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RV-3: The Cockpit Matures

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
One of the things that it sometimes awhile to get across to new builders is that if you want to finish an airplane project, you will find that progress has to be measured in millimeters. There is a list of tasks that must be completed to get to first flight, and until they are all done, it doesn?t make any difference if they are large or small ? nothing flies until it all flies. I remind myself of it during weeks like this when I spent most of my shop hours doing panel painting and labels. No, I didn?t mount the wings, now, I didn?t hang the engine ? or plumb it, or put the gear on?..but those things will come in their turn. My next major milestone is wiring the panel and cockpit so that all that is complete before the airplane gets ?taller? and harder to work on. And in order to wire, you need to have everything in place. To have everything in place, it helps to have everything painted ? and if you?re painting, why not get the labels done as well? Before you know it, the cockpit looks complete (even though nothing is truly functional). So?time to show a little of what our RV-3 will look like from the pilot?s perspective!

It has been a fun and interesting challenge to fit everything we needed to support a safe, redundant IFR package into such a small airplane. The G3X screens obviously dominate the panel, along with the G3Pilot and the hole on the lower right is where a TT ADI will go. The main panel has minimum number of switches ? the fuel pump is right where your hand falls naturally while on the throttle, and the Starter switch is there for your right hand. Panel lighting and a dimmer switch for the annunciator panel are the only other ones ? right where you want them when going for panel lights. The canopy bow takes away a ?? wide strip of useful panel ? a significant portion of an already small panel, and had to be considered carefully during the design. The side console got Camlocs for latches this week, and we are hoping to add the ?Fatboy? throttle handle in the near future. The screens are powered in ?demo? mode with a temporary harness ? nothing else is wired up yet.

IMG_0419.JPG


The Garmin boxes have redundant power feeds built in, so that necessitated a dual-bus system, and extra circuit breakers to support the architecture. I used the compact Klixon breakers to maximize breakers in minimum space, and am satisfied the way the electrical panel turned out. Basically, the entire electrical system (busses, switches, isolation diodes) resides in that panel, along with lighting switches. Labeling isn?t quite complete, but far enough along to show. For me, breakers are much handier than fuses for a glass cockpit airplane, since a lot of time is spent doing configuration work which requires power cycles. It?s not about the flying (I almost never reset popped breakers during flight!), it?s about the maintenance!

IMG_0422.JPG


The throttle quadrant is pretty much done except for the cables themselves ? that should be typically frustrating, trying to fit three cables through the center section bulkhead with any structure left at all! The ignition switches found their natural place all by themselves ? some problems just solve themselves! As noted above, we?ll be trying to incorporate a new throttle lever ? assuming it fits, it will have a PTT in addition to the one on the stick. The stick will have the usual array of switches, including flaps, trim, PTT, autopilot CWS switch, etc. The stick boot was left over from my RV-8 interior ? never did figure out how to mount a forward stick boot on that airplane! The radio stack is both visible and reachable from a comfortable sitting position ? I am surprised myself how nice that turned out from a human factors perspective.

IMG_0423.JPG


I guess that now that the ?art project? of cockpit layout is complete, it is time to dig out the avionics schematics and build some wiring harnesses ? then we?ll see if I can keep all the magic smoke installed per the factory configuration drawings?.

Paul
 
Looks great Paul. Can you tell me about your annunciator panel? I thought I would do the same thing you did for the first one in your -8, and I thought I had bookmarked the thread where you talked about it, but I can't find it.

What are the lenses, type of lights, how did you build it, and what are you annunciating. Thanks.
 
Hi Bill,

The annunciator is built with some square, 12 volt LED's that I found at our local electronics parts outlet a couple of years ago. I rebuilt the Val's with them , did the RV-6 with them, and now used them on the -3. The bezel is a cheat - the indicator lights have round stems - you drill 1/2" holes in the panel, mount them individually, then build a bezel around them for no other reason than appearance. The last time I wrote about these, Gil Alexander found a link where you can buy them in about five minutes....

Paul
 
An RV-3?

I believe you have spent way too much time in the shuttle sim!!:D

Looks great tho.

David
 
With Vertical Power an others out there... why all the circuit breakers?

Why not Vertical Power? No slight against Marc’s product – I simply find that I personally don’t need that level of automation with this type of aircraft. I find a bus/beaker system to be highly reliable and easily controlled – I can power cycle the EFIS Display Units by pulling and bushing a breaker – saves a switch, and it is quick to do. There really is nothing very complex about the time-tested wiring harness system – everything is either at 12 volts or ground, and is as simple as loads and sources. Wiring is simply not a chore. This particular system is very easy to operate, simple to understand, and has good redundancy. Cost really isn’t that much of an issue either way – whether VP or traditional, it’s a small percentage of what you’re going to spend on the airplane as a whole. The bottom line is that I like the simplicity and control I get from a traditional system. And…it’s a LOT simpler than what I fly on a basis.

I believe you have spent way too much time in the shuttle sim!!:D

Nah...the Shuttle's panel is nowhere near this capable....:)
 
Paul,

I'm old school and I get nervous when I don't see pitot heat and alt static air in an IFR airplane. Am I missing it? Or are the G3X's good enough on GPS alone that you figure loss of pitot/static is a non-issue?

--Paul
 
Paul,

I'm old school and I get nervous when I don't see pitot heat and alt static air in an IFR airplane. Am I missing it? Or are the G3X's good enough on GPS alone that you figure loss of pitot/static is a non-issue?

--Paul

Good eye Paul - I am still deciding whre to put the Pitot Heat switch (there is already a breaker for it), and Alt Static is a valve you don't see in these pics.
 
Good eye Paul - I am still deciding whre to put the Pitot Heat switch.

Might I suggest the space on the main panel above your steam gauge ASI and to the left of the PFD?

That's about where I had a lighted pushbutton switch on my rev1 panel, and am putting it on rev2. It's in my scan, annunciates with he lighted switch, and right next to the affected instruments. Works for me, and seems very natural.
 
Might I suggest the space on the main panel above your steam gauge ASI and to the left of the PFD?

That's about where I had a lighted pushbutton switch on my rev1 panel, and am putting it on rev2. It's in my scan, annunciates with he lighted switch, and right next to the affected instruments. Works for me, and seems very natural.

That's a possibility, yes. I was originally going to use the switch to the left of the backup ASI for pitot heat, changed my mind based on frequency of use (I almost never turn on Pitot Heat because I am very conservative when it comes to clouds and cold temperatures....) of the various switches. Since the switch isn't actually wired yet, it is easy to change my mind at this point. Some switches are absolutely, positively be what they are.

I do have an Annunciator light to tell me that the Pitot heat is on, so the tell-tale is covered.

Paul
 
Awesome!

Paul and Louise, you have an amazing plane. The workmanship and attention to detail speaks for itself. Maybe not the shuttle, but definately a work of art.
I'm sure the rest of the plane is just as awesome.Congrats!
Tom
 
Milt, you missed the switches on the stick, and various avionics----------:rolleyes:
I am getting sloppy in my old age.:eek:

My wife, like Louise likes to keep me working on the plane saying it keeps me out of trouble.

Awesome workmanship on the 3 Louise, you and Paul are gonna love it when it's done.
 
Another one

Looking good. You're making some mad progress on that thing! The attention to detail and forethought really shines through in what you have done with the cockpit - thanks for the inspiration!
 
If those pics dont make someone want to build a 3 then nothing will. I really like how the throttle and switch/breaker quadrants are flush with the F305(?) bulkheads. My throttle is fixed now, but I might have to steal that idea on the switch side.
 
Gorgeous!

Totally amazing that a design that began life as a day/vfr sport plane can be transformed to an all-weather interceptor with synthetic vision, WAAS-guidance, a digital autopilot, terrain, and traffic warnings, etc., all at about the same weight as the original.

The only thing better than a G3X is two G3Xs!
 
Looking good!

Really nice work, Paul.

It's gonna be interesting to see how you and Louise decide who's gonna be RV-3 pilot. Coin flip, short straws, paper-rock-scissors, take turns, phase of moon, day of the week, roll of dice, even or odd orbit of ISS, random number generator, DJIA trend, etc.

You could have a VAF contest to help you decide. :D

Looking forward to the first flight report.
 
If those pics dont make someone want to build a 3 then nothing will. .


Boy Howdy!!

I have been cogitating building a 3 for close to two years. My better half has really let me know that would not be wise until I unload one of the other planes.

I am gonna have to quit looking at Pauls posts cause they are making me want to sneak off with the checkbook and order a kit.
 
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Bingo!

Totally amazing that a design that began life as a day/vfr sport plane can be transformed to an all-weather interceptor with synthetic vision, WAAS-guidance, a digital autopilot, terrain, and traffic warnings, etc., all at about the same weight as the original.

The only thing better than a G3X is two G3Xs!

I think that you've nailed the point there Dave - one of the things that I am finding that I find most interesting about this build is the idea that we are building a much more capable airplane than it was originally designed to be, and doing it with very little weight gain - all because of the advances in modern avionics.

Let's face it, human flight went from kitty hawk to the moon in 66 years, yet our basic airframes have now changed little in the past what, forty? The major advances in aviation have been in avionics, not aeronautics in the past several decades!

And yup - the second G3X screen really doesn't cost much once you've bought the initial package. Just think - a panel blank is only $32.....very easy to replace....scrape together the pennies, and you'll probably end up lighter than you are now!;)

Oh, and Milt - you can just tell her that you can fly an RV-3 for an hour on the gas that it takes to start, warm up, and taxi the Radial.....:)

Paul
 
What I'd like to know is.....

....whether or not Louise does acro. Have you given her any dual in either the Val or Mikey?

Methinks that Louise will be rather tempted to get the belly oily once Jr. flies:)

Best,
 
Hey Paul.

I notice that you have a guarded start switch on the right side of the panel.

Does this mean you're holding the stick back (tailwheel) with your knees during start?

I've been tempted to put a guarded "starter enable" switch on the panel and then a recessed "starter engage" button in a non-inadvertent place on a stick grip. That way, one hand on the throttle, one holding the stick back and engaging the starter. But I'm also cognizant of the "Adding complexity and failure modes" discussions resulting from this choice.

I know there have been lots of posts and opinions posted about holding the stick back or not... I'd like to hear your version.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Hey Pau.

I notice that you have a guarded start switch on the right side of the panel.

Does this mean you're holding the stick back (tailwheel) with your knees during start?

I've been tempted to put a guarded "starter enable" switch on the panel and then a recessed "starter engage" button in a non-inadvertent place on a stick grip. That way, one hand on the throttle, one holding the stick back and engaging the starter. But I'm also cognizant of the "Adding complexity and failure modes" discussions resulting from this choice.

I know there have been lots of posts and opinions posted about holding the stick back or not... I'd like to hear your version.

Thanks in advance.

I have my start button on the stick, wired through the ignition switches and a normally-closed oil pressure switch. The starter won't activate unless I have an ignition switched on, and won't activate if there is oil pressure. This setup has worked great, but doing it again I'd probably go with a panel-mounted button just for simplicity. With proper use of the throttle I think there's little risk of nosing over during startup.
 
With proper use of the throttle I think there's little risk of nosing over during startup.
... and with improper use of the throttle, there is a risk of a noseover wherever the stick is :eek:

Also important are the brakes - ensure they are off, but covered, and a clear area ahead.

Andy
 
Paul, the panel looks great. I sold my 8 last year, and don't tell the wife, but I just ordered the preview plans for the 3B!!! It won't be long now till the rest is ordered and construction begins. I read on the post that you were using some CB's as switches. Just some trivia but Willie Messerschmidt did the same thing on the BF-109. I assume that with 33,000 of the type having been built that CB's work really well in place of switches in a cockpit with limited space. I can't wait to see your 3 finished. Joel McMillian
 
Weight ?

Just an observation, honest.

One of the great things about building is the freedom to customize and make these machines our own but isn't it interesting how acceptable it has become to build a 750lb empty,1100 lb gross wt. design, at almost 900lbs empty and pick a new gross wt. of 1300lbs...an almost 20% increase.

Mike
 
Totally amazing that a design that began life as a day/vfr sport plane can be transformed to an all-weather interceptor with synthetic vision, WAAS-guidance, a digital autopilot, terrain, and traffic warnings, etc., all at about the same weight as the original.

Keep in mind the original weighed about 690 lbs! Mine weighed the same, since it was set up exactly like the prototype, including the O-290G. Most new ones are around 800 lbs. The -3 is the plane I'd want to come back to when I get rid of the Pitts.
 
Our target is 800lbs basic, and constrained to a gross of 1175lb (UK). This is with IO-320, C/S Prop [has to be MT really], Inverted system. It will be a challenge, but I do know our avionics bill will be somewhat smaller than Paul's :D

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV-3B in s l o w build :eek:
RV-8tors
 
The acro capacity isn't for me

....whether or not Louise does acro. Have you given her any dual in either the Val or Mikey?

Methinks that Louise will be rather tempted to get the belly oily once Jr. flies:)

Best,

You may be right, but I haven't had much interest in acro to date. I'm a pretty timid pilot. And, since Paul isn't a CFI, he hasn't undertaken giving me lessons. I'm mostly looking forward to the cheaper commute and cozy cockpit in a plane that climbs like crazy.
 
Paul gets Phase 1, I get Phase 2

It's gonna be interesting to see how you and Louise decide who's gonna be RV-3 pilot. Coin flip, short straws, paper-rock-scissors, take turns, phase of moon, day of the week, roll of dice, even or odd orbit of ISS, random number generator, DJIA trend, etc.
Interesting suggestions! I figure that Paul will get the first flights and priority during Phase 1. Seems only fair that I get priority after that, don't you think? :rolleyes:
 
He doesn't need to be a CFI..

You may be right, but I haven't had much interest in acro to date. I'm a pretty timid pilot. And, since Paul isn't a CFI, he hasn't undertaken giving me lessons. I'm mostly looking forward to the cheaper commute and cozy cockpit in a plane that climbs like crazy.

....to show you a few rolls and loops:)

Best,
 
I notice that you have a guarded start switch on the right side of the panel.

Does this mean you're holding the stick back (tailwheel) with your knees during start?

Yes – I have the exact same configuration on my -8, and it works just fine. On Louise’s -6, we do the same thing (except that the key switch is for the left hand, right hand on throttle, stick in the knees). I have found that it takes an AWFUL amount of throttle to lift the tail, and you’d have to be pretty ham-handed with the throttle to have that happen during start.

Paul, the panel looks great. I sold my 8 last year, and don't tell the wife, but I just ordered the preview plans for the 3B!!! It won't be long now till the rest is ordered and construction begins. I read on the post that you were using some CB's as switches. Just some trivia but Willie Messerschmidt did the same thing on the BF-109. I assume that with 33,000 of the type having been built that CB's work really well in place of switches in a cockpit with limited space.

To be fair – most of those probably didn’t last long enough for the circuit breakers to wear out form over-use….;)

Seriously, I have no problem using circuit breakers as OCCASIONAL (contingency or emergency use) switches, but if the load is going to be switched as part of a normal checklist, I will put in a switch. Breakers will wear out if used too often (more than a few thousand cycles or so?) A certain well-known space plane has lots and lots of breakers that are used as switches, and they do occasionally get a bit weak – after a couple of decades of being used that way.

One of the great things about building is the freedom to customize and make these machines our own but isn't it interesting how acceptable it has become to build a 750lb empty,1100 lb gross wt. design, at almost 900lbs empty and pick a new gross wt. of 1300lbs...an almost 20% increase.

True – but then again, we are talking an airplane with an 160 HP IO-320 turning a lightweight Whirlwind-151 constant speed prop instead of an O-235 swinging an over-twisted fixed-pitch. That sorta makes up for the increase in weight over the original. And don’t forget that the -3B has a lot more fuel than the original (wing tanks versus fuselage). All in all, with the lightweight avionics, this airplane will match most modern RV-3B’s with more traditional panels for weight, and I am happy with that.

Oh, as for Acro Instruction - I prefer that Louise learn it from someone that teaches it every day, in an airplane well-suited for Acro instruction. Besides, we don't (currently) own two parachutes. And....there is that thing about husbands teaching/not teaching wives to fly....;)
 
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Oh, as for Acro Instruction - I prefer that Louise learn it from someone that teaches it every day, inan airplane well-suited for Acro instruction. Besides, we don't (currently) own two parachutes. And....there is that thing about husbands teaching/not teaching wives to fly....;)

Bah, I teach my wife all the time, just gotta know who is boss;)
........and she wins every time!
 
Paul,

What do you expect the empty weight to be?

Thanks,
Dave


I don't have a real target, other than "Par". Randy's came in at 889 after paint and his battery move. Ours will probably be in the neighborhood. How big a neighborhood? We don't have enough data to predict that right now. Bt with similar airframe and FWF, should be reasonable.
 
Now the next question is whats the exterior going to look like?? Any influences from Mikey or the Val?? Or are you going with an all new paint scheme??

-david
 
Now the next question is whats the exterior going to look like?? Any influences from Mikey or the Val?? Or are you going with an all new paint scheme??

Please! I didn't have a paint scheme for the Val until a week before dropping it off at Grady's for paint.....:rolleyes:
 
Paul, I've been enjoying studying to death your layout of panel equipment and switches, as I continue to writhe and agonize about my own (RV-7 sorta VFR/IFR EFIS) panel. I can't quite tell what the switches are at the upper right, one of which is surrounded by a Perihelion guard. Obviously I'm not trying to duplicate your layout (side by side panels being rather more roomy, not to mention completely different) but I am very concerned about the ergonomic aspects of my choice of switch gear, and so I enjoy looking at your solutions. Thanks for sharing and much praise from this corner on an aesthetic layout!
 
Junior showed me a thing or two..

Paul, I've been enjoying studying to death your layout of panel equipment and switches, as I continue to writhe and agonize about my own (RV-7 sorta VFR/IFR EFIS) panel. <snip>

Lars- Keep studying Paul's design concepts. I had the good fortune last evening to actually sit in Junior and put my hands on EVERYTHING. After about 3 minutes of familiarization and making airplane sounds, I then closed my eyes and tested several scenarios. To my surprise, I didn't miss a button or switch! Everything was in a logical (systems) order and within comfortable reach. Our community is indeed fortunate to have Paul and Louise on OUR team. Each brings a high level of expertise to the table and together they graciously share with anyone who shows an interest.

Aside: Thanks Paul and Louise for allowing me to take Junior's controls for a few minutes. I learned a lot and Junior seemed pleased to have the opportunity to show off.
 
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I can't quite tell what the switches are at the upper right, one of which is surrounded by a Perihelion guard.

The switch in the upper right with the Shuttle switch guard is the Avionics Master - it is lever locked so that you can't accidentally turn it off and lose everything while IFR - it is a tight cockpit, and bumping things is always an option. The red covered switch next to that is to put the Essential Bus directly on to the main battery, in case of a Main bus short. This is but one of a variety of ways to build a redundant bus system.

And Ernie, you know that you are weclome any time - I get a great deal of useful feedback from you, even when you don't know it! One thing, for instance, is that I always ask you for a "Reach and Vis" evaluation, because you have slightly shorter arms than I do - if you can reach, then we're going to be good!

Paul
 
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The switch in the upper right with the Shuttle switch guard is the Avionics Master - it is lever locked so that you can't accidentally turn it off and lose everything while IFR - it is a tight cockpit, and bumping things is always an option. The red covered switch next to that is to put the Essential Bus directly on to the main battery, in case of a Main bus short. This is but one of a variety of ways to build a redundant bus system.l

Ah. Thanks for that information. I have most of my electrical architecture figured out (at least on paper, while reserving the right to be fickle) and plan have an essential/endurance bus with switch. The guard sounds like a good idea, plus it means easily finding it by feel.
 
So, you are building a dual battery setup ----- do you also have dual alternators ?

No to dual alternators, but yes to an auxilliary battery (4-5 Ah) - mostly to prevent the brown-out of the EFIS during start, but also to provide emergency "get down" power for the IFR critical avionics.

Yes, it's a -3....but it's an IFR -3!
 
------ yes to an auxiliary battery (4-5 Ah) - mostly to prevent the brown-out of the EFIS during start----

This is one of the things I was looking to achieve with my 10.

The EFIS does not even notice when I start the engine:D

Instead of a switch to tie into the main buss, I just put a diode in there, and figured that the juice would come from whichever battery was best able to handle the load.

I do have a switch controlled contactor to cross tie the batteries for starting, if needed, but I am using a 680 as my backup, so it makes sense.
 
Paul,
Could you post a simple diagram of the power distribution portion of your wiring? I'm interested in just the alternator - battery 1 - battery 2 / and switches to control the busses.
 
Paul,
Could you post a simple diagram of the power distribution portion of your wiring? I'm interested in just the alternator - battery 1 - battery 2 / and switches to control the busses.

I will when I am certain that the scheme is what I want. As with any design, I am letting it age a bit before I commit! (I also have some folks I trust look it over to see if I have missed anything.)

Oh - here is an updated picture of the throttle quadrant with the new Fatboy grip that I recieved this afternoon. it took just a little tweaking to install it in my DJM quadrant, and to make the bends right for the RV-3 - it fits to my hand better than any throttle I have ever held!

Throttle Closed:
IMG_0437.JPG


Throttle Open:
IMG_0438.JPG
 
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We had two updates this week since I started this thread, so thought I?d add them in case anyone is interested ? the new throttle handle from Fatboy was installed, and the hole for the ADI was filled with a new 2-1/4? ADI from Tru Trak! That completes the panel payout with redundant flight instrumentation and all. We have had the 3-18? ADI in Louise?s six since before the panel was upgraded, and I find it very easy to fly as a backup (or primary for that matter) instrument. I am impressed that they have added a low airspeed warning to the latest version ? this is a great idea in my opinion, since the ?pitch? indication on the ADI is not really pitch, but rather rate of climb or descent. As folks have pointed out before, if you got into a backside-of-the-power-curve situation, you could potentially stall the airplane if you pitched up high enough and had enough power (man, the engine would be screaming in an RV!), and having a low airspeed warning takes away this dilemma ? I like that!

IMG_0440.JPG


Now it is time to see if I can fit all the wires into the electrical panel and see if I have enough wire to build all the harnesses ? once the shop warms up to the point that I don ?t need to wear gloves. It?s hard to work with 22 gauge wire with gloves on?;)
 
Yet another random panel question...

You have probably answered this already and maybe I even saw it and forgot, but what materials did you use to label switches and breakers? I've been contemplating having engraved placards made that would be retained by the nuts on the switches, but they are bulkier and I'm starting to think they'll make my panel look (gasp!) cluttered.
 
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