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  #11  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:34 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc View Post
I'm too lazy to look up the airspace rules or what facility controls the SATR but I will say the 2 way radio communications should be established with the controlling facility. If that is Luke approach then you should establish comm with them. This is the simplest explanation.

Now, if you are talking to neighboring ATC facilities, merely establishing radio comm with THEM means NOTHING. They may not know exactly where you are and will not take responsibility if you bust the SATR. However, if you are told RADAR CONTACT (identified) then that controller will MORE than likely coordinate on your behalf with the controlling facility of the SATR. As others have mentioned, it may be seemless on your end and you would never know. If you are unsure you could simply ask if you are permitted to fly through the SATR.

Generally, flight following will provide you with traffic advisories/alerts as well as advisories about restricted/special use airspace on a workload permitting basis. In some airspace designations the advisories are mandated regardless of workload.
THe FAR is pretty specific...

Operations in the Special Air Traffic Rule Area.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC), no person may operate an aircraft in flight within the Luke Terminal Area designated in ? 93.176 unless?

(1) Before operating within the Luke Terminal area, that person establishes radio contact with the Luke RAPCON; and

(2) That person maintains two-way radio communication with the Luke RAPCON or an appropriate ATC facility while within the designated area.



I guess it depends on the VFR FF wording given by PHX approach control. You have to be "authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC)" OR talking directly to Luke RAPCON....

So, I think this means that PHX would have to give you specific permission to enter and be in the Special Rules Area.

For my passages through there I've always talked to Luke... note that the wording is similar to Class C requirements -- "establish radio contact".
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  #12  
Old 08-12-2013, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
THe FAR is pretty specific...

Operations in the Special Air Traffic Rule Area.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC), no person may operate an aircraft in flight within the Luke Terminal Area designated in ? 93.176 unless?

(1) Before operating within the Luke Terminal area, that person establishes radio contact with the Luke RAPCON; and

(2) That person maintains two-way radio communication with the Luke RAPCON or an appropriate ATC facility while within the designated area.



I guess it depends on the VFR FF wording given by PHX approach control. You have to be "authorized by Air Traffic Control (ATC)" OR talking directly to Luke RAPCON....

So, I think this means that PHX would have to give you specific permission to enter and be in the Special Rules Area.

For my passages through there I've always talked to Luke... note that the wording is similar to Class C requirements -- "establish radio contact".
Will be headed there next weekend (so it'll be inactive, hopefully), but on return later in the week will no doubt need to "establish radio contact".

Am I correct in assuming that this means the same as Class C? That if I call, and they say "NXXXXX standby", that I'm good to go, but "aircraft calling Luke standby" I'm not? What about "RV calling Luke, standby"????
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  #13  
Old 08-12-2013, 10:20 PM
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You just have to establish 2-way comm with Luke and you are good to go. If they don't answer you, it's not "2-way" yet, so don't poke your nose into the airspace. But I've never had this happen, and I talk to them all the time (my home airport is right next to Luke AFB). They are usually quick with giving you a squawk, and they are always very helpful and patient. Overall a great bunch of young and enthusiastic Air Force controllers. Just be patient with them sometimes too. They do controller training from time to time, and their supervisors appreciate a little slack from pilots when the comm ain't quite perfect. Everybody has to start somewhere...

And I should mention the fun stuff too. I've had a few times--even on weekdays--when returning to Goodyear from the north, Luke APPR has offered me me a straight shot vector right over the top of Luke AFB, right through their pattern. (Obviously, no F-16s are in the pattern at the time.) They do the coordination with Luke TWR, so no freq change. The last time I got this, they said "altitude your discretion" so I went 1,000 AGL over the runways, tower, and a bunch of parked F-16s, and then straight up initial to the overhead at KGYR RWY 21.
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  #14  
Old 08-13-2013, 06:47 AM
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Note about the F-16 traffic:

On more than one occasion when letting down eastbound into Stellar I have had a flight of F-16's cross right in front of me departing Luke southbound. And I don't mean little dots on the horizon... I'm talking close enough to see the pilots looking over at me as they cross my path.

One of the main reasons I'm usually talking to some controlling agency and have all my lights going in this area.
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Last edited by Toobuilder : 08-13-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2013, 08:58 AM
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I'm not sure how ALL F-16s are equipped but "ours" have some sort of radar and can see traffic everywhere. I think the 16s sometimes use that radar to buzz the VFR targets on occasion.
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc View Post
I think the 16s sometimes use that radar to buzz the VFR targets on occasion.
No, you mean that really hppens?

Like the time two Indiana Air National Guard F-16s used me for targeting practice one sunny day. They both crossed over me from 90 degrees about 100' above me. I could smell Jet fuel for 10 minutes!
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  #17  
Old 08-13-2013, 11:49 AM
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I'm not sure where the complaint is... If you ask me that would be awesome to see.
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  #18  
Old 08-13-2013, 12:39 PM
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Not when you aren't expecting it. It scares the heck out of you. It's dangerous too. If I would have made a sudden control change, I'd be toast ( and so would he).
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  #19  
Old 08-13-2013, 03:44 PM
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Well if you were in a MOA at the time, it serves you right. It used to drive me nuts when we'd have to knock off a fight to avoid the guy squawking 1200 trundling right through the middle of the airspace.

But seriously, I don't know a single fighter pilot who would intentionally buzz a civ aircraft. It would be unsafe, against multiple FARs, and a waste of time and fuel. If you saw F-16s up close, there's a good possibility that they didn't see you. They fly departures and arrivals at 350 kts (yes, below 10,000 ft too) and the wingmen have ATC approval to do rejoins at up to 400 kts. The flight lead "should" be able to monitor traffic with his radar, but the wingman is almost always locked to the lead in a single target track radar mode which is great for rejoins, but degrades awareness of other airplanes. Of course, everybody "should" have their eyes out and heads on a swivel, but it's tricky spotting an RV-sized airplane at 350-400 kts.

Luke has a good MACA (midair collision avoidance) pamphlet written for the general public. I highly recommend downloading it here.
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Last edited by Gash : 08-13-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-13-2013, 07:09 PM
planerv6 planerv6 is offline
 
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Default MOA's ignored.

[quote=Gash;797556]Well if you were in a MOA at the time, it serves you right. It used to drive me nuts when we'd have to knock off a fight to avoid the guy squawking 1200 trundling right through the middle of the airspace.

Out west here with so many MOA's I know a lot of pilots who do as you stated and just blow it off and fly right through without checking to see if the MOA is active. Probably not a good habit to get into. Its not that hard to call center and see whats going with the airspace.
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