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LED Replacements for MR-16's?

Kyle Boatright

Well Known Member
I must not be looking in the right place(s), because I cannot find a LED replacement for the MR16 halogen lights Van's sells.

Does anyone know of a suitable product?
 
Noise

Be careful. We tried a bunch of these before we found some that wouldn't put out so much noise that the radio kept breaking squelch. Torchstar.US has some that seem to work. They are 7Watt.
I think the number is X000KGEFGF
Vic
 
Very noisy

Be careful. We tried a bunch of these before we found some that wouldn't put out so much noise that the radio kept breaking squelch. Torchstar.US has some that seem to work. They are 7Watt.
I think the number is X000KGEFGF
Vic

Thats what I ran into, ended up replacing the controller with a fixed resistor and they have worked fine for 2 years now. I would not consider them landing lights, but great for recognition lights. I think mine are 580 lumens or so.
 
More info please Vic

Be careful. We tried a bunch of these before we found some that wouldn't put out so much noise that the radio kept breaking squelch. Torchstar.US has some that seem to work. They are 7Watt.
I think the number is X000KGEFGF
Vic

I've battled and lost the RF issue with LED's, back with lower watt halogen for wig wag, but don't like it as much. Vic did you really have success without any RF noise with LED MR16? That P/N is isn't found on the Torchstar site. Any more info please.
 
I have looked……I have HID's which I can't replace it seems. The HID's are excellent, but the supply has vanished.

I reckon this might be the answer. Not cheap but….. ;)

wing-inset-homebox.jpg


http://aeroleds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/wing-inset-homebox.jpg
 
I have looked……I have HID's which I can't replace it seems. The HID's are excellent, but the supply has vanished.

Same here. Recently downgraded left wingtip from HID to halogen because of HID bulb failure. Not happy. :(
 
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We have a few at Aerosport Products!

I know that we have some nice Toshiba MR-16 LED bulbs in stock. I cant remember all of the specs off hand but I do believe they are 36 degree beam angle. I will post the specs tomorrow morning when I have them in hand. I know that we have at least 6 bulbs and 8 leads.

Feel free to contact me via email.

[email protected]
 
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Are these still ref noisy

Vic, Carl, and Zac, are the LED lights you're suggesting quiet in your radio? Are you flashing them too?
 
Yes.

They are dead silent and I do flash them, along with the LED landing lights, using an ALFI flasher from Aircraft spruce. Steve Jarrell actually found these and had me install them in his RV-7A (which I built), and we tested a number of them using a handheld radio and these really do work.

Vic
 
For those who are looking for true "landing lights" that fit the MR-16 format, check out these. Not cheap, but at 2500 lumens they produce sufficient light to actually be useful as a landing light.

http://www.trailtech.net/d112-sx

I've purchased a pair of these lights:
http://www.proplast-online.de/en/Pr...tml?listtype=search&searchparam=pro mini rock
At 1000 lumens each, the pair of them seems to produce about the same light and beam coverage as the low beam headlights in my car. They're not exactly the same form factor as an MR-16, and in fact are a bit smaller than an MR-16. Being oval in shape, they produce a beam which is likewise oval. These are used as taxi / supplemental landing lights, mounted in the lower engine cowl. They're supplementing the Baja Squadron Pro lights mounted in each wingtip. The Baja Squadron lights are very bright, likely too bright to be comfortably used on the ground while in proximity to other aircraft, hence the desire to have taxi lights in the cowl.
 
Check for RF noise

BE sure to check for RF noise. We had a hard time finding some LED's that wouldn't break the radio squelch.

Vic
 
I see that there are a lot of creative ideas in here and other threads but I never see anyone mention heat. I have 50W halogens in my wingtips and to be honest, I think they are too hot. I'd rather find a cooler solution before trying to solve the brightness problem. How are you guys making out with all of these options??
 
LED's

The LED's are not hot. The spec's usually say something like 50W equivalent, but it has nothing to do with the heat, only the light output. Where a 50W MR16 incandescent will draw 4-5 amps and produce the 50W of heat, the equivalent LED might draw less than .5 amp and produce very, very little heat.
When looking for LED lights, the LUMENS output is important.

Vic
 
The MR16 LED bulbs that we have are Toshiba 6MR16/840SP8. These are 6.2W, 8 Degree beam angle (Spot), 4000K Cool White, dimmable, 280 lumens. We sold these to use in our RV-10 Landing Light kit but have since moved to a Baja Designs bulb for that application. To the best of our knowledge, these offer no interference with RF. We have 6 of them in stock with the connector leads.
 
This doesn't appear to be related to the MR-16 form factor. The MR-16 is a bulb; the link goes to an enclosed unit. Is that the correct link?

This is indeed the correct link - this is an LED light which fits the same 70mm hole as one would find with an MR-16. It's a bit of a rarity to find something that fits this hole size. Yes, some folks who have used MR-16's will not be able to take advantage of the form factor of this light from Trailtech, while others may be able to.

These lights, as well as the Proplast lights, have proven to be very quiet on the RF spectrum.

As has been pointed out, it's lumens that count. The units Zac has highlighted produce 280 lumens, while the two lights I've highlighted produce 1000 and 2500 lumens, thus are in something of a different category. That's a big driver behind their form-factor as heat sinking is of vital importance to LEDs.

At 1000 lumens the Proplast lights I have are OK but I wouldn't be comfortable using only one of them as a sole landing light when landing on a rural, deer-infested runway. A pair of them gives pretty good light, but again not a focused enough beam to cast enough light far enough down the runway to be a confidence-builder for wildlife avoidance on a dark and stormy night. The 2500 lumen fixtures from Trailtech produce sufficient light in a tight enough beam to be a big boost in pilot confidence when avoiding wildlife is a concern. The pair of 4300 lumen Baja Squadron Pro lights installed in our wingips are more than sufficient to provide excellent wildlife avoidance capability.
 
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Wow just getting back to this area myself after a long time working on other things.

I bought these for my taxi lights as they were referenced in previous threads here.

http://www.dx.com/p/52-8mm-41-5mm-aluminum-reflector-with-copper-base-for-ssc-p7-led-emitters-13803#.Vp6hFjOFPaM

I still need to finalize my mounting scheme. I started with an arrangement similar to the Vans MR-16 holders, but these have the built-in heat sink so a modified approach is needed.

I also decided I did want an LED driver so I designed a single PCB to drive both the Nav and Taxi lights with wigwag support. I'm just getting it running now. I added on-board power filters to prevent EMI problems. We'll see how well they work soon. I'll post some pics when I get a little further.
 
This is indeed the correct link - this is an LED light which fits the same 70mm hole as one would find with an MR-16. It's a bit of a rarity to find something that fits this hole size. Yes, some folks who have used MR-16's will not be able to take advantage of the form factor of this light from Trailtech, while others may be able to.

Ok, that makes sense. The only thing it has in common with an MR-16 is the 70mm diameter. It's in no way a direct replacement.
 
sizes

Ok, that makes sense. The only thing it has in common with an MR-16 is the 70mm diameter. It's in no way a direct replacement.

Not even that, the "16" in MR-16 is it's diameter in 1/8's of an inch.

Makes it about 51 mm diameter... :)
 
Not even that, the "16" in MR-16 is it's diameter in 1/8's of an inch.

Makes it about 51 mm diameter... :)

Gil - you're right on the money with your comment - I stand corrected. After looking again, I realize the 70mm diameter is actually the diameter of the mounting tube used in our (non-RV) lower engine cowl mount.

The Proplast lights are 60mm wide and about 50mm tall, so not a bad fit as an MR16 replacement. Again, getting a lot of power into a small package is really a challenge - these are the brightest lights I've found in this form factor.
 
Khhhhhhhhhh, Khhhhhhhhh, Khhhhhhhhhh Noise

Put in the torchstar and they are very noisy. I think I need another solution.
http://www.torchstar.us/ac-dc-12v-7w-mr16-led-bulb.html


Before starting I hooked one of the new torchstars up to a battery right next to my com antenna, absolutely nothing flashing or steady on. The new torschstars break squelch on steady or wig-waging when installed in the plane.

How do you guys have your wiring set up? Mine is per Aeroelectric's flasher diagram with local grounds. Is that the problem and I need to ground to master ground.

I really want this to work. I've tried magnet coils, capacitors, and 2 or 3 different LED"s. Hope someone smarter than me on this subject has suggestions. The lights are hanging from the mounts looking sad right now.
 
Are you saying that when independently powered, they cause no noise in your radios, but when you install them, they do?

If so, the noise is either on the power line or ground path (or likely, both).

Have you tried running temporary power & ground wires directly from the battery to the lamps, with the lamps electrically isolated from the airframe? That would help in determining if you have a ground loop issue. I've had similar noise issues with a locally grounded strobe; improved a lot when I ran a ground back to the firewall ground point. (And this particular plane never saw any of Nuckoll's writings when it was built, so it has multiple 'issues'.)

Charlie

edit: The specs page says these bulbs have a 36 degree angle. Do they really have enough 'throw' to work well as landing lights? Great deal if they do.
 
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So I have my taxi light LEDs powered up now. I've just been shining them around in the house so far but others have given them the thumbs up. I did fabricate a bracket to mount them similar to the original Vans 3 hole brackets.
 
Yes Charlie, Completely separate battery and new light, no noise. Going to run new separate power supply from the buss to the light with a local ground today.
 
I did months of home testing to run LEDs with out the PWM board, using the 13,000 trust fire....I know, just a flash light, but an LED is an LED is a LED, so, the 12 LEDs arranged in parallel and series, I need to step down from 14.2 V to 12 @ 3 amp to keep them alive thermally, ended up with a 1 OHM and a 2 OHM in parallel 25 watt resistors mounted on a heat sink bed and there ya go. BAM! these throw some serious light if you turn them up! with the battery in the flashlight they are running 11 V and around one amp.......at 12 and 3 amp they are about 5 X brighter! a lot simpler and about 700.00 more, you can just drop in the BAJA design, I run these on my Ducati.
 
Yes Charlie, Completely separate battery and new light, no noise. Going to run new separate power supply from the buss to the light with a local ground today.

To be sure we're using the same terms...

It's not likely that your current B+ line, going from the battery to the buss, then to the switch, then to the light, is causing the problem. Possible, but not likely.

The term 'local ground' is typically used to mean that there's a short jumper from the ground terminal of the device (light, in this case) to the airframe near where the device is mounted. 'Noisy' devices like DC motors and switching power supplies (which are inside most modern LED lamp assemblies) that send their ground return paths through the airframe and share the airframe return path with stuff like intercoms, radios, etc, can inject their noise into the 'victims'.

So if I were troubleshooting, the 1st thing I'd do is run a temporary separate ground wire from the light to the battery negative (or at least, to the firewall 'forest of tabs' ground point.

BTW, you did make sure that your audio & RF related stuff has all grounds going direct to the forest of tabs, right?
 
I did months of home testing to run LEDs with out the PWM board, using the 13,000 trust fire....I know, just a flash light, but an LED is an LED is a LED, so, the 12 LEDs arranged in parallel and series, I need to step down from 14.2 V to 12 @ 3 amp to keep them alive thermally, ended up with a 1 OHM and a 2 OHM in parallel 25 watt resistors mounted on a heat sink bed and there ya go. BAM! these throw some serious light if you turn them up! with the battery in the flashlight they are running 11 V and around one amp.......at 12 and 3 amp they are about 5 X brighter! a lot simpler and about 700.00 more, you can just drop in the BAJA design, I run these on my Ducati.

Are they surviving at that current? How long are you running them continuously? Are the LED components in the Trustfire rated for 3 amps continuous?

I like the idea of using the Trustfires, but would like to know that they will survive extended use, like daytime operation as recognition lights.

Thanks,

Charlie
 
Hello again Charlie and group, thank you for your wise advice.

When I built the plane and wiring, I have every device with a ground wire back to the forrest of tabs (grounds). This forrest of internal grounds it short/large wire connected to the bolted thru the firewall junction for the starter and engine block ground. Only the battery ground goes to the airframe, in the rear of the plane.

I'm pretty sure the wigwag LED's were originally grounded with a dedicated ground wire back to the forrest. While trying to fix the problem, i disconnected this groundwork and put in a local to the airframe ground.

Back to the hanger today and will experiment with ground wires.
 
Radiated emissions "noise" is a function of current flow. That current flows from your power source through the led driver circuits and back through your ground return path to the battery. Shared currents by sharing return paths can also cause direct coupling of noise. So even a separated ground return may not fix the problem if the problem is emission from the positive supply wiring that is emitting "noise" onto the receiver in some form.
 
No joy

Reconnected LEDs back to the forrest of ground tabs, same noise whether steady-state or wig wag, ****. No difference with ground local at the lights or back to main common ground.

The power supply to the LEDS is on its own circuit and fuse. This wire connects to the flasher which tees to the left and right tip.

I'm wishing I'd run shielded write for the whole circuit. I got lazy and impatient and twisted the power and ground from the flash error to the tip. Do to think I need shielded for the entire circuit?

Experiment update. Connected new LEDs to the landing light sockets no noise. I'm beginning to suspect my twisted pair is causing the problem. Ironic, since I did it to avoid this problem.
 
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Shielding the wires should solve your problem. I installed and wired per AeroLED recommendations, which were against normal shielded wire guidelines, which is to only ground one end of the shielding. The AeroLEDs instructions have you ground both ends of the shielding and the lights locally as well.

The only time the above was changed that I am aware was in another post where the airplane was vinyl wrapped. This required the local ground to be removed, if I recall.
 
Are they surviving at that current? How long are you running them continuously? Are the LED components in the Trustfire rated for 3 amps continuous?

I like the idea of using the Trustfires, but would like to know that they will survive extended use, like daytime operation as recognition lights.

Thanks,

Charlie
the temps rose and then held steady, the Trust fire has an OK heat sing built into the head, I did all this just for fun and to spend money on lots of LEDs, resistors and other things, just to see if it COULD be done with out the PWM circuit, and it can, no noise! just heat that must be controlled, but that's what heat sinks are for and a little wasted power but that's ok, I have an alternator.
 
One thing about aluminum flashlight heads is they use the flashlight body as part of the heatsink.So without without the body it will run warmer. LED lifetimes can be over 50000 hours but they are dependent on operating temperature. The warmer they are the shorter the life.

I'm testing my dropin head now. I've added a mounting plate as part of the heatsink. More testing to come. In general I think it's ok to let these devices run warm as long as they dont get too hot. If you can't touch the heatsink it's probably too hot. Otherwise it's probably ok for the lifetimes that we need in this application.
 
Suggest starting over with troubleshooting, changing one thing at at time and recording conditions for each step.

1st, where is the noise? Radio receive? intercom with radio off? Only through intercom with radio on? Noise in nav radio only? Noise in comm radio only? Is the noise transmitted on top of your voice to another radio in another plane?

Verify that there's no noise when the light is powered from a separate battery. If there's no noise with separate supply (in any mode listed above), then shielding isn't likely to help, because the noise isn't being radiated into the other devices. (If it were, then the substitute battery/wiring would radiate into the a/c systems, just like the installed wiring.)

If all's good with independent power/wiring, grab a 15'-20' piece of 'zip' cord (lamp cord) or other pair of wires & go directly from the battery terminals to the light, making sure the light isn't grounded to the airframe. Noise now? If yes, then the noise isn't radiating but is being conducted on the power wires. If no noise, then you likely have ground loop issues in the airframe. Try leaving the ground side temporarily in place, and hook up your supply side wiring that's installed in the plane. (This leaves the ground for the light connected directly to the battery without a 'local' ground.) If still good, then you *definitely* have a ground loop issue.

You mentioned a rear mounted battery (which I forgot was a possibility). I think you also mentioned grounding the battery locally (near the battery) to the airframe. If that's the case, you have the potential for many and big ground loops because some of your locally grounded devices may well follow a ground path past other locally grounded devices before making it back to the battery negative terminal (the 'ultimate' ground point). Not saying it should never be done; many certified planes do it that way, and many homebuilts, too, and many get away with it. But some don't. With the forest of tabs bonded to the a/c at the firewall, and the battery bonded to the a/c in the rear fuselage, the forest of tabs becomes a 'local ground' for all the stuff that's grounded there.

If the dedicated ground wire keeps the noise away, the next test you can try is to temporarily lift the battery's ground to the airframe, & run a light gauge ground wire from the battery negative directly to the firewall forest of tabs. (To state the obvious, don't try to run high current loads while in this state, especially engine start. :-O ) Then reconnect the installed supply & ground wires from your switch and the forest of tabs to the light (keeping the light isolated from a local ground). Still quiet? Buy some fat welding cable for your new ground wire. Noisy again? I give up....

Shielding, and connections for shielding, can be confusing. Grounding only one end only works if there's a separate ground path *in addition to the shield*. The whole 'ground one end' thing probably arose from magneto P-leads. Even magneto P-leads run current on the shields, at least until the motor stops, because the shield is the ground path for the magneto primary coil when you turn the mag 'off'. Be aware that when you install many intercom/audio systems, the shield is the return (ground) path for the audio signal. When you isolate the jacks from the airframe, you aren't 'grounding the shield at one end', because the shield *is* the ground. Isolating the jacks from the airframe prevents having *2* return paths for the audio, where the airframe path might have other, noisy returns from other devices.

Charlie

Edit: Just reviewed some of the previous posts, & realized that you mentioned 'wigwag'. That's another variable. If you have a wigwag controller in the circuit, when you ran your independent battery test was the wigwag controller in the circuit? (hint, hint...)
 
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Torchstar MR16 LED

I ordered two Torchstar MR16 bulbs for the wingtips of my 7A to replace the haolgens (75 watt) out there already. They are very bright and after install, they produced no radio interference and very low current draw. Thought I had a perfect solution. I then discovered that they overheat within a couple of minutes, shut off for a couple of minutes and then start the cycle all over again. How can a 7 watt bulb overheat so quickly? I leave the wingtip lights on all the time as a collision avoidance light so I guess I go back to the high current draw halogens. I am disappointed they didn't work.
 
Shielding the wires should solve your problem. I installed and wired per AeroLED recommendations, which were against normal shielded wire guidelines, which is to only ground one end of the shielding. The AeroLEDs instructions have you ground both ends of the shielding and the lights locally as well.
.

This is a mis-understanding that seems to be often perpetuated. Aeroled has it correct. In simple, Non-EE terms, grounding both ends of the shield helps to keep noise in and grounding one end helps to avoid "absorbing" noise from the outside. noisy circuits, like LED lights, should ground both ends of shield to mitigate noise radiation and sensitive circuits like an intercom audio wire should ground only one side to minimize external noise.

Larry
 
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