED in my line of sight."
The SV and I assume the others allow you to acknowledge the alarm and kill the light and silence the alarm.
LAMPSguy
Well Known Member
I respectfully disagree. If you always get an audio for all warnings, unless you have different sounds for different warnings, you will get the same "ohhh ****" for everything(like the boy who cried wolf). In fact, I see it all the time with the more experienced pilots in the simulator, many will hit the master warning immediately just to silence the sounds, with less interest on the emergency.
But some things you need to know about, but not IMMEDIATELY. Every military aircraft I have flown has a master warning, you clear it (no sound) then look (WHEN YOU HAVE TIME...aviate, navigate, communicate) to see how important it is. Really important things have specific sounds (engines, Nr, control failures, etc) that you can be trained to immediately react to.
I personally like the division of responsibility that comes from a master warning, clear it, make sure the aircraft still flies, or get it into a safe regime of flight, THEN check for the emergency on the status page or equivalent in your aircraft. WAY too many people "die" in the sim from trying to determine the precise nature of the problem before they maintain control of the aircraft then look up to find themselves in extremis.
Just my 2 cents.
GalinHdz
Well Known Member
Yes, with the SV the external annunciator mimics what is on the display. It blinks when the display annunciator blinks, goes steady when the display goes steady and turns off when the display annunciator turns off. Just a remote version of what is on the lower right part of the display.
On my panel, just below the glare, shield I connected this light from Aircraft Spruce and replaced the provided bulb with this LED (red) from Superbright LED. It is quite bright but I fixed that with a small piece of semi-opaque white tape inside the internal plastic cover. The combinations works much better than I had hoped for.
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Bill_H
Well Known Member
In the process control realm there is the concept of distinct and specified alarm priority. Obviously different alarms have different importance. I won't go into all the details, but it is poor practice to use the exact same sound for all alarms. So a different sound is associated with each level of priority, usually constrained to 3 levels.
The purpose of an alarm is to indicate to the operator (pilot) an abnormal situation requiring operator (pilot) action in order to aviod a consequence.
The alarm is an intentional interruption to the pilot (a "push notification" as opposed to a pull notification) and that initial notification methodology ("annunciation") should include an aspect reflecting the prioirity. ACKnowledgement turns off the sound for the particular alarm.
As examples of situations in 3 increasing priorities: Time to swap tanks, low fuel quantity, low oil pressure. Priority is generally based on a combination of the SEVERITY of the consequence that will occur if the alarm gets no response, in combination with the TIME AVAILABLE for the operator to take the proper corrective action.
When voice is incorporated properly (short terse statements, backed up by visual indicators) that can take the place of the beep-buzz-boop or whatever. (Like a .wav file of the Enterprise's Red Alert.) In a non-EFIS system that uses an annunciator (nothing wrong with that) often the different lights have different colors reflecting some sort of (perhaps informal) prioritization. Different sounds should be a part of that as well, but often are not. A MASTER CAUTION that only has one light and one sound was an early and flawed implementation of this idea, we have learned much more since its development. But INERTIA is the most powerful force in HMI, be it aviation or process control. We tend to keep what we are used to well past its actual usefulness.
The worst alarm design of all time? The CHECK ENGINE light in our cars.
Bill H. N412BR RV12 "Sweetie" with Dynon Skyview
The purpose of an alarm is to indicate to the operator (pilot) an abnormal situation requiring operator (pilot) action in order to aviod a consequence.
The alarm is an intentional interruption to the pilot (a "push notification" as opposed to a pull notification) and that initial notification methodology ("annunciation") should include an aspect reflecting the prioirity. ACKnowledgement turns off the sound for the particular alarm.
As examples of situations in 3 increasing priorities: Time to swap tanks, low fuel quantity, low oil pressure. Priority is generally based on a combination of the SEVERITY of the consequence that will occur if the alarm gets no response, in combination with the TIME AVAILABLE for the operator to take the proper corrective action.
When voice is incorporated properly (short terse statements, backed up by visual indicators) that can take the place of the beep-buzz-boop or whatever. (Like a .wav file of the Enterprise's Red Alert.) In a non-EFIS system that uses an annunciator (nothing wrong with that) often the different lights have different colors reflecting some sort of (perhaps informal) prioritization. Different sounds should be a part of that as well, but often are not. A MASTER CAUTION that only has one light and one sound was an early and flawed implementation of this idea, we have learned much more since its development. But INERTIA is the most powerful force in HMI, be it aviation or process control. We tend to keep what we are used to well past its actual usefulness.
The worst alarm design of all time? The CHECK ENGINE light in our cars.
Bill H. N412BR RV12 "Sweetie" with Dynon Skyview
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