What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Primer colored RV(?) -9A debacle at LOE

Status
Not open for further replies.
hecilopter

hecilopter

Well Known Member
I couldn't believe my eyes looking at this attempted impression of an airplane. If you saw it, you know which one I'm talking about. It was not actually an airplane because it had no N number or data plate. Someone actually flew this thing in (and out).

All kinds of missing fasteners, invalid nav lights (there were amber and red lights on both wings - like a Mack truck), fuel stains, improper control attachments, burn residue, etc., etc. Who knows what the firewall forward looked like as it was concealed by the overlapping, oversized cowling.

I feel like this is one of those times where I saw it and didn't say something and we will wind up reading about this guy in the NTSB reports. Since this was not even close to a legal flying aircraft, I feel he needs to be identified and the plane grounded before he hurts himself and/or someone else on the ground. Definitely not the impression we want to leave for the non flying public to attend a fly in and see something like that.

Had the FAA been in attendance, the airplane would have been grounded on the spot.

For safety sake, I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. :mad: Rant off.
 
Last edited:
I saw it and believe I got some video as it departed just underneath the formation flight on Saturday. I will try to get to the video and see if I can post it. My first thought when I saw it was that it was a plane local to KOJA. However, when it flew out I guess that proved my initial thought to be wrong.

[ed. I would suggest forwarding the videos to the FAA instead of posting them here. They can actually do something (we can't). dr]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lots of us saw the airplane (I only saw it as it took off), lots of us talked about it....but I have yet to hear anyone that says that they talked to the pilot/owner. I'm curious if anyone at LOE actually DID find out anything - the photos won't help much - as was mentioned, no registration marks of any kind....

Paul
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I was trying to figure out a way to beat this bush as well. We missed our chance to inspect it. I noticed it out of the corner of my eye as we walked the line, and I guess my brain intrinsically pointed me in the opposite direction. He had left before we could get back over there to see what everybody was talking about. Tanya took the pictures that we have of it as it taxied out and took off. Look at them... There are some real eye opener items even from afar with a 200mm lens.

To the owner: Please don't bring this airplane, or any others that you may have squirrled away, to an event that I'm at. You are directly endangering my hobby and passion in so many ways.
 
scard said:
To the owner: Please don't bring this airplane, or any others that you may have squirrled away, to an event that I'm at. You are directly endangering my hobby and passion in so many ways.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of when someone tries any funny-business on an airliner these days-- inevitably 100 passengers will trample them to death in the aisle and ask questions later! If this thing ever shows up at an event again, maybe an intervention is in order to protect the lives of the innocent & liberty of responsible law-abiding experimental (custom) aircraft builders.

I wasn't there, and can't say what I'd have done if I had been there, but it shouldn't have flown away. Call the feds, slash the tires... :eek: do something! Don't tell me you can't find a Fed in Oklahoma! If he's flying something to a show with no N-number & no data plate, he probably has no pilot's license or medical either! Just a busted TFR away from making us all look like irresponsible idiots on the evening news!
 
KatieB said:
Call the feds, slash the tires... :eek: do something!
Click to expand...



Talk to him, sure, let him know that he is not invited to this gathering, ok. But slashing his tires would be going waaaay too far.

Unless he is showing signs of physical impairment i.e. drunk or loaded on drugs. To physically try to stop him is not anybody?s right or responsibility.

The only thing you can do is call the FAA and have them deal with it.
He has rights as well, whether or not you agree with his decisions or that it may embarrass our hobby
 
FresnoR said:
snip....The only thing you can do is call the FAA and have them deal with it. ....snip
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. Send the pics and videos to them if you have them. They can take action if they can find him. Proper channels....
 
hecilopter said:
All kinds of missing fasteners, invalid nav lights (there were amber and red lights on both wings - like a Mack truck), fuel stains, improper control attachments, burn residue, etc., etc. Who knows what the firewall forward looked like as it was concealed by the overlapping, oversized cowling.
Click to expand...


so other than showing a general attitude of poor building, how many of the things you saw were actual safety concerns?

fuel stains, not a safety concern i don't think unless you saw actual fuel running or rapid dripping.

lights, it was daytime right? aren't daytime vfr planes not required to have any lights at all? is there a prohibition against "improper" lights?

what fasteners were missing?

how were the connections wrong?

i really don't know what a "burn residue" is. there was a fire at some point? or is this referring to funky exhaust stain?

edit- adding: no n number or data plate obvious violation of fars, but not a safety issue. tax/ rule enforcement issue
 
As far as I know, the owner of this monstrosity was never found. He may have been lingering in the crowd watching us all shake our heads and make comments. He did fire up and taxi out while most of the crowd was out on the flightline watching the formation show. He took off right under a formation pass. I'd be real curious to know if he used an N# on the unicom freq.

I did vet some pics of the more egregious parts of the plane and of him as he taxied out. I wish I had been around the airplane when he came back to it.

I disagree strongly that none of us has a right to intervene in something like this. If he were drunk and about to start his plane, would you try to stop him, or just report it to the feds?
 
Without pictures, this thread is meaningless to those of us not in attendance. If there were indeed safety concerns regarding this aircraft, a couple pictures would be more informative and useful for current builders than an ambiguous rant.

Sorry..... Stepping off my soapbox.
 
A few

You really had to see it to believe it. The rudder counterbalance was chafing against the vertical stab. Elevators were mismatched. Left main was all but flat. Trim was attached with what appeared to be a wooden dowel with a #6 screw thru it attaching to the control horn with a nut. No washers. Flap rods chafing the fuse, rudder cable sawing into fuselage skins because no guide tubes used. I could go on and on. Suffice it to say that not being legal was the least of its problems.
 
I agree with Danny. Maybe it is foolish and poor judgement on the owner's part to fly this thing. But having the Feds show up at next year's event is definately NOT the way to go (and they will!).
 
Pictures

scard said:
Here is my picture dump:
http://picasaweb.google.com/jscottcard/LOE2010#
Click to expand...

are in Scott's album. The plane doesn't look that unsafe from the photos, and yes maybe slashing tires is a bit extreme, but he did fly to a large event with no registration or ID on the plane. That's either complete disregard or complete ignorance of the law, which boils down to a safety risk in itself. A chat with the owner would definitely be first priority before any desperate measures however. :eek:
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the link. As you said, other than the nearly flat left main, it is hard to evaluate the airworthyness of the airplane.

One good thing..... At least he was taxiing with full aft stick....proper technique for us nose draggers. :rolleyes:
 
Danny7 said:
so other than showing a general attitude of poor building, how many of the things you saw were actual safety concerns? ...snip
what fasteners were missing?...snip
Click to expand...

I saw three safety issues within thirty seconds:

1. No jam nuts on the aileron pushrods where they connected to the control surface. I could spin the pushrod (and did).

2. The right wingtip only had about six screws on the top surface, spaced about every five inches. Three of these screws were missing.

3. Ball-of-spaghetti wiring under the throttle touching edges of aluminum.

It should have been grounded and I did ask around for a fed with the authority to do it.
 
Last edited:
I love the comments from those who didn't attend and are attempting to defend this guy.

This pile of garbage was was far from airworthy and undocumented too. It should have been grounded even if it required chaining it to a F150.

FWIW, it departed NE out of KOJA.

Phil
 
I know there's a serious issue here, but the remark about the lights belonging on a Mack truck made me laugh out loud. It's like the builder heard you're supposed to have lights so he ran down to Pep Boys. I'm guessing this "aircraft" belongs to a local and is a long way from being registered, but the builder couldn't resist showing it off. I'd love to see more pics just for the chuckles.
 
painless said:
Ok Jamie, you got me there. Guess I was referring more to physically being airworthy rather than legally. My bad.
Click to expand...

:) Yeah, I know what you meant Jeff, but in a way I think those things kind of go hand-in-hand -- i.e. I would hope that no fed or DAR would issue that thing an airworthiness certificate, which may very well be the reason this guy is flying it around without a registration number. Besides...if the wheelpants are any indication...:eek:

I think we as a community should be swift in denouncing this sort of behavior as unacceptable and not representative of the RV community.
 
Nice

Those matronics pics are great.

It kind of looks like its been flying for a while no?

Whats with the oil door? Nice hartwell latch but...what kind of engine has an oil door at that location......no idea????

Funny stuff...well, not really funny...just kinda funny. :D
 
Phil said:
I love the comments from those who didn't attend and are attempting to defend this guy.
Phil
Click to expand...

Not trying to defend him all. Just trying to be informed as to what the defects were in his airplane so I can make a fair assessment. As I stated earlier, that was not possible without pics, as I indeed, wasn't there.

Where did I say, or imply I was defending him..?? :confused:
 
RickWoodall said:
...what kind of engine has an oil door at that location......no idea????
Click to expand...

It's actually hard to tell where the firewall is and where the cowling should start. The cowling was never trimmed and is draped around the fuselage and held in with screws.

I think location is kinda relative on this one. :)
 
Last edited:
painless said:
Not trying to defend him all. Just trying to be informed as to what the defects were in his airplane so I can make a fair assessment.
Click to expand...

You won't ever see that list because it's easier to tell you what was done right than what was done wrong. Nothing was right.
 
I wish I took pics of it to get motivation on what NOT to do with my -3B... That was worth seeing in my own eyes compared to seeing it in pictures... Wow, just wow!
 
RickWoodall said:
Those matronics pics are great.

It kind of looks like its been flying for a while no?

Whats with the oil door? Nice hartwell latch but...what kind of engine has an oil door at that location......no idea????

Funny stuff...well, not really funny...just kinda funny. :D
Click to expand...

As much as I'd hate for my plane to have anything in common - It probably has an O-320-H2AD like my project. The oil tube is on top of the case, just right of centerline.
 
Last edited:
Sorry I didn't get a pic but I was rather dumb founded when looking at this like most others were, shear disbelief...

I think my favorite "mod" was the fuel filler ports... they were just stuck on from the outside (with glue or a hammer I guess) as there were no fasteners in them... they sat about 1/4" above the wing skin, just took them and jammed in the holes :eek:
 
There was a -6a or -7a at SnF a few years ago that was just as bad, if not worse. It started with a composite prop not suitable for a lycoming engine and went downhill badly from there.

That airplane did have an N number and a listed owner, but it was an accident waiting to happen. As I recall, the airplane was from the Northeast, and it surprised me that actually made it all the way to Lakeland.
 
Pretty sad really. To put in all that work and end up with that is a real shame.
There's no shortage of people (thousands) that would have given the guy a hand had he just asked.
 
hecilopter said:
Who knows what the firewall forward looked like as it was concealed by the overlapping, oversized cowling.
Click to expand...

I don't think the cowling was over-sized. It was just installed overlapping the firewall by several inches. If you noticed the prop was about 3" forward of the spinner back-plate.
Yes, it was an H2AD. It was easy to see the forward mounted fuel pump because there was no visible baffling. The exhaust had turn-downs that crossed and dented so that they "nested" within each other.
 
Mel said:
If you noticed the prop was about 3" forward of the spinner back-plate.
Click to expand...

I think he might have put the rear spinner bulkhead between the prop spacer and crank flange, instead of between the spacer and prop. I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out.
 
Lionclaw said:
I think he might have put the rear spinner bulkhead between the prop spacer and crank flange, instead of between the spacer and prop. I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's what I meant. The spinner back-plate was mounted directly to the crankshaft flange, then the extension was between the back-plate and the prop..
 
I think there should be a new function code to give Mel the authority to ground any RV at any time (other than Tanya's).
 
Well, I guess that it at least shows that Van's design is sufficiently well engineered to withstand a lot of "modifications" and still fly!

I have never seen anything even remotely like this before - it truly is an eye-opener to see (even if only in photos) that someone can do something this badly.

greg
 
Four of the seven rod end bearings that mount the elevators and the rudder had the jam nuts backed off by 1/4". If these are not tight, the control surface is only held by the two tiny AN3 rivets that hold the nut plate to the rudder/elevator spar.

This was indeed the worst example of an RV I have seen in 22 years of my involvement with RV's. I do feel sad for the builder since he spent a significant amount of time and money on his project only to end up with a plane that endangers his and and any potential passengers lives and has no resale value. Like someone else noted, there is plenty of advice and support available from the RV community that is there for the asking.

Martin Sutter
Building and flying RV's since 1988
EAA Technical Counselor
 
Look, I am not defending this jackwagon, from what the descriptions of his aircraft sound like, he seems like an insult to the RV community. However I am stating that if you intentionally mess with his aircraft, especially trying to make it unflyable, then you are committing a felony. Loook at the signs that surround your airport.

I am sorry, but It is not up to the general public to determine if something is airworthy. We have all seen ultralights put together with bailing wire and a lawnmower engine with questionable aerodynamics. At my airport we dealt with a couple of cessnas that were way beyond and annual, the pilots flew them all over a heavily populated area, the police told us it was strictly an FAA matter and we bad to go that route.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top