What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Sebring 75! Aerobatic Contest Sebring, FL

RV8Squaz

Well Known Member
First, a huge shoutout to Karl for finishing first at Apple Valley with a tremendous 82.57%. Terrific job Karl.

Let me start out apologizing for my rotated images. I don't know why TinyPic is doing this. I'm going to change the site I use for image hosting.

We just finished our contest here in Sebring, FL. I will be attending Sebring's First Class awards banquet shortly. We had a good showing in Sportsman with 12 competitors, but there is something wrong with this picture:

2rq27ox.jpg

I'm the only RV here!

Here's the lineup. A lot of strong competitors here with some very capable airplanes:

9r0pxl.jpg


Wayne does an impressive job with this Super D. I've been pulling at his coat tails since I started this competition stuff.
n353jb.jpg


Pat "Richard" Anderson was on fire with his Pitts!
dfhzjt.jpg


This was my closest competition, Ken L in a Giles 202 and Shaun B in Patty Wagstaff's old fire breathing Extra:
ila8lt.jpg


Peter Nassar with his gorgeous RV-7 came for a visit. I first met him at the Snowbird Classic contest in Dunnellon, FL. He intended on competing, but couldn't make it due to weather.
66hiso.jpg


Who says the RV can't be competitive?! I finished 3rd on the 3rd flight and 5th overall. We were all very strong. I was very pleased with my performance and received a lot of great compliments from people that were impressed/surprised with the RV's capability.

2d9bciq.jpg


2gvoges.jpg


Here's a typical scoresheet with some great comments. It's what you do with those scores and comments on the next flight is what matters.
1rfaft.jpg



I'm really hoping to see some more RV's out there competing. This is a ton of fun, will make you a better pilot, and the camaraderie is fantastic!
 
Great write up Jerry. And awesome flying--way to go!

I noticed that you got a couple comments I got last contest. Settling into spin and a barreled 2-point roll on the last figure. I got some ground coaching before Apple Valley and was told "hold it right there" when I capped off the 45 up line just before the spin. I was about 15 degrees nose high. I thought "really?" but hey, it's what the judges see, not what I see. So that's what I did at Apple Valley and it worked.

I'm still trying to straighten out that 2-point roll. One judge gave me a tip yesterday: keep the high rudder in longer since it helps to keep the roll going around. I will play with this idea next time I go up. Half the fun is testing out new ideas people give me.

Thanks again for the write up!
 
Great write up Jerry. And awesome flying--way to go!

I noticed that you got a couple comments I got last contest. Settling into spin and a barreled 2-point roll on the last figure. I got some ground coaching before Apple Valley and was told "hold it right there" when I capped off the 45 up line just before the spin. I was about 15 degrees nose high. I thought "really?" but hey, it's what the judges see, not what I see. So that's what I did at Apple Valley and it worked.

I'm still trying to straighten out that 2-point roll. One judge gave me a tip yesterday: keep the high rudder in longer since it helps to keep the roll going around. I will play with this idea next time I go up. Half the fun is testing out new ideas people give me.

Thanks again for the write up!

Yup, 15 deg NH is what it takes. They like to see a positive break or nose drop and not mush into a stall. An excellent technique is to reach level flight (or very slight climb) with some power on, but be below power off stall speed. That way, when you're ready to spin, you wipe the power off and the airplane stalls and the nose pitches down immediately. I knew this and have been successful using this technique, but I didn't make it happen on this one.

You're right about it being fun trying new ideas or techniques. I had a blast one practice session with a tip I got about modulating the power during a spin, particularly just prior to recovery. I must have done 20 spins that flight!

Take care and good luck on the next contest!
 
nice job Jerry! Great wite up.

I'm Planning to compete at the Hossier Hoedown in Kokomo IN In 2 weeks. I havn't had as much time to practice as I would like, so I'm sticking with the Known for all 3 flights. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
 
Planning on it! I can never get enough Oshkosh (and fresh cheese curds!)

Nationals is within the realm of possibilities.

I think I'll stay away from the cheese Kurds though. I've witnessed what happens when one consumes too many of them! It ain't pretty!:)
 
Jerry, I grew up in Wisconsin. You're right, one must be careful to eat a balanced diet. If you're going to eat a lot of cheese curds, you have to eat a lot of bratwurst too. And get proper exercise by having Packers season tickets. :D
 
Good job Jerry,
Sorry we didn't have more RV's there to join you.
I am surprised you were able to get the contest off with the winds we had this last week.
 
So you RV guys get scared?

ONE guy with an RV showed up.... ONE! Kudos to Jerry for being the lone representative for RV's!

I understand your acro plane is not good for XC flying. I mean a 200MPH plane with only 3.5 hours endurance must be **** on a XC. And all those instruments must be really confusing..... ;)

In all seriousness... What in the heck can we at the IAC CH23 do to get you people interested? I know some of the regular RV folks contacted me before with reasons they would not be there.... But how do I get you people reading this who have not shown up to show up?
 
I was going to make the comment that we were all scared of flying against that scary guy named Ron in the S1S-Pitts but I don't see your name on the Sportsman flight sheet???????
 
But how do I get you people reading this who have not shown up to show up?

I might be able to partially answer this question. From talking to a few other RV pilots, the concerns seem to follow these themes:

1. Equipment. There's a general concern that fuel and oil systems are not adequate for aerobatics. It would be good to keep spreading the word about what is and is not necessary. Ron Schreck's powerpoint slides from Oshkosh are absolutely outstanding for this.

2. Training. RV pilots I've spoken with feel that their experience is inadequate, but are unsure how to get the right training. It would be good to explain that the aerobatic skills and concepts learned in a different airplane translate well into the RV. So if somebody has any interest in doing aerobatics, they will get training. If they don't have the fire in the belly to do aerobatics, then lack of training is a valid (convenient?) excuse.

3. Aircraft suitability. I hear this all the time, even from non-RV pilots. There is a pervasive idea out there that the RV cannot stay inside the aerobatic box because it builds up speed too quickly. This simply is not true. It took me a few flights to learn how to stay inside the box, but once energy management is mastered, it becomes a non-issue.

4. Intimidation. I suffered from this one a bit. The aerobatic competitors always seemed like a different breed to me, and I wasn't sure how I would be received. I finally had to tell myself to forget about it and just show up. When I went to my first contest and basically told everyone "hello, I'm new, and I know nothing" I was quite pleasantly surprised at how down-to-earth and laid back everybody is. It's just a bunch of regular pilots who are happy to welcome us into the sport.

This is an interesting topic to discuss--perhaps it's worthy of it's own thread. I'd like to read other peoples' ideas on this too.
 
I was going to make the comment that we were all scared of flying against that scary guy named Ron in the S1S-Pitts but I don't see your name on the Sportsman flight sheet???????

That is because that ******* moved up to Intermediate! :D
 
I might be able to partially answer this question. From talking to a few other RV pilots, the concerns seem to follow these themes:

1. Equipment. There's a general concern that fuel and oil systems are not adequate for aerobatics. It would be good to keep spreading the word about what is and is not necessary. Ron Schreck's powerpoint slides from Oshkosh are absolutely outstanding for this.

Inverted fuel and oil is nice, but not needed for Sportsman. Primary I competed with a 7ECA, 115HP and no inverted fuel or oil. My normal Sportsman flight was +5/-2 and the -2 was only for less than a few seconds (<5).

2. Training. RV pilots I've spoken with feel that their experience is inadequate, but are unsure how to get the right training. It would be good to explain that the aerobatic skills and concepts learned in a different airplane translate well into the RV. So if somebody has any interest in doing aerobatics, they will get training. If they don't have the fire in the belly to do aerobatics, then lack of training is a valid (convenient?) excuse.

Training is important. Basics and a spin series is all you really need. After that, you can learn the finer points with ground critiquing. Once you know spins and the very basics of a loop, roll, and lines, you can practice and get comfortable on your own.

I am not a CFI, but if anyone in South Florida wants a safety pilot to get coached through the basics, I will be glad to help. I try to hold training days out at 2IS twice a month. And if you want a CFI, we can arrange that.

3. Aircraft suitability. I hear this all the time, even from non-RV pilots. There is a pervasive idea out there that the RV cannot stay inside the aerobatic box because it builds up speed too quickly. This simply is not true. It took me a few flights to learn how to stay inside the box, but once energy management is mastered, it becomes a non-issue.

Having flown an RV4/6 I can tell you that Primary and Sportsman can easily be won by an 8KCAB Decathlon and the 4 and 6 I flew was much better than an 8KCAB. The 8KCAB has been the gold standard for Sportsman for years and the RV series rolls faster and has better vertical. Bill McLean beat me at many contests in his RV4. There is zero reason why an RV could not become the new standard for Sportsman.

Heck, Primary does not even have a box!

4. Intimidation. I suffered from this one a bit. The aerobatic competitors always seemed like a different breed to me, and I wasn't sure how I would be received. I finally had to tell myself to forget about it and just show up. When I went to my first contest and basically told everyone "hello, I'm new, and I know nothing" I was quite pleasantly surprised at how down-to-earth and laid back everybody is. It's just a bunch of regular pilots who are happy to welcome us into the sport.

This is an interesting topic to discuss--perhaps it's worthy of it's own thread. I'd like to read other peoples' ideas on this too.

We try to welcome everyone. There are some clicks, but they don't harm anyone but themselves and seriously, as you learned, most people just want you to show up and have fun.
 
I might be able to partially answer this question. From talking to a few other RV pilots, the concerns seem to follow these themes:

1. Equipment. There's a general concern that fuel and oil systems are not adequate for aerobatics. It would be good to keep spreading the word about what is and is not necessary. Ron Schreck's powerpoint slides from Oshkosh are absolutely outstanding for this.


Anyone interested in my PowerPoint presentation, just send me a PM with your email address and I'll get it to you ASAP. The same information is in my companion article to Van's article on RV aerobatics in the August issue of Sport Aviation.
 
Gash, your points over participation are right on. Here are the highlights of the feedback I've seen on VAF over the years regarding what holds folks back from getting involved in the sport. There are some legit points here, but largely misconceptions. I think many of you have done a great job putting many of these ideas to bed...especially those of you actually winning! ;)

I have considered doing a contest or two but I don't like the herky jerky way you have to do the figures to compete

it is tougher to fly precision aerobatics in an RV than other purpose built aircraft

I was intrigued with the idea several years ago, and even built my 8 with a flop tube and inverted oil. However, after a couple of years of IAC membership -- and reading in each issue of their magazine sad farewells to members who had perished while practicing their routines -- coupled with the unlikely successful egress from an RV-8 -- I took that off my list of things to do in life.

One of my concerns was the "spins not considered recreational aerobatics and not recommended for RV aircraft". Is this accurate? Also, what about feasibility of exiting RV aircraft in an emergency? The "aerobatic designed" aircraft have a long history of strength and emergency egress that I am a little nervous about in the RV.

it will not score well due to difficulty staying in the box

My reservations are: Need of a parachute, need of more insurance, small box for a slippery low G airplane and lack of inverted systems.

For me, I think the issue is training. Not so much availability of appropriate training, although that is a consideration. Cost, on the other hand, is probably my sticking point. I doubt anyone would want to teach from the back seat of a -4, and spending $150 / hour isn't within my near term reach.

An aerobatic competitor friend once told me that "competition aerobatics is a violent sport best flown by violent pilots". One look at the on board video of a Sean Tucker routine seems to confirm this.

Perhaps the real question revolves around developing an interest in competition acro. Recreational acro means flying when and where desired. Competition acro requires travel, time, and money. What does a person get in return for the additional investments? If it's all for fun, then why attend an IAC competition?

I am only interested in "old-man" aerobatics, being able to loop, roll, you know...some +G stuff. I have no interest in competing with my fellow aviators, I just want to do the occasional yank-n-bank and not kill myself or hurt the plane. I can see getting the required training, but again, I don't really care how good the other guy performs.

I guess that to answer your question in my case, I simply enjoy going up and flying free-form acro - I don't feel the need to compete, or to make the perfectly circular loop. I like pulling a loop into an Immelman, rolling on an up line to make cloverleafs, and making up stuff as I go along. I used to enjoy hockey skates more than figure skates as well - I guess it is just how I am wired. I also don't like to get involved in an activity (especially a group activity) if I can't devote enough time to make ti worth everyone's while - and with all the building and flying we do, spending a weekend helping with (and competing in) a meet is just off the bottom of the priority list.

The RV is not a good serious aerobatic aircraft e.g. from competitions. Principally: It does not have a symmetric wing section, It does not have enough "drag", It's spin characteristics are a bit variable - not unsafe, but difficult to get entry/exit clean / crisp enough to satisfy the blind and deaf ones who judge you, It flies best "lightweight", and the inverted oil system / C/S [aerobatic] prop etc. the Aerobatics demand counter this.

if one is looking to "compete" i.e. to "be competitive" or "win" as the primary (or high importance) goal of the airplane, then there are better choices than an RV.

5 or 6 years ago I attended one of the local competetions. Try showing up in your Cherokee. Talk about rejection. I spent about an hour trying to talk and finally packed up and left. Never again. Once I was able to finally own my capable plane I found a good instructor who I fly with regularly. I'm not interested in competetion, ever, especially after that experience. I'm only interested in becoming the best flopper I can be, and I'm getting there, but with no thanks to the self centered perfectionists.

If you truly want to fly competition acro; the Decathlon is the winner hands-down. This may ruffle some feathers, but the RV's aren't very good acro machines - good enough for "gentlemen acro" but no more.

Not to mention from Vans themselves - "Although RVs are capable aerobatic aircraft, we do not recommend them for serious competition aerobatics. Their high speed is not suited to the restricted competition zones. In order to stay "in the box’’ they would have to fly slower and lose the benefit of inertia, or keep the speed up and pull too many Gs".
 
Don't be hard on ourselves...

I know the IAC staff almost salivate when they see the potential new memberships that could be had among the 7000+ RV pilots who fly aerobatic capable airplanes. I am under no illusion that anyone ever built or bought an RV because they wanted to participate in aerobatic competition. So I am not surprised that very few of those 7000+ RV pilots have an interest in IAC membership and even fewer actually want to compete.

I am continually awed by the capabilities of my little RV. Not only can I zip around the globe at nearly 200 MPH at 8 gallons per hour, I can do it at night and in IFR conditions. That's enough for most but a few of us want to experience the thrill of formation flight and even fewer desire to explore the limits of the envelope in aerobatic flight. For a real thrill I enjoy formation aerobatics!

By the time you weed out all the RV enthusiasts who don't care to go any further than formation flight or recreational aerobatics there are precious few who want more. And that's OK with me. Pilots like Karl, Jerry, Bill and others have that fire in the belly that Karl mentioned and have found that challenging themselves through aerobatic competition is somewhat addictive.

I keep getting asked when I am going to buy a purpose-built aerobatic airplane. My answer to that: For me, the thrill and sense of accomplishment that I get from pushing myself and my RV to ever higher goals each year is all I could ever want. As far as I know, prior to this year there has only been one RV pilot that ever flew at the Intermediate level of IAC competition and that was a highly modified RV-4. Well, Bill McLean and myself are both competing at the Intermediate level this season and with a bit of luck and lots of practice I expect we might even take home a little wood before the year is out!

The list of RV pilots flying in IAC competition is growing and I predict that it will grow slowly but steadily as the word spreads.
 
Alan Cassidy in his book Better Aerobatics has something profound to say about the subject:

"The air is a three dimensional environment. Flying is to aerobatics as swimming is to scuba diving. To explore the latter, you need first to learn the former. Expand this analogy to develop a scale of involvement and passion. The progression is exponential. Flying a circuit is a length of an indoor pool. A cross-country flight to Spain is swimming a kilometer out to sea. Aerobatics is diving the coral reef and cavorting with dolphins."
 
I keep getting asked when I am going to buy a purpose-built aerobatic airplane. My answer to that: For me, the thrill and sense of accomplishment that I get from pushing myself and my RV to ever higher goals each year is all I could ever want.

Yep, same as people asking me when I'm gonna get a monoplane. ;)
 
I stand corrected...

This morning I received an email from Allan Franko, a competition acro pilot from Canada who pointed to some errors in my previous post (#20) to this thread. His email is forwarded, with permission below:

Dear Mr. Schreck,

I am impressed with the work you have done to promote participation by RV owners in IAC contests. However, the statement you just made on the RV forum is so incomplete that it really should be amended:


"As far as I know, prior to this year there has only been one RV pilot that ever flew at the Intermediate level of IAC competition and that was a highly modified RV-4."

I personally competed against Scott Riddell in UNLIMITED when he flew his 160 hp RV4! He placed 4th, with a decent score of 64%, in the 1993 Beaver State Regional in Pendleton, Oregon (results in the March 94 issue of Sport Aerobatics). I watched his flights with interest, and I think he was limited more by horsepower than airframe capability. In 1990 at the same contest he won Advanced with a score of 82% (February 1991 issue)!

Previously he competed in Intermediate and he and his father competed in Sportsman, but I don't have those results handy. (A good project for IAC would be to put all those old results online.)

Ralph Riddell wrote a description of the plane on pages 18 & 19 of the September 1991 issue of Sport Aerobatics. The modifications were for lightness (no battery, starter, or fibreglas wingtips) and for roll rate (3 feet extra inboard for the ailerons and no flaps), and spades on the ailerons and a servo tab on the elevator to reduce control forces. If this was the RV you mentioned as competing in Intermediate, it was hardly "extensively modified". Compared to the average homebuilt competing in Advanced or Unlimited it was maybe slightly modified.

Allan Franko
BC Canada
IAC 7513


I did find the article from the September 1991 issue of Sport Aerobatics which was written by Scott Riddell's father, Ralph. It does confirm that Scott did successfully compete at the Advanced level in his RV-4, having won four contests at that level. Quite an achievement! Allan mentioned that Scott flew at least one contest at the Unlimited level and while a score of 64% is not likely to impress, the fact that he was even able to complete an Unlimited sequence speaks pretty highly of the pilot and the airplane.

I do take issue with Allan's contention that Scott's RV-4 was only "slightly modified". If I did the same modifications to my RV-8 it would no longer be suitable for anything but aerobatic competition. I would still consider the modifications "extensive". You be the judge.

My thanks to Allan Franko for shedding some light on this story. Unfortunately the on-line record of IAC competition results only goes back to 2006; same for the archive of Sport Aerobatics magazine. I did find the 1991 article about Scott Riddell in my archives and include it here:



 
Amazing story and amazing accomplishments.

Am surprised to read the low entry speeds, especially

"Loop - 100-140 mph" and
"Hammerhead - 100-140 mph".

Looks like in addition to being very light (too bad he didn't provide an empty weight), he was flying an extreme climb prop of 72x60, which probably made those entry speeds a lot more do-able.

Wonder if anyone else has tried to increase RV roll rates w/ longer ailerons. Expect Van might not like the idea.
 
I might be able to partially answer this question. From talking to a few other RV pilots, the concerns seem to follow these themes:

1. Equipment. There's a general concern that fuel and oil systems are not adequate for aerobatics. It would be good to keep spreading the word about what is and is not necessary. Ron Schreck's powerpoint slides from Oshkosh are absolutely outstanding for this.

2. Training. RV pilots I've spoken with feel that their experience is inadequate, but are unsure how to get the right training. It would be good to explain that the aerobatic skills and concepts learned in a different airplane translate well into the RV. So if somebody has any interest in doing aerobatics, they will get training. If they don't have the fire in the belly to do aerobatics, then lack of training is a valid (convenient?) excuse.

3. Aircraft suitability. I hear this all the time, even from non-RV pilots. There is a pervasive idea out there that the RV cannot stay inside the aerobatic box because it builds up speed too quickly. This simply is not true. It took me a few flights to learn how to stay inside the box, but once energy management is mastered, it becomes a non-issue.

4. Intimidation. I suffered from this one a bit. The aerobatic competitors always seemed like a different breed to me, and I wasn't sure how I would be received. I finally had to tell myself to forget about it and just show up. When I went to my first contest and basically told everyone "hello, I'm new, and I know nothing" I was quite pleasantly surprised at how down-to-earth and laid back everybody is. It's just a bunch of regular pilots who are happy to welcome us into the sport.

This is an interesting topic to discuss--perhaps it's worthy of it's own thread. I'd like to read other peoples' ideas on this too.


I think the issues mentioned above are certainly seen as barriers for some. However, for someone that has the desire to compete, the issues can certainly be overcome.

1. An airplane with low power, fixed pitch prop, and no inverted systems can easily compete in Primary and Sportsman. The inverted systems can be added if desired.

2. Training can be gotten. Aerobatic instructors, aerobatic schools, ground coaching are all available, maybe not locally. But if the desire is there, I'm sure the effort can be made to get the appropriate training.

3. This has already been proven. Is it more effort to stay in the box? Sure it is, more g and not too much speed and not too much straight and level is the key. But the RV also has some other great attributes that make it a formidable competitor. I know my Super D friends wish they had the energy and vertical penetration I have in my airplane.

4. Just do it! Introduce yourself. Meet some people. You can have a bad experience similar to the Cherokee guy mentioned in Eric's post anywhere. Many of the competitors are brand new to competition and some are even brand new to aviation!

I think a lot of the quotes in Eric's posting are largely misconceptions or excuses. I think if the desire is there, the misconceptions and excuses will disappear.

So that is what I think the key is, DESIRE. We have 42 RV's on my airport and I'm the only one competing! I haven't been able to infect anyone with the IAC bug. True, many of these RV's are non-aerobatic -9, -10, and -12, but we do have many aerobatic RVs flown by some very capable pilots. I don't really know why they don't desire to compete. Most are happy doing the occasional loop and roll, gentleman aerobatics, which is what the RV was designed to do.

I have always had the desire to this. I rented a Decathlon and then a Super Decathlon while in college using my grocery money and my ROTC stipend to pay for it. I was a lot thinner then! Just when I thought I could start competing, the FBO sold the airplane and I graduated. It wasn't until 20+ years later when I had my own airplane, the RV-8 that I thought about this competition thing again. I outfitted my airplane for aerobatics from the very beginning. I flew aerobatics on almost every flight I wasn't going somewhere.

My primary barrier to competition was time. Most contests are a two or three day event starting on a Thursday or Friday leading into the weekend. In my current job, I didn't start regularly getting weekends off until the last year or two. Also, my son is a teenager now and he's often doing his own things on the weekends.

Then I met Ron Shreck and the timing was right. If I was going to ever compete, this was the time! I've been having a BLAST! I've made a lot of new friends and have taken myself and my RV way beyond what I thought was possible. It has been extremely challenging and rewarding. It's made me a better pilot and it has been FUN!!!

So how do I think we instill the desire in people to compete and overcome the barriers? I think threads like this and articles in magazines such as Sport Aviation and AOPA. I think if one is reading Sport Aerobatics, they already have some desire. Invite your friends to come out and watch you practice. Invite them to an aerobatic practice clinic. Let's keep on getting the word out!
 
Back
Top