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Prop not cycling

mcattell

Well Known Member
I have an Aero Sport IO-320-D1A with the standard MT governor and Whirl Wind 200RV prop. During first engine start I was unable to get prop to cycle. Initially I only went to 1700 RPM. I've now taken it up to over 2000 RPM for over a minute and still unable to get it to cycle. I've tried leaving it out for a while then cycling the prop back and forth with no results. I've also spoken to all three companies for any ideas. The higher RPM is the only suggestion at this point. The engine came with a plastic cap over the crank opening which was of course was removed to get the prop on. The next step is to pull the governor to see if I can spot any problems. The prop control lever does run the governor from stop to stop. Has anyone else had a similar problem with this combination or have any ideas. I don't want to keep running the engine on the ground since I haven't done the first flight yet and flown it to seat the rings.
 
You said that the engine came with a plastic cap on the crankshaft. Upon removal did you confirm that there was NO front plug in the crank and that the "rear" plug is intact?
Often engines are shipped with the front plug in place to prevent oil drips and must be removed before operation.
 
Mel - I could see into the end of the crank so I'm assuming the front plug was removed. If I left the plastic cap off prior to installing the prop residual oil would drip out. I'm told by Aero Sport that it was shipped with the front plug out and the rear plug installed, plus it was tested that way, with a governor. Unfortunately, the engine, governor and prop I have came from different vendors and were never tested together previously.

Someone mentioned a metal plate between the governor and engine but I understand that only applies to dual mags (in same hole). I have single mag set-up.
 
more plastic plugs?

Mel - I could see into the end of the crank so I'm assuming the front plug was removed. If I left the plastic cap off prior to installing the prop residual oil would drip out. I'm told by Aero Sport that it was shipped with the front plug out and the rear plug installed, plus it was tested that way, with a governor. Unfortunately, the engine, governor and prop I have came from different vendors and were never tested together previously.

Someone mentioned a metal plate between the governor and engine but I understand that only applies to dual mags (in same hole). I have single mag set-up.

There could have been a plastic plug in the propeller hub. At least in Hartzell's and MT propellers. This has been left in before.

There can be little "cap" plugs in the ports on the MT governor. These have been left in before.

Jim Ayers
 
Anybody know how much oil is in the prop/gov assembly???

When first running with a newly installed prop, how much should the oil level drop???

Thanks,
 
Mike,

I just did this. I pulled an old Hartzell and replaced it with a new BA. I had to add a little over a half quart of oil to bring it up to its previous level. I notice the same drop after an oil change (after an engine run and cycling the prop), so I just assume the prop holds about 1/2 to 3/4 of a quart.
 
MT Governor Port

I pulled the MT P-860-4 governor to make sure there wasn't any hidden issues that could keep the prop from cycling. I noticed that one of the internal ports has a plug installed. Can someone tell me if the plug is installed in the correct port in this photo? I'm assuming the plugged port is based on direction of rotation. This governor is mounted on the rear of the IO-320 so it turns in the clockwise rotation with the prop. I suppose there is the possibility of it being wrong from the factory so I'd like to make sure.

In regards cap in prop, I don't remember but would have thought it would have been obvious and prop wouldn't go over shaft if there was. Pulling the prop will be my last resort option since it's so time consuming.

web.jpg
 
Not sure about the plug, but make sure the gov. is rotated to the correct orientation with regards to the oil ports matching up from the gov. to the engine. On a McCauly gov., I needed to undo the body screws and rotate the back of the govenor to correctly orient the operating lever for my RV 7A. Is it possible you mounted the govenor based on the lever orientation and not the oil port orientation?

Just a thought, this may not be the case with MTs, but different installations require the operating lever be in a different quadrant, requiring the body be rotated and not the mouting flange.

Roberta
 
MT Governor - Plug

I pulled the MT P-860-4 governor to make sure there wasn't any hidden issues that could keep the prop from cycling. I noticed that one of the internal ports has a plug installed. Can someone tell me if the plug is installed in the correct port in this photo? I'm assuming the plugged port is based on direction of rotation. This governor is mounted on the rear of the IO-320 so it turns in the clockwise rotation with the prop. I suppose there is the possibility of it being wrong from the factory so I'd like to make sure.

In regards cap in prop, I don't remember but would have thought it would have been obvious and prop wouldn't go over shaft if there was. Pulling the prop will be my last resort option since it's so time consuming.

web.jpg

The plastic plug needs to be removed from the governor.

The governor is only mounted one way. The lever assembly is rotated to the position you want.
First, cut the safety wire and loosening the six screws on the top of the governor.
Rotated the lever assembly to where you want it.
Tighten the six screws and safety wire screws.

Regards,
Jim Ayers
 
Ports

The plug shown inside the governor is a metal threaded plug. There is a threaded hole on the left and one on the right of the oval chase. I'm assuming the plug must be in one port or the other but not sure which one.

As far as port alignment, there is a lower port that lines up with a hole in the casting on the engine and the upper chase lines up with another port to one side. So I believe the rotation is correct otherwise both ports wouldn't have alignment.
 
It's got to be a bad governor

Today I ran the airplane up to 2100 RPM and left it there for 3 minutes with the prop knob out. That RPM certainly would have got oil up there in that long of time. Okay I think I've eliminated everything now. I very reluctantly pulled the prop and looked in there. Here are a couple photos.

http://gallery.me.com/mdcattell/100034/Prop/web.jpg?ver=12782000160001

http://gallery.me.com/mdcattell/100034/Crank/web.jpg?ver=12781999920001

Let me know if you see anything weird but it looks fine to me. There's no plugs, no rags, no anything that should stop oil from getting up there. I can look back 6" or so into the crank which I assume is normal. I can also look back into the port in the prop. When I unbolted the prop I did get about a half quart of oil out in the drip pan. So we know so oil is getting up there but it must not be enough pressure. Based on that I'm convinced it's the MT governor I got from Van's with the firewall forward kit. It must have been bad right out of the box. So unless anyone has any better ideas that will be my next step.
 
You need to do more homework/testing, I think.

Today I ran the airplane up to 2100 RPM and left it there for 3 minutes with the prop knob out. That RPM certainly would have got oil up there in that long of time. Okay I think I've eliminated everything now. I very reluctantly pulled the prop and looked in there. Here are a couple photos.

http://gallery.me.com/mdcattell/100034/Prop/web.jpg?ver=12782000160001

http://gallery.me.com/mdcattell/100034/Crank/web.jpg?ver=12781999920001

Let me know if you see anything weird but it looks fine to me. There's no plugs, no rags, no anything that should stop oil from getting up there. I can look back 6" or so into the crank which I assume is normal. I can also look back into the port in the prop. When I unbolted the prop I did get about a half quart of oil out in the drip pan. So we know so oil is getting up there but it must not be enough pressure. Based on that I'm convinced it's the MT governor I got from Van's with the firewall forward kit. It must have been bad right out of the box. So unless anyone has any better ideas that will be my next step.
You need to perform/reperform the "Propeller Oil Control Leak Test Procedure" as outlined in Lycoming Service Instruction 1462 or latest edition. The purpose of the air pressure check to the propeller governor system is to determine if the governor oil passages have openings (excessive clearance), leaks or restrictions, or blockages (tight clearance). If you are unable, you can surely find someone who can help you make the adapter for test or ask around on the list for someone who has done this. I think you can use the accessory case governor pad that's put on engines that don't have a governor as the starting point to make your own 1462 tester.

You need to have someone else very experienced rule out that you don't have a gasket or shim or something partially or totally blocking the correct oil channels between the accessory case and the governor. And if after you reinspect and are sure you have it installed right I'd perform the Lycoming Service Instruction 1462.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1462A.pdf

Here's the sacremento sky ranch troubleshooting page on said subject

http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng12.htm

Failure to change pitch or rpm in Lycoming or Continental aircraft engine


1. If rpm fails to decrease during or after takeoff: insufficient counterweight force and/or high friction in the hub parts.
2. If rpm fails to increase but will reduce: low oil pressure.

3. If rpm change in both directions is sluggish: Excessive friction in hub mechanism.

4. Newly-installed governor has wrong direction of rotation, or has bypass plug in wrong hole.

5. Transfer-collar distress on Continental engines will cause sluggish or erratic propeller operation.

6. Internal engine oil leak on Lycoming engines. With Lycoming engines you need to check main bearing clearance and rear plug in center of crankshaft for leaks. Remove propeller governor. There's a passage that goes down to the center of the front main bearing. The big hole indexes to the oil transfer tube which goes to prop governor. Take a differential pressure tester and with a rubber end push against passage. Apply 40 pounds in and as oil blows out of bearing you will see the secondary gauge come down. After 15 or 20 seconds you want to see 5 pounds or more. If the bearings will not hold 5 pounds you have an unacceptable leak. Turn propeller as you do the test. Limits are 5 to 20 psi. This is a quick and easy test to do after engine assembly at overhaul.
 
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The plug shown inside the governor is a metal threaded plug. There is a threaded hole on the left and one on the right of the oval chase. I'm assuming the plug must be in one port or the other but not sure which one.

As far as port alignment, there is a lower port that lines up with a hole in the casting on the engine and the upper chase lines up with another port to one side. So I believe the rotation is correct otherwise both ports wouldn't have alignment.

Your governor is rear mounted so I think the threaded plug (which is the oil pressure gallery) is in the wrong hole for rear gov. engines. Looks to me like the gov. is currently set up for front mounted engines. Check the picture.

29dy6w8.jpg
[/IMG]

Good luck
Graham
RV6 flying
 
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Check Neal's message 7-1-10

I think it is the front crank case plug missing, like it was on mine and others. Check Neal's message this thread on 1 July. You are going thru all the steps we did before figuring out what the problem was. If that engine is newly overhauled, it sounds like the plug in the front case was left out during the case overhaul as if for a fixed pitch prop...not uncommon but it does suck cause the case must come apart!

Or keep on re-inventing the wheel...I did!
 
Thanks for the suggestions. A little background for the previous posts. My engine is a brand new engine from Aero Sport. It was ran for over an hour in their test cell with their governor and prop. I spoke to them last week and they said they wouldn't have opend the case and removed any plugs as it was tested and shipped for constant speed. The test report I have indicates the same. So for now I'll have to trust them on that.

That test proceedure looks pretty involved. Since everything is new there shouldn't be wear on anything. I work a half hour from Van's so I can always drive down there Tuesday and swap out the governor. I spoke to Joe today and he said Mike could take a look at it. It should still be under warranty.

I was tempted to change the plug location in the governor as a test. It shouldn't hurt anything. But then it is under warranty. The test plate photo in the previous post appears to be looking at the back side based on the prop port location. So the plug may be in the correct side.

All very frustrating but I think I really need to try a different governor to either rule that out or fix it. At least it's not too hard to swap. With that said I'm still open to any other suggestions.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. A little background for the previous posts. My engine is a brand new engine from Aero Sport. It was ran for over an hour in their test cell with their governor and prop. I spoke to them last week and they said they wouldn't have opend the case and removed any plugs as it was tested and shipped for constant speed. The test report I have indicates the same. So for now I'll have to trust them on that.

That test proceedure looks pretty involved. Since everything is new there shouldn't be wear on anything. I work a half hour from Van's so I can always drive down there Tuesday and swap out the governor. I spoke to Joe today and he said Mike could take a look at it. It should still be under warranty.

I was tempted to change the plug location in the governor as a test. It shouldn't hurt anything. But then it is under warranty. The test plate photo in the previous post appears to be looking at the back side based on the prop port location. So the plug may be in the correct side.

All very frustrating but I think I really need to try a different governor to either rule that out or fix it. At least it's not too hard to swap. With that said I'm still open to any other suggestions.

Here is another depiction of the oil pressure port relative to the two engines. Your governor picture would have to be rotated 180 degrees horizontally to match the depiction, making the port in the engine covered by the plug in the governor. Maybe that doesn't matter because the governor could still get pressure oil to the opposite (open) hole via the half moon slot machined in the face of the governor couldn't it ?... Something to consider anyway.

2q099h5.jpg
[/IMG]


Cheers
Graham
 
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Prop hub picture?

Today I ran the airplane up to 2100 RPM and left it there for 3 minutes with the prop knob out. That RPM certainly would have got oil up there in that long of time. Okay I think I've eliminated everything now. I very reluctantly pulled the prop and looked in there. Here are a couple photos.

http://gallery.me.com/mdcattell/100034/Prop/web.jpg?ver=12782000160001

(stuff Cut)
Let me know if you see anything weird but it looks fine to me. There's no plugs, no rags, no anything that should stop oil from getting up there. I can look back 6" or so into the crank which I assume is normal. I can also look back into the port in the prop. When I unbolted the prop I did get about a half quart of oil out in the drip pan. So we know so oil is getting up there but it must not be enough pressure. Based on that I'm convinced it's the MT governor I got from Van's with the firewall forward kit. It must have been bad right out of the box. So unless anyone has any better ideas that will be my next step.

I can't tell for certain from you picture of the propeller, but it looks to me that you have a plactic plug pushed into the cavity in the rear of the propeller hub.

On a MT Propeller, I expect to see a row of holes around the center hole. The center hole would have a guide shaft from the piston. The row of holes around the center hole allow the oil into the piston.

I believe Whirlwind has their copy of the McCullogh (sp?) hub similar to MT Propeller.

Regards,
Jim Ayers
 
My MT prop came with a plastic plug in it, tucked up inside the cavity ------- when I removed it, I could see the oil holes mentioned above.

BTW, the book does not mention removing this plug.........at least mine did not.
 
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Thanks. I'll check the Whirlwind prop again today as it's still off. I can see down into the small hole (about 3/8" diameter) in the center to the end which is about 6". As you can see the photo the rest of the area is just a metal recess with an o-ring. I don't know where else a platic plug could be. Whirlwind told me they ship it with a big one in the end which I'm assuming I took off to get the prop on.
 
Engine has to go back

You guys were exactly right. I couldn't imagine that a brand new engine shipped for CS operation could possibly be the problem. Unfortunately after exhaustive testing of everything else including the governor and the prop, the conclusion is that it's the engine. Most likely the plug is missing which should have been installed in the left side of the case during assembly per ECI Bulletin 04-4. I can pump air into the oil line feeding the prop and it drains out as fast as it goes it. With the dipstick removed it comes out there. I've been asked to remove the new engine and ship it back to the factory. So much for the first flight I had scheduled for this Saturday. The engine runs fine otherwise and if I had a spare fixed pitch prop lying around I could fly it like that. Typical for the build process; one step forward and two steps back. Thanks for everyone's help to solve this issue.
 
Ouch!

Mark,
That blows! At least it is covered by the manufacturer, but as you said it should have never been an issue if you ordered it as a C/S.

I've been dealing with issues getting my used IO-360-A1A converted to C/S and it's been a major pain with all the little gotchas!
 
Very Interesting.....

It was ran for over an hour in their test cell with their governor and prop. I spoke to them last week and they said they wouldn't have opened the case and removed any plugs as it was tested and shipped for constant speed.

How this could happen! Methinks someone took a short-cut somewhere. Was it really test run with a C/S prop?
 
Mel - I was mistaken about being test run with a CS prop. It was test run with a fixed pitch prop and a temp plug in the front. Some sort of bleed down pressure test was supposed to be done with a plate over the governor hole. Perhaps the test indicated earlier in this post. I think the test report indicated something like 12/40 under the governor column, whatever that means. Since the engine runs fine otherwise with good engine and governor oil pressure the assumtion would be as indicated. Now I just need to move on and get it fixed. Not looking forward to the task ahead. I guess I could always leave it as is and trade my new 200RV prop for a fixed pitch one plus lots of cash and leave it as is. I'd have to think about that one hard though. Perhaps my first flight will be in August.
 
same prop/gov/missing plug issue??

I have a nearly identical set-up as Mark (who is a good friend of mine) - same plane, same engine, same engine builder (but not an ECI version - mine has roller tappets), exactly the same prop, and I have a Jihostroj gov that I bought with the prop on a group buy. I am nowhere near my first flight, but after helping Mark troubleshoot his issues, I figured I had better test my engine to be sure I didn't have the same problem. I'd rather know now that I have an issue than later!

I'm really not close to a first engine start yet, so I temporarily installed the prop. I connected the air where I disconnected the prop oil line at the gov fitting. I slowly applied air, and guess what? The prop blades don't move and I have air coming out of the engine dipstick tube. I'm thinking this is NOT GOOD!

I'm not going to freak out quite yet, but my first thought is that I have the same issue as Mark, even though my engine is 2 years old than his. My engine is still a zero time, brand new engine. I just ordered and received it almost 2 years ago. Since my engine has roller tappets, I believe that means I have a Lycoming case. And I've heard that Lycoming engines don't have the "plug" that we're assuming is missing from Mark's engine. But now I'm looking for comments/suggestions regarding this issue. Is it possible the air is simply blowing by the bearings because they're relatively dry? And when the engine is truly started, the oil pressure will eliminate this problem? I can't imagine oil pressure is going to resolve this problem, but I'm open to any suggestions or experience you may have.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Brief update: When I apply about 30 psi air pressure and air comes out the oil dipstick tube, the prop blades move about a 1/2 deg. or so, then return when the air pressure is stopped.
 
OK, I may have cried before I was really hurt. When I put about 45 psi pressure on it, the prop does fully defect (I can hear it softly hit the stops when the pressure is applied). When I relieve the pressure (which takes about 3 seconds to drop to zero pressure from 45 psi), the prop returns to its normal (take-off) position. Mark cannot pressurize his prop at all, whether with air or engine oil (when the engine is running), and we know his prop gov is putting out 400 psi (dead headed), because we tested it.

The only minor concern I still have is it seems like a lot of air leaking out the dipstick tube when I have pressure on it. But maybe that will be reduced when I'm using oil (when the engine is running) instead of air.

So for now, I guess I'm feeling better about the whole thing. I just wish we could figure out what's wrong with Mark's plane,too, without having to send the engine out. Because he's ready to fly it other than his prop cycling issue!
 
Have you tried a different governor?

Try swapping the governor to a PCU5000x or the Jihostroj equiv. that Whirlwind recommends. That MT governor is not what Whirlwind uses. A Whirlwind 200 RV requires uniquely high pressures. On the Jihostroj website they have a chart for specific engine/prop combinations. Make SURE you have the right model or it will not cycle. My 2 cents.
 
I've spoken with Whirl Wind about the governor. They indicate that the MT governor is just fine. They said 200RV only requires 120 lbs oil pressure at the most. When the prop shop bench tested the prop it got full deflection at only 40 psi air pressure. A pressure gauge placed on the MT governor with th engine running indicated well over 300 lb. I've pretty much ruled out everything else and done all the checks the engine builder asked me to do. They've asked for the engine back and I've got everthing disconnected now so I can pull it off in the next few days and ship it back. Bummer.
 
Update: Engine Repaired

After spending weeks trying to figure out why the CS prop wouldn't cycle and sending the new engine back to Aero Sport, the mystery is solved. I'm told that the material in the right hand side of the crankcase near the oil pressure fitting was very thin and broke through allowing oil to bypass. Most likely the high pressure oil from the governor did it right away. So the conclusion was that the new case from ECI had a manufacturing flaw. The case was replaced with a new one and shipped back to me. I've remounted the engine and ran it yesterday. It now works as it should. My first flight should have been a month ago but will now be within the next week. Thanks for all the previous suggestions but I've sure no one would have guessed this would have been the problem. On the bright side, I've learned a lot more about my engine.
 
Wow!

Thanks for the update. Pretty scary that such a casting defect would clear QC and end up in an engine though. What if this had happened later? What if the flaw was somewhere else in the engine? what if what if what if???

Congrats on getting finished, hope first flight is uneventful.
 
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