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airport refusing to rent me a hangar to build

I'm willing to spend more than I have ��

I've pissed away enough money on planes I don't want to end up with 30k in a paperweight if I can't finish it
If it is worth it or not for you, is a decision only you can make. Good luck.

:cool:
 
Hi Philip,

I`ve sent you two private messages with a contact I know in Oahu... Hope it helps...


Cheers Yves
 
apparently there are available hangars. I thought there was a list but they just evicted a bunch of people. they can evict you for any reason they want (and often do)

A federally-assisted airport cannot evict persons for any reason they want. For one thing "any reason" often becomes "no reason". The airport managment simple doesn't like you. I just brought this up with the Memphis FSDO. My nearby airport had a statement in it's lease that said "we reserve the right to terminate this lease for any reason". The FSDO made them delete that and the FSDO guys told me they approved this with the headquarters.

Essentially, a federally assisted airport must have good cause to evict you and leaving a bicycle in your hangar is not good cause. Nor can a sponsor compel you to agree that you may be evicted for any reason in order to obtain a lease. In my experience EAA and AOPA are worthless in these fights. Make a complaint to your FSDO and label it under 14 CFR Part 13. Know the current FAA policy on hangars and document your objections.
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...n-the-non-aeronautical-use-of-airport-hangars

I've complained a lot and a FSDO complaint is the only thing that has worked for me.
 
A federally-assisted airport cannot evict persons for any reason they want. For one thing "any reason" often becomes "no reason". The airport managment simple doesn't like you. I just brought this up with the Memphis FSDO. My nearby airport had a statement in it's lease that said "we reserve the right to terminate this lease for any reason". The FSDO made them delete that and the FSDO guys told me they approved this with the headquarters.

Essentially, a federally assisted airport must have good cause to evict you and leaving a bicycle in your hangar is not good cause. Nor can a sponsor compel you to agree that you may be evicted for any reason in order to obtain a lease. In my experience EAA and AOPA are worthless in these fights. Make a complaint to your FSDO and label it under 14 CFR Part 13. Know the current FAA policy on hangars and document your objections.
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...n-the-non-aeronautical-use-of-airport-hangars

I've complained a lot and a FSDO complaint is the only thing that has worked for me.

Laughs in hawaiian
 
my local airport doesnt allow building in the hangars, which I dont really plan to do but there comes a time when everything goes together and you need a hangar. I personally think its ****, you're paying normally a hefty fee you should be able to do what ever you like with it. The whole fuel thing I dont agree with because if the fuel is cheaper someplace else im going there to get fuel anyway. I'm all for supporting your local businesses but that goes out the window when you force it.
 
Here's the latest lunacy



You would need to apply for a hangar the usual way, providing all required documentation. If your aircraft is under repair, in shipment, or under construction at that time, then you will need to request from the Director/Airport Manager to grant a conditional waiver to allow the processing of the permit with the requirement that you must have the aircraft certified and airworthy within six months.



Who builds a plane in 6 months lol

Applying for a hangar is great, you only have to provide 2 million in liability coverage, and get a letter from. The state and county saying you don't owe any money and send about 4k for 3 months rent and deposit, oh and it takes 3 months. But progress is being made
 
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Make sure that AT EVERY STEP, you are taking good contemporaneous notes and getting things in writing if at all possible. Emails work, too, if you need to get someone to commit to a position.

"Verbal agreements" aren't worth spit, and people "misremember" things all the time. WRITE IT DOWN.
 
Here's the latest lunacy



You would need to apply for a hangar the usual way, providing all required documentation. If your aircraft is under repair, in shipment, or under construction at that time, then you will need to request from the Director/Airport Manager to grant a conditional waiver to allow the processing of the permit with the requirement that you must have the aircraft certified and airworthy within six months.



Who builds a plane in 6 months lol

Applying for a hangar is great, you only have to provide 2 million in liability coverage, and get a letter from. The state and county saying you don't owe any money and send about 4k for 3 months rent and deposit, oh and it takes 3 months. But progress is being made
Lots of talk here of fighting this, but I can guarantee you it is a loosing battle and will cost you a lot of money and aggravation to go along with it. We built two Cozy MKIV's in my basement in a small 16' X 24' area and removed them from the basement by cutting a large hole in the first floor and hoisting them out. The folks I purchased my RV-10 empennage kit from last year had a shop set up in their small family roof to build! The point is, don't give up on your dream to build your own plane. Get creative, it can be done!
 
I agree it's a hopeless battle to fight city hall kind of situation. If funds permit buy a cessna 150/152 that is flying then you'd be meeting their requirements. You could have it to fly and build in your hanger until you reach a point and have to move the cessna to the ramp. Another option is to rent/lease some space from a local business or even an individual someplace close. Put an add out and see what bites. Edited: Just had another thought. Would it be possible to go to one of the local you store it places? Some have power and lights and are climate controlled. I use to rent one, (for storage), and noticed there were a few that were being used as a base for businesses. Guys coming and going all day with business stuff. Not office space but you get the idea.
 
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Before I got my hangar I found someone that was trying to rent a garage on their property. It was separate from their home and it would have been a perfect workshop. My hangar ended up being closer so I went that direction. There are options out there as others have suggested. Search for workshops in Craigslist. In my area there are also artist workshops some want quiet tenants some are more for sculpture or expect the use of power tools. I explored these too.

At my airport the agreement is fairly loose in that there needs to be measurable progress on the plane. I'm making progress so I'm not worried about it. If I was in your situation I don't think I would take the approach that the airport is wrong and I need to fight them to get a spot. In the long run in my opinion that is just going to be a lot of frustration. You may technically be right but your frustration won't end if you manage to get a hangar. Just my 2 cents as people say.
 
Not a perfect solution but you might check into RV, as in recreational vehicle, storage units. I’m in metro ATL and pay $325ish for a 15X50 enclosed unit for my coach. Obviously final assembly not happening but you could get mighty close...

Hutch
 
Not a perfect solution but you might check into RV, as in recreational vehicle, storage units. I’m in metro ATL and pay $325ish for a 15X50 enclosed unit for my coach. Obviously final assembly not happening but you could get mighty close...

Hutch

No rvs in hawaii. There are storage places that have garage sized units but they're as much as a hangar,
Bout 900/mo
 
FAA on hanger use:

Question 8. What aeronautical uses of a hangar are permissible?
FAA Response.
Storage of active aircraft.
Shelter for maintenance, repair, or refurbishment of aircraft, but not the indefinite storage of non-operational aircraft.
Construction of amateur-built or kit-built aircraft provided that activities are conducted safely;
Storage of aircraft handling equipment, e.g., tow bar, glider tow equipment, workbenches, and tools and materials used to service, maintain, repair or outfit aircraft; items related to ancillary or incidental uses that do not affect the hangars' primary use.
Storage of materials related to an aeronautical activity, e.g., balloon and skydiving equipment, office equipment, teaching tools, and materials related to ancillary or incidental uses that do not affect the hangars' primary use; V' Storage of non-aeronautical items that do not interfere with the primary aeronautical purpose of the hangar (for example, televisions, furniture).
A vehicle parked at the hangar while the aircraft usually stored in that hangar is flying, subject to local airport rules and regulations.
 
philip_g is right. As someone who has been there and done that in Hawaii, I'd say not to bother with anything having to do with Hawaii airports. Find somewhere else to build and when you're almost ready to fly, pack the project into a container and move you and it to the mainland. If you insist on staying in Hawaii the HDOT will make the flying experience so miserable you'll wish you had not bothered to build it.

HDOT is filled with the most lazy, unhelpful people you'll ever meet. I had a hangar while building and never put my project in it. Had a Citabria to fly while building. Even with that, we were constantly hassled about things in the hangar and at nearly every airport we flew to we were hassled as well. GA as you know it doesn't exist in Hawaii for that reason. An RV will run out of places to fly quickly there as the number of airports is limited and there is airline service at most of them making the security folks empowered to make your life miserable.

Have fun! Build it and move out!

Cheers!

Russ
HRII
Built mostly on Maui
 
I read the OP and then the second reply about a lawyer. Forget it. It is the airport perogative not to rent to you for any reason. It is common Airports won't rent to people who are doing an airplane kit or restoration.

It's really a common policy and it doesn't surprise me. I am sure it's in their insurance policy.I recall at least 3 or 4 cases of hanger fires caused by people working on projects (sometimes boats, cars). People do all kind of **** in hangers. Ex. Fiberglass plane builder mixes up a batch of epoxy, does layup, leaves, the epoxy mix overheats and catches nearby items on fire, spreads, another hanger and several planes destroyed or damaged in adjacent hangers. (Happened at my airport. Killed a newly finished RV6 and damaged a fresh restored cub in adjacent hangers.)

Other Reasons:
Hangar availability, they want to rent to people that are flying aircraft. That means buying Fuel and other things as well, like patronizing local mechanics.

Airports get Federal funding (Our tax money) by number of operations a yr. A hanger with the project doesn't provide more takeoff and landings or buy more AV gas.
 
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First, If they can kick you out because you don't spend enough money at the airport, then you don't want to be there.

Second thought very different from the first......Do you have the financial resources to buy an inexpensive trailerable aircraft like this glider?

https://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/gliders/schleicher-ka-6cr.html

These K-6 have been this price on the used market for 15 years, so you could buy it and store it in order to give you the right to have the hangar lease.

But, Do you have to own an aircraft to possess the hangar, or could you buy a glider, put it in the hangar just to get the lease, then sell the glider and move your project into the hangar? Or could you lease an aircraft and put in the hangar?
 
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I think the question is...if the airport gets Federal funding, is it legal for them to exercise that level of control over hangar activities?
 
WE have several clients with Hawaii addresses, and their planes ar on the mainland. Suzanne and I SERIOUSLY looked at relocating there, but found out that the airports werent GA friendly, much less to a guy that was working in the experimental industry.
Sure would have been great to work in shorts, a hula shirt!

Tom
 
WE have several clients with Hawaii addresses, and their planes ar on the mainland. Suzanne and I SERIOUSLY looked at relocating there, but found out that the airports werent GA friendly, much less to a guy that was working in the experimental industry.
Sure would have been great to work in shorts, a hula shirt!

Tom

I'm in a quasi-industrial space, with a heated hangar. I often work in shorts, even in January in Colorado, for comfort. But today, Tom, just for you, I will wear a hawaiian shirt, too, while I install your fuel and oil lines.
 
I read the OP and then the second reply about a lawyer. Forget it. It is the airport perogative not to rent to you for any reason. It is common Airports won't rent to people who are doing an airplane kit or restoration.

This information is totally incorrect if the airport has taken federal funding in the past 20 years. The Assurances demand equal access to airport facilities and the FAA has a policy demanding "repairs, modifications, refurbishment" of aircraft and "final assembly" of experimental aircraft. Look it up.
https://www.faa.gov/airports/aip/grant_assurances/
https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_compliance/hangar_use/

Assurances and Policies are hard to enforce but if pilots won't complain to the FSDO, well, they get the government they deserve.
 
This information is totally incorrect if the airport has taken federal funding in the past 20 years.

It is policy Kent, but for most it's an exercise in tilting at windmills.

Play it out. Let's assume the FAA airports office goes to the airport sponsor with a notice saying they must rent to a builder. The sponsor ignores them. The only leverage is denial of future airport project funding. Problem is, an airport with airline service and a Congressman is not going to get denied when they want to fund a safety improvement. At the other end of the scale, a small municipal sponsor may prefer to stop taking funding for a while, and it's already hard for many of us to keep our local airport funded and maintained.

Meanwhile the poor schmoo demanding his rights is just getting older and paying legal bills.

Build at home. It all goes twice as fast. If home is unsuitable, the hard truth is the builder did not prepare for a future involving airplane fabrication.
 
IMeanwhile the poor schmoo demanding his rights is just getting older and paying legal bills.

I'd hazard a guess that the money you'd spend on lawyers getting to the point of having a hangar that you can build in, would be better spent on buying a flying RV... Even including crating and shipping costs to HI.
 
Phillp, just for giggles, what airport on Oahu? HNL, Kalaeloa, or Dillingham?

Tom

HNL, I work on hickam so that's the most convenient. traffic to jrf..... ugh.
but it's real easy to bop over to the hangars after work to get a couple hours in. Dillingham would be the easy bet but that's like 1.5 hours each way from windward side.
 
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Build at home. It all goes twice as fast. If home is unsuitable, the hard truth is the builder did not prepare for a future involving airplane fabrication.

it's just not that easy here. the real estate market isn't such that you can just move on until you find a place with room to build. I looked yesterday and think I maybe saw 10 houses on the east side of the island under 1.2m

I think I'll just keep an eye out for a decent mustang ii or something and ship it out here. That's the cheapest inroad, or partner on a multi. I don't relish running singles over water. especially fixed gear canopy singles. It's a bit of a disappointment since I've wanted to build since starting reading kitplanes in the late 90's but life happened as it has to many here.
 
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I think the question is...if the airport gets Federal funding, is it legal for them to exercise that level of control over hangar activities?

Ans: Forget it. Lawyers cost money.. There is no right to rent hangers. FED funds only requires the City/State keep an airport open to support aircraft operations, not turn it into Condominium's.

*One "work around" is find a hanger with plane and "sub-lease" or share it.* Most hangers are decent sized for a light twin. A SE Cessna will have extra space. They'll be enough room to build the tail, the wings, fuselage. As you complete items trailer completed sections home or to storage unit if/as needed. I have had aircraft Parts in spare bedrooms, the back Recreation room to make room in a single car garage.
 
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There is no right to rent hangers.

I think in a limited sense, there is. If a hangar is being used for non-aeronautical use, and you have an aeronautical use for it, and the airport took federal money within the last 25 years (IIRC), then they have to abide by the grant assurances which gives aeronautical use of hangars priority over non-aeronautical use. That much is certainly true.

Whether it's feasible to force that to happen is a different matter, of course, and as you note, lawyers cost money (should you have to go down that route as a last resort, say).

Still, it's worth putting up a fight for what you are entitled to, I'd say. What's the worst that can happen (assuming you don't pay lawyers)? You don't get a hangar? You aren't getting one now, anyway. Press the issue with the airport, then the managing government agency, then the FSDO, then your Congressional rep, etc. Sometimes the squeaky wheel really does get the grease :).

Anyway, IMO, you don't have anything to lose but your time...
 
Or, "The nail that sticks out get hammered down."

Well, apparently for the OP, no hangar means no airplane, so why not go down swinging?

Best would be to get the FAA to do the swinging for you, if you can, of course. Or your Congressperson.

All depends on how much you want to build and fly, I guess.

ETA: BTW, part of me feels that the reason this problem continues to come up is because far too many people just say "F*** it" and give up. I know that's been the case here with many people I've known or met, and it must be similar elsewhere. So there's a culture of "nuthin' we can do about it". Imagine if, as a group, aircraft owners and builders were known to be aggressive in asserting their rights to airport amenities like hangars in preference to non-aviation users, utilizing all available resources to fight for their rights (EAA, AOPA, FSDO, FAA HQ, Congress, lawyers, etc.). If they fought such improper use often and hard, eventually, it might become a culture that "you don't mess with the pilots...if there's a hangar without a plane, they get it, period".

But too many just roll over and shamble away..."nuthin' I can do, I guess". Sad.
 
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Hanger

Philip,

You work at Hickam so I would assume you have field access. Would it be possible to see if they have any space in an old quanset hut (if any on field) or back of a maintenance hanger? I know it is a long shot.

Or would the Pacific Aviation Museum have any space you could rent while you build? Dosen't give you a hanger but it might be a building space while trying to get a hanger.

UH Manoa 1971
RV 14A flying
 
Well, apparently for the OP, no hangar means no airplane, so why not go down swinging?

Best would be to get the FAA to do the swinging for you, if you can, of course. Or your Congressperson.

All depends on how much you want to build and fly, I guess.

ETA: BTW, part of me feels that the reason this problem continues to come up is because far too many people just say "F*** it" and give up. I know that's been the case here with many people I've known or met, and it must be similar elsewhere. So there's a culture of "nuthin' we can do about it". Imagine if, as a group, aircraft owners and builders were known to be aggressive in asserting their rights to airport amenities like hangars in preference to non-aviation users, utilizing all available resources to fight for their rights (EAA, AOPA, FSDO, FAA HQ, Congress, lawyers, etc.). If they fought such improper use often and hard, eventually, it might become a culture that "you don't mess with the pilots...if there's a hangar without a plane, they get it, period".

But too many just roll over and shamble away..."nuthin' I can do, I guess". Sad.
I agree with you, but sometimes you have to figure out what you want to spend your time and money on. A pretty smart guy once wrote "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" - as I get older I see the truth in this more and more.
 
Still, it's worth putting up a fight for what you are entitled to, I'd say. What's the worst that can happen (assuming you don't pay lawyers)? You don't get a hangar? You aren't getting one now, anyway. Press the issue with the airport, then the managing government agency, then the FSDO, then your Congressional rep, etc. Sometimes the squeaky wheel really does get the grease :).

Anyway, IMO, you don't have anything to lose but your time...
I have been at this rodeo before.... It is a waste of time. Yes press the issue. Go to the airport manger, plea, beg, grovel....

Separation of State and Fed Gov... the airport is not owned or managed by USA Gov but State Gov... If you know the state Governor or city Mayor of city that would help... What I know is hangers are hard to get and rent is expensive.... The airport management will have no problem renting it. Why rent it to him. Renting to airworthy registered aircraft is a very common rule... I standby my position there is no RIGHT to rent you a hanger unless it is against Federal law (discrimination). Try sure... but better clean out the garage and start pounding rivets. Other wise this is an excuse and a waste of time to not build.... I have seen RV's build in car ports, sheds. one car garages and dining room/living rooms.... it can be done... (line floor with cheap carpet or plywood or other protection and wall off area with tarps, put work shoes on going in and off exiting work area.... been done).
 
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I told my airport that I didn't have my plane yet, I'm still shopping. I wanted to get a hanger ahead of time so my plane won't be outside. I was in fact looking for a plane. Got the hangar no problems.
I've established a great relationship with them now. I recently inquired about another hangar for an upcoming RV-8 build attempt (lol). I didn't mention anything about building.. Not sure if that would have mattered as there are numerous RV's based at my airport. One of my hanger neighbors has a partial build and stuff wedged tightly in his hanger.
Try the I'm buying but want a hanger ready line. If and once you get it be very low key and extremely friendly to the staff.
Just my .02
 
Well, I solved the problem. I'm moving back to the mainland. Now I can build a rv8... Probably. Maybe. I will not miss the headaches of dealing with the state of hawaii.

I ended up with a decent certified airplane out here that I'll have to sell but... That's OK. Maybe after 25 years of wanting an experimental I will finely achieve it.
 
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