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  #1  
Old 05-20-2022, 08:26 AM
Murf202 Murf202 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Canton
Posts: 12
Default GNS430 Supplemental Letter

I have an instructor teaching me IFR in my RV6A. (yes we have the LODA) He is asking if i have a supplemental letter for the GNS430 to fly IFR approaches. Is one required or needed? How or can I get one for my records. thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 05-20-2022, 08:37 AM
Untainted123 Untainted123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Azle, TX
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Are you referring to the Garmin LBA Approved Flight Manual Supplement for aircraft without an approved flight manual?

If it's that document, you would take that sample document, update anything necessary for your particular installation, print it out, and put it in the airplane. I would guess most (none?) of us have ever actually done that, but then again most of us don't do primary training or check rides in our RV's (a few do and have).
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  #3  
Old 05-20-2022, 09:01 AM
Murf202 Murf202 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2017
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Default Thanks

Thanks, I believe this is what I was looking for!
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2022, 11:13 AM
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n82rb n82rb is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: fort myers fl
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it is not required for a non-type certificated aircraft. the supplemental manual is required for a type certificated aircraft by the STC that it is installed under, not the certification of the unit.

from AC 20-138, which has been canceled, but stated:

Flight Manual Supplement: An appropriate Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual
Supplement (or, for aircraft without an FAA Approved Flight Manual, a Supplemental Flight Manual)
containing the limitations and operating procedures applicable to the equipment installed should be
provided for each installation of GPS navigation equipment for IFR approval.

note, should be, not shall.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
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  #5  
Old 05-21-2022, 02:16 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
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Good grief! The reference in post 2 is Ďapprovedí by the German government, not the FAA!
92.205 requires you to use an Ďapprovedí gps for ifr operations, and your op limits require you to follow 91.205 for ifr. Is the supplemental manual part of that approval? I donít know, but one came with the 420 and it was easy enough to stuff it into the seat back pocket.
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2022, 04:56 PM
Untainted123 Untainted123 is offline
 
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Location: Azle, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Good grief! The reference in post 2 is Ďapprovedí by the German government, not the FAA!
92.205 requires you to use an Ďapprovedí gps for ifr operations, and your op limits require you to follow 91.205 for ifr. Is the supplemental manual part of that approval? I donít know, but one came with the 420 and it was easy enough to stuff it into the seat back pocket.
Bob, you are correct, the link I posted was the top google result, but that supplement exists in many forms, approved by whatever government/oversight of aviation in the country your plane is registered in. Here's the same thing, but approved by the FAA.

This is all my understanding, and could definitely be wrong (I had to dive into some of this stuff several years ago looking into an upgrade for my Warrior from a KLN89b):
Basically, to install an IFR GPS into a certified airframe, you need to complete an STC, and part of that STC requires going through the checklist for interference of systems, com's checks, etc.

The normal airplane POH/AFM also needs to be updated with the operations of the GPS. Instead of coming up with all of that, Garmin provides that basic document you can find variations of online in google, or from Garmin directly. You either take it as is, and fill in your airframe SN/GPS combo etc, or you make subtle changes to it (some people take it and remove the requirement for a current database and instead say something like "waypoints are verified for correct lat/long in the database", which gets around having to have a technically current db in the device).

All of that (the confirmation of the install being interference free, the supplement to the AFM etc) is then compiled into the STC application, signed by various responsible, and sent to the FAA for approval. If you used the Garmin example supplement, it's basically rubber stamped, dated and signed, and entered into the airplane record in OKC. You get back a signed, FAA approved copy of the STC, including the AFM supplement, which you then print and throw in the back of the airplane never to be seen again.

I don't think any of that required for our airplanes, being experimental and all, since the POH/AFM is not approved as part of the type certificate.

As to OP, I don't know why your CFII would know or care about the AFM supplement for the Garmin, except as something your DPE might quiz you on, and that you should be familiar with if flying a certified airplane (I believe it should be in the plane based on the same regulation for ARROW, since the Garmin AFM supplement is technically part of the POH after the STC is approved, so if you didn't have it, you aren't technically legal, but I don't know for sure)
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  #7  
Old 05-21-2022, 06:53 PM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
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Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untainted123 View Post
Bob, you are correct, the link I posted was the top google result, but that supplement exists in many forms, approved by whatever government/oversight of aviation in the country your plane is registered in. Here's the same thing, but approved by the FAA.

This is all my understanding, and could definitely be wrong (I had to dive into some of this stuff several years ago looking into an upgrade for my Warrior from a KLN89b):
Basically, to install an IFR GPS into a certified airframe, you need to complete an STC, and part of that STC requires going through the checklist for interference of systems, com's checks, etc.

The normal airplane POH/AFM also needs to be updated with the operations of the GPS. Instead of coming up with all of that, Garmin provides that basic document you can find variations of online in google, or from Garmin directly. You either take it as is, and fill in your airframe SN/GPS combo etc, or you make subtle changes to it (some people take it and remove the requirement for a current database and instead say something like "waypoints are verified for correct lat/long in the database", which gets around having to have a technically current db in the device).

All of that (the confirmation of the install being interference free, the supplement to the AFM etc) is then compiled into the STC application, signed by various responsible, and sent to the FAA for approval. If you used the Garmin example supplement, it's basically rubber stamped, dated and signed, and entered into the airplane record in OKC. You get back a signed, FAA approved copy of the STC, including the AFM supplement, which you then print and throw in the back of the airplane never to be seen again.

I don't think any of that required for our airplanes, being experimental and all, since the POH/AFM is not approved as part of the type certificate.

As to OP, I don't know why your CFII would know or care about the AFM supplement for the Garmin, except as something your DPE might quiz you on, and that you should be familiar with if flying a certified airplane (I believe it should be in the plane based on the same regulation for ARROW, since the Garmin AFM supplement is technically part of the POH after the STC is approved, so if you didn't have it, you aren't technically legal, but I don't know for sure)
I’ve done my share of STC installs as both an IA and certified repair station, the only document that gets sent to FAA is the 337, and they don’t send or approve anything back, that’s just a record keeping exercise . The STC is the approval and it has already been officially blessed by FAA.
To the best of my knowledge there are no changes allowed to any of the STC documents, which includes the AFM supplement.

And none of this is required for EAB aircraft so time to educate the CFI in question.
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EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
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Last edited by Walt : 05-21-2022 at 07:05 PM.
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  #8  
Old 05-21-2022, 08:09 PM
Untainted123 Untainted123 is offline
 
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Location: Azle, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
Iíve done my share of STC installs as both an IA and certified repair station, the only document that gets sent to FAA is the 337, and they donít send or approve anything back, thatís just a record keeping exercise . The STC is the approval and it has already been officially blessed by FAA.
To the best of my knowledge there are no changes allowed to any of the STC documents, which includes the AFM supplement.

And none of this is required for EAB aircraft so time to educate the CFI in question.
Walt, sorry, I think I used the term STC but in my brain it was 337 that I was thinking of, you are correct.

As you say, none of this applies to our EAB aircraft, and the only reason I can think of a CFII being concerned about it is just getting into the weeds about anything that might come up on a checkride somehow, or a "here's some neat esoteric knowledge that you can recite at parties that are dull". Otherwise, if the CFII is only familiar with the certified world, then this whole AFM conversation probably comes up a lot more.

At any rate, I finally found where I remember reading about all this. You can read the article, but essentially this person wanted to upgrade their KLN89b to a KLN94 in a certified airplane. To do so, it wasn't enough to simply slide a KLN94 into the tray, he also had to go about getting the AFM approved via a 337 process (mind you this was in 2014).

I quote from there:
Quote:
Changing the AFMS

Fortunately, the AFMS can be changed, or a completely new one can be created, but it is a nontrivial job because under FAA (and to some degree similar EASA) rules, changing an AFMS is a Major Alteration. In FAA-land this is done with a Form 337 supported by Approved Data.

In this case, the lack of an aircraft-specific STC (the KLN94 STC is for a Beech Baron) meant that this had to be done as a Field Approval i.e. a Form 337, with some supporting documents, which has to be FAA approved (signed). In the case of a "field approval" one submits any data which the FAA finds acceptable and when the FAA inspector signs block 5 on the 337, that makes the data "approved data" for that installation.

The AFMS is custom written for the particular aircraft and is specific to its registration number.

Generally, a specimen text of the supplement is provided in the back of the installation manual for the particular GPS and this is used as the template for the new AFMS. The KLN94 version is [there]. The installation manuals are not in general circulation and only authorised dealers are supposed to have them, but they are easy enough to find on the internet. I have a huge collection of them myself

Assuming the GPS installation was done correctly, nothing physical on the aircraft changes; all this is purely paperwork!"
I poorly summarized the process and reasoning, but if you check out that article, even for entertainment purposes, that is what I trying to describe, and was the only thing I could even think of that your CFII might be referring to.
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  #9  
Old 05-22-2022, 08:51 AM
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jcarne jcarne is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untainted123 View Post
As you say, none of this applies to our EAB aircraft, and the only reason I can think of a CFII being concerned about it is just getting into the weeds about anything that might come up on a checkride somehow
Anyone know of a way this could come to fruition on a checkride? In other words, how could I prove that it's not required in EAB.
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  #10  
Old 05-22-2022, 10:37 AM
Murf202 Murf202 is offline
 
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Thanks Jereme! I believe you asked the question the way my CFII intended. How can I prove that its not required in a EAB. Is it even worth trying. Should I print out the GARMIN LBA and hope that works? It would be nice to have something to refer to if a DPE asked the question. I'm sure if I said "because that's what i was told" wouldn't impress him much.
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