Here is a question for you Flying RV7/6/9's with a Slider. I just finished riveting the side skirts and they came out better then expected and I thought that the rear skirts where respectable until I installed the canopy to rivet the rear skirts. With the rear skirts installed I just can't get them to fit no matter how I form them. The gaps are only at the bottoms (About 1/8 - 1/4 inch. The question is, other than esthetics, should I really spend that much time getting this to lay flat against the fuselage or is this something that won't matter when flying. I'm to the point where I'm going to just glass it.
Van's Air Force
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Sliding Canopy rear skirts
- Thread starter rglick
- Start date
petehowell
Well Known Member
I used Fiberglass
I could not get mine to fit well - so I laid them up using FG. It worked well for me. Vern Little has pictures and a guide on his website.
I could not get mine to fit well - so I laid them up using FG. It worked well for me. Vern Little has pictures and a guide on his website.
Fit is Important
The sliding canopy is the premier eye catching item in the design in my opinion and the final result is worth a lot of watchmaker precision and extra effort. The rear gaps will allow cold air to enter.
Rear Skirt installation and sealing - I followed the information in the Orndorff video but I do not remember the details exactly (the details are important in this part of the airplane - canopy) but I followed them very carefully and the skirt came out very well. One of the "tricks" was to block up the rear of the frame to get a little interference fit between the skirt and the fuselage skin, then trim for the final fit. I don't remember if I did most of the final trimming with clecoed skirts or pop riveted. Down on the sides at the rear corners there was a gap that may have been as much as 1/4" altough that seems a little big. I tried reforming it for a closer fit with limited success. The main thing I wanted to do was to bring it within a range that I could seal upon closure. I kept doing very fine trimming until I had a fit that no longer scuffed the fuselage skin upon closure. Then I used the soft white rubber "P" strip for a seal. I glued mine to the underside of the skirt set back from the edge enough to conceal the rubber, provide a seal and prevent abrasion of the the fuselage skin by metal to metal contact. This has worked very well in actual operation for around 160 hours.
I had been made sensitive to the draft prone nature of the sliding canopy design by Ken Scott many years ago so I really focused on making sure mine was air tight during the build. I'm going to tell you what I did in each area and you can evolve your own solutions or fly only in nice weather most of the time which is a solution also.
The center canopy rail track hole in the rear skirts - I made a loose fitting hat for the skirt hole over the rail and a plug to slide on the rail that seals the hole upon closure as I am told Tracy Saylor did (I have never seen his design). I had a lot of things to learn to evolve this system into a reliable operating closure seal. My plug is laminated balsa wood covered with fiberglass with sealing rubber in a central band around the plug. The plug is pushed back by the plastic block that guides the canopy upon opening. The Plug is pulled into the closure position by four individually tied waxed nylon wire bundle lacing tape (flat nylon string with a waxy impregnation - available from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty) and there is piece of clear plastic tubing on the pairs of strings (two from each side of the plug) to keep them from dropping into the gap where the skin is cut and bent down under the rail and wearing and breaking. Two eye hooks are made from very fine safety wire (.020"?) for tying the pull strings to the plug. These eye hooks need mechanical security so they are pushed through the plug then a "U" is formed and the wire is pulled to embed the bent back hooks into the block. I actually formed the "eyes" with needle nose pliers after the pull wires were anchored in the block. With the canopy off and inverted, and the strings tied to the plug hooks and routed through the plastic tubing,I layed the plug in the hat where I wanted it to rest at closure and tied the pull strings to the canopy plastic guide block attach bolt. The canopy is more difficult to install because I now have to get the plastic block on the rail and then get the plug on the rail before I can install the frame on the side roller plugs. Once the canopy is in place I had to add a small silicon drag bump at the rear of the rail (I put it on the last screw head) to allow the plug to pass if pushed but keep it from flying off the rail during normal opening.
Front end sealing - I glued a continuous piece of the soft white rubber "P" strip between the roll bar and the fiberglass that extends back from the windscreen over the slider. This simple seal fit and works perfectly.
Side sealing back to the end of the roller guide extrusions - There are on continuous straight line mating surfaces between the side canopy skirt and the fuselage through the full range of opening and closing travel of the canopy. I observed that the extrusion's outer curved surfaces are perfectly straight and aligned with the canopy motion throughout the full opening and closing travel. What was needed was a mating surface on the canopy. I made a rib out of 3/16" aluminum bar stock to conform the the side skirt contour (I used the fuselage contour outboard of the final position of the extrusion in making the patterns) on the outside leaving the natural straight edge of the bar stock aligned with the maximum radius of the outer each of extrusion. Using the normal techniques for aligning the ribs with the maximum outward extension of the extrusion outer radius I double flush riveted them in place on the inner surface of the canopy skirt. I then used the patterns for the ribs to cut over wide ribs out of sheet rubber for a seal. These are glued to the underside of the aluminum ribs which places them in alignment with the curved extrusion surface just a little below the maximum extension point of that extrusion curve so any attempt to force air into the canopy at this point forces the rubber tighter against the extrusion.
Sealing the area between the side roller extrusion and the upper aft Fuselage Skin - The drawings show this skirt skag hanging down over the side of the fuselage to cover this hole. I reasoned that an extension up from the fuselage behind the skirt would achieve the same thing. I cut a piece of 1/16" aluminum angle for each side that extends from the aft end of the extrusion to inside the upper aft fuselage skin on top of the longeron and riveted them to the longerons and the skin. This area is a fairly tight fit with insuficient room for a rubber seal so I coated the fuselage side of the interface to prevent sticking and applied silicon ruber RTV to the mating canopy skirt area and closed the canopy to achieve a formed fit.
The canopy is snug and the small gaps that occur between the rear skirts and the fuselage are not only not a problem some is necessary to prevent scuffing the skin/paint and assure a seal.
Bob Axsom
The sliding canopy is the premier eye catching item in the design in my opinion and the final result is worth a lot of watchmaker precision and extra effort. The rear gaps will allow cold air to enter.
Rear Skirt installation and sealing - I followed the information in the Orndorff video but I do not remember the details exactly (the details are important in this part of the airplane - canopy) but I followed them very carefully and the skirt came out very well. One of the "tricks" was to block up the rear of the frame to get a little interference fit between the skirt and the fuselage skin, then trim for the final fit. I don't remember if I did most of the final trimming with clecoed skirts or pop riveted. Down on the sides at the rear corners there was a gap that may have been as much as 1/4" altough that seems a little big. I tried reforming it for a closer fit with limited success. The main thing I wanted to do was to bring it within a range that I could seal upon closure. I kept doing very fine trimming until I had a fit that no longer scuffed the fuselage skin upon closure. Then I used the soft white rubber "P" strip for a seal. I glued mine to the underside of the skirt set back from the edge enough to conceal the rubber, provide a seal and prevent abrasion of the the fuselage skin by metal to metal contact. This has worked very well in actual operation for around 160 hours.
I had been made sensitive to the draft prone nature of the sliding canopy design by Ken Scott many years ago so I really focused on making sure mine was air tight during the build. I'm going to tell you what I did in each area and you can evolve your own solutions or fly only in nice weather most of the time which is a solution also.
The center canopy rail track hole in the rear skirts - I made a loose fitting hat for the skirt hole over the rail and a plug to slide on the rail that seals the hole upon closure as I am told Tracy Saylor did (I have never seen his design). I had a lot of things to learn to evolve this system into a reliable operating closure seal. My plug is laminated balsa wood covered with fiberglass with sealing rubber in a central band around the plug. The plug is pushed back by the plastic block that guides the canopy upon opening. The Plug is pulled into the closure position by four individually tied waxed nylon wire bundle lacing tape (flat nylon string with a waxy impregnation - available from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty) and there is piece of clear plastic tubing on the pairs of strings (two from each side of the plug) to keep them from dropping into the gap where the skin is cut and bent down under the rail and wearing and breaking. Two eye hooks are made from very fine safety wire (.020"?) for tying the pull strings to the plug. These eye hooks need mechanical security so they are pushed through the plug then a "U" is formed and the wire is pulled to embed the bent back hooks into the block. I actually formed the "eyes" with needle nose pliers after the pull wires were anchored in the block. With the canopy off and inverted, and the strings tied to the plug hooks and routed through the plastic tubing,I layed the plug in the hat where I wanted it to rest at closure and tied the pull strings to the canopy plastic guide block attach bolt. The canopy is more difficult to install because I now have to get the plastic block on the rail and then get the plug on the rail before I can install the frame on the side roller plugs. Once the canopy is in place I had to add a small silicon drag bump at the rear of the rail (I put it on the last screw head) to allow the plug to pass if pushed but keep it from flying off the rail during normal opening.
Front end sealing - I glued a continuous piece of the soft white rubber "P" strip between the roll bar and the fiberglass that extends back from the windscreen over the slider. This simple seal fit and works perfectly.
Side sealing back to the end of the roller guide extrusions - There are on continuous straight line mating surfaces between the side canopy skirt and the fuselage through the full range of opening and closing travel of the canopy. I observed that the extrusion's outer curved surfaces are perfectly straight and aligned with the canopy motion throughout the full opening and closing travel. What was needed was a mating surface on the canopy. I made a rib out of 3/16" aluminum bar stock to conform the the side skirt contour (I used the fuselage contour outboard of the final position of the extrusion in making the patterns) on the outside leaving the natural straight edge of the bar stock aligned with the maximum radius of the outer each of extrusion. Using the normal techniques for aligning the ribs with the maximum outward extension of the extrusion outer radius I double flush riveted them in place on the inner surface of the canopy skirt. I then used the patterns for the ribs to cut over wide ribs out of sheet rubber for a seal. These are glued to the underside of the aluminum ribs which places them in alignment with the curved extrusion surface just a little below the maximum extension point of that extrusion curve so any attempt to force air into the canopy at this point forces the rubber tighter against the extrusion.
Sealing the area between the side roller extrusion and the upper aft Fuselage Skin - The drawings show this skirt skag hanging down over the side of the fuselage to cover this hole. I reasoned that an extension up from the fuselage behind the skirt would achieve the same thing. I cut a piece of 1/16" aluminum angle for each side that extends from the aft end of the extrusion to inside the upper aft fuselage skin on top of the longeron and riveted them to the longerons and the skin. This area is a fairly tight fit with insuficient room for a rubber seal so I coated the fuselage side of the interface to prevent sticking and applied silicon ruber RTV to the mating canopy skirt area and closed the canopy to achieve a formed fit.
The canopy is snug and the small gaps that occur between the rear skirts and the fuselage are not only not a problem some is necessary to prevent scuffing the skin/paint and assure a seal.
Bob Axsom
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Bob,
Interesting ideas. Do you have any pictures?
Thanks,
Mark
Interesting ideas. Do you have any pictures?
Thanks,
Mark
Yes I do - Rear skirt
I made up a power point file some time ago on part of this part of the airplane which clarifies the least intuitive change "the rib" I could e-mail that to you perhaps. What I will do is insert some photos relative to the different mods in a series of replies to this thread.
Bob Axsom
This is the rear skirt:
I made up a power point file some time ago on part of this part of the airplane which clarifies the least intuitive change "the rib" I could e-mail that to you perhaps. What I will do is insert some photos relative to the different mods in a series of replies to this thread.
Bob Axsom
This is the rear skirt:
Hat & Plug
These photos show the center rail hat and the plug. These were taken early in the development before I learned a few refinement lessons like the need for fiberglass outer layer, individually tied strings, the plastic tubing and mechanically anchored eye hooks.
Bob Axsom
These photos show the center rail hat and the plug. These were taken early in the development before I learned a few refinement lessons like the need for fiberglass outer layer, individually tied strings, the plastic tubing and mechanically anchored eye hooks.
Bob Axsom
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The Rib Final
I will attach two photos of the side of the canopy in its final form one looking up at the rib from below with the canopy open which shows the rubber seal glued to the bottom surface of the rib (note - this is extremely important - the seal is on the edge of the rubber against the roller guide extrusion NOT against the canopy sill as implied in the RVator - it is far above the sill) and one with the canopy closed.
Bob Axsom
I will attach two photos of the side of the canopy in its final form one looking up at the rib from below with the canopy open which shows the rubber seal glued to the bottom surface of the rib (note - this is extremely important - the seal is on the edge of the rubber against the roller guide extrusion NOT against the canopy sill as implied in the RVator - it is far above the sill) and one with the canopy closed.
Bob Axsom
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Thanks, Bob
Thank you for posting the pictures, Bob. I like your ideas. You have a very nice looking plane.
Mark
Thank you for posting the pictures, Bob. I like your ideas. You have a very nice looking plane.
Mark
petehowell
Well Known Member
Nice 6A, Bob
Question:
On the roller extension seal, how is the crescent shaped cutout attached to the canopy?
Question:
On the roller extension seal, how is the crescent shaped cutout attached to the canopy?
I have to be careful here
I have to be very careful to make sure we are talking about the same piece. The rib is actually flat in the side adjacent to the roller guide extrusion. Now that I riveted to the canopy skirt in as perfect alignment as I could get with the line formed by the maximum outward extension of the curved extrusion surface (about 1/2" above the canopy sill). The drilling must be done very carefully of course because the bar stock is only 3/16" high. The procedure was to draw a line on the skirt the length of the rib/roller guide extrusion about 1/2" above the longeron/canopy sill determine where you want to position your rivets mark them and drill the holes in the skirt only (I think I used an .040" drill for AN426A3 rivets). Then I drew a centerline with a blue Sharpie on the edge of the rib that would be butting up against the canopy skirt and clamped it with C-clamps to the skirt in proper for & aft position with the blue centerline showing through the holes in the skirt. Then I used the holes in the skirt as a drill guide for drilling through the rib - clecoing every hole as I went to lock the alignment. When this was finished I disassembled the ribs from the skirts, and deburred the holes. Then I dimpled the holes in the skirts and countersunk both the entry and exit surfaces for every mounting hole on the rib. Next I clecoed everything back together and inserted a rivet in the first mounting hole with the manufacturing head on the outside of the skirt so that it extended through the rib. Long ago I bought a rivet cutting tool and a lot of long rivets from Aircraft Spruce instead of being held up everytime I didn't have the right length rivet. The rivet should be long enough to form a flat shop head in the inner countersunk hole surface. Then I squeezed the rivet so that both heads are flush (double flush). From there I just steped and repeated the process untill all of the holes were riveted.
I think that is the installation you are asking about but if not, just give me some more details and I will explain. I have a Power Point file on this so if you would like a copy just give me you e-mail address and I will send it.
Bob Axsom
I have to be very careful to make sure we are talking about the same piece. The rib is actually flat in the side adjacent to the roller guide extrusion. Now that I riveted to the canopy skirt in as perfect alignment as I could get with the line formed by the maximum outward extension of the curved extrusion surface (about 1/2" above the canopy sill). The drilling must be done very carefully of course because the bar stock is only 3/16" high. The procedure was to draw a line on the skirt the length of the rib/roller guide extrusion about 1/2" above the longeron/canopy sill determine where you want to position your rivets mark them and drill the holes in the skirt only (I think I used an .040" drill for AN426A3 rivets). Then I drew a centerline with a blue Sharpie on the edge of the rib that would be butting up against the canopy skirt and clamped it with C-clamps to the skirt in proper for & aft position with the blue centerline showing through the holes in the skirt. Then I used the holes in the skirt as a drill guide for drilling through the rib - clecoing every hole as I went to lock the alignment. When this was finished I disassembled the ribs from the skirts, and deburred the holes. Then I dimpled the holes in the skirts and countersunk both the entry and exit surfaces for every mounting hole on the rib. Next I clecoed everything back together and inserted a rivet in the first mounting hole with the manufacturing head on the outside of the skirt so that it extended through the rib. Long ago I bought a rivet cutting tool and a lot of long rivets from Aircraft Spruce instead of being held up everytime I didn't have the right length rivet. The rivet should be long enough to form a flat shop head in the inner countersunk hole surface. Then I squeezed the rivet so that both heads are flush (double flush). From there I just steped and repeated the process untill all of the holes were riveted.
I think that is the installation you are asking about but if not, just give me some more details and I will explain. I have a Power Point file on this so if you would like a copy just give me you e-mail address and I will send it.
Bob Axsom
petehowell
Well Known Member
robjohnson
Well Known Member
If you don't have Power Point
I've sent out 5 copies of the Power point File on sealing the canopy side skirts. If you don't have Power Point Software and want a copy of my file on the canopy sealing rib etc., let me konw and I will print it and mail it to you at my cost so long as it doesn't get way out of hand.
Bob Axsom
I've sent out 5 copies of the Power point File on sealing the canopy side skirts. If you don't have Power Point Software and want a copy of my file on the canopy sealing rib etc., let me konw and I will print it and mail it to you at my cost so long as it doesn't get way out of hand.
Bob Axsom
Stan Bahrns
Active Member
rear canopy skirts
find someone with an english wheel & spend lots of time taking them off & on . Stan
find someone with an english wheel & spend lots of time taking them off & on . Stan
Rear Skirts
Wanted to give an update on this since I did start this thread. This weekend I glassed the rear skirts all in one piece and I gotta tell you it came out really nice. I don't know why I was hesitant in doing fiberglass work. I used four layers of bid cloth and now just finishing up on filling with Glass bubbles. This was all new to me but I quickly become proficient and learned from mistakes. Thanks everyone for the input (More than I needed at this time but will mark it for future reference) I appreciate it. If you want to see pictures, see my site below.
Wanted to give an update on this since I did start this thread. This weekend I glassed the rear skirts all in one piece and I gotta tell you it came out really nice. I don't know why I was hesitant in doing fiberglass work. I used four layers of bid cloth and now just finishing up on filling with Glass bubbles. This was all new to me but I quickly become proficient and learned from mistakes. Thanks everyone for the input (More than I needed at this time but will mark it for future reference) I appreciate it. If you want to see pictures, see my site below.
Bob, If you still have the PPS file on fitting your canopy aft skirts please send me a copy.
Jim Thorne. [email protected]
Jim Thorne. [email protected]
Hi Bob,
If you still have a copy of your canopy power point slides can you please email me a copy.
[email protected]
Thanks,
Darren
If you still have a copy of your canopy power point slides can you please email me a copy.
[email protected]
Thanks,
Darren
LifeofReiley
Well Known Member
Most of this gapping problem can be solved by doing away the the rear skirt overlapping the side skirt. Use the Rocket method... roll & twist your skirts to fit both side and rear the splice the connection of the rear and side skirts. It's very strong, looks a lot better, fits a lot better and takes 1/6th of the time to fit up right... or should I say you can actually make it fit right with the parts out of the box.
Oh the rear skirts ...
For those block the canopy from fully closing and install the rear skirts with clecoes such that there is interference with the aft fuselage skin. Then gradually and carefully trim for a fit that just allows closure of the canopy. This is a custom job and it can be done beautifully if you approach it correctly. The seal back there can be accomplished with White soft "P" strip from Aircraft Spruce set back from the edge a ways so it doesn't show but seals before metal to metal contact.
Bob Axsom
For those block the canopy from fully closing and install the rear skirts with clecoes such that there is interference with the aft fuselage skin. Then gradually and carefully trim for a fit that just allows closure of the canopy. This is a custom job and it can be done beautifully if you approach it correctly. The seal back there can be accomplished with White soft "P" strip from Aircraft Spruce set back from the edge a ways so it doesn't show but seals before metal to metal contact.
Bob Axsom
