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XC question re tandem cockpits.

P

PilotAlan

I'm New Here
Hi all,
So, the wife wants something faster. This Thanksgiving trip to FL was awesome, but she is tired of 122 knots.

We are thinking of an RV8, but I haven't been able to find info online on flying long XCs, and cockpit management.
Where do you put water bottles, snacks, etc? With her in the back, where can she put her book, etc?
With a backseat or accessible baggage compartment, you stow stuff behind. What do you do in an RV8?

Thanks for the feedback. I'm new here. Name's Alan, I'm on the blue board with the same name.
Been flying for 25 years, 600 hrs, owned a Cherokee 180 for the last 6 years.
In the next year I'll be buying either a 6, 7, or 8.
 
Well the rear seat in an 8 is roomy, side pockets can be installed from the front to the back on each side and also storage on the back of the front seat can have storage. There is a front storage for things not needed during flight as well as aft storage. Oh an welcome to VAF!

Bird
 
Welcome Alan.

(I must admit I have no idea what the "Blue Board" is.)

You have no baggage access in the -8. As for water bottles, books, etc., you can build in (or add) a cup holder for them.

Many -8 pilots will say their SO's really like the extra room in back.

However, my SO likes sitting next to me and having access to the baggage compartment.

I have to admit it is nice to keep a cooler back there and access lunch during long X/C flights.

Unless you are set on doing acrobatics, you might want to look at the -9. It is more of an X/C machine than the -6, 7, or 8; although, they do make great traveling machines as well. The only thing you give up with the -9 is the ability to do acro. Speed, climb, etc. is virtually identical.

Best of luck with your selection.
 
My wife insists on keeping an incredible amount of stuff in a small backpack that she somehow finds room for. Food, water, the iPad, etc. you will likely learn to manage with whatever room you have. She isn't going to make a submarine sandwich back there, but the -8 is surprisingly roomy with many side pockets, foot wells, and other nooks and crannies.
 
bird said:
Well the rear seat in an 8 is roomy, side pockets can be installed from the front to the back on each side and also storage on the back of the front seat can have storage.
Click to expand...

N941WR said:
(I must admit I have no idea what the "Blue Board" is.)
You have no baggage access in the -8. As for water bottles, books, etc., you can build in (or add) a cup holder for them.

Unless you are set on doing acrobatics, you might want to look at the -9. It is more of an X/C machine than the -6, 7, or 8; although, they do make great traveling machines as well. The only thing you give up with the -9 is the ability to do acro.
Click to expand...
Thanks!
My wife and I are both broad-shouldered. I have a 52 inch chest. A Cherokee is marginal, even with her seat all the way back to offset us a little. So a 6,7, or 9 would be sub-optimal (although much shorter trip times would make up for some of it).

As far as the acro, like most of us, 75% of my flight time is solo.  So being able to do light acro would be an outstanding bonus that I'd rather not give up.

Thanks for the help,
BTW, the blue board is Pilots of America message board.
 
Welcome to VAF!

PilotAlan said:
Hi all, ----------
I'm new here. Name's Alan,
Click to expand...

Alan,
welcome.gif
to the good ship VAF.

I suggest you find a way to get your wife a ride in an 8, and a 7/9. Or, for the ultimate in comfort, a 10 :D

Then let her decide which one to purchase.
 
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Toobuilder said:
My wife insists on keeping an incredible amount of stuff in a small backpack that she somehow finds room for. Food, water, the iPad, etc. you will likely learn to manage with whatever room you have
Click to expand...
Great! Not having experience, I was concerned with a backpack or similar impinging on stick movement. Looking at photos, it appears tighter than it now seems.

When flying solo XC, where do you stow the stuff that the rest of us throw on the empty passenger seat?
 
If you are wide shouldered the 6,7,9 most likely won't work for you. Take a look at the 14, or the 10 if you think you might want 4 seats.
 
PilotAlan said:
Hi all,
So, the wife wants something faster. This Thanksgiving trip to FL was awesome, but she is tired of 122 knots.

We are thinking of an RV8, but I haven't been able to find info online on flying long XCs, and cockpit management.
Where do you put water bottles, snacks, etc? With her in the back, where can she put her book, etc?
With a backseat or accessible baggage compartment, you stow stuff behind. What do you do in an RV8?

Thanks for the feedback. I'm new here. Name's Alan, I'm on the blue board with the same name.
Been flying for 25 years, 600 hrs, owned a Cherokee 180 for the last 6 years.
In the next year I'll be buying either a 6, 7, or 8.
Click to expand...

In my -8 I keep water bottles, pens, charts, etc on top of a couple of panels that are between the wing spar and the gear towers. They seem to stay there just fine. I also occasionally store things on the forward cockpit floor just ahead of the spar, but I have to loosen my shoulder straps a bit to reach those. My SO places a descent sized hand bag between the rear stick and the front seat-back. There is enough room there that it doesn't impinge on the stick movement. There is also a little room between the rear seat cushions and the rear cockpit cover panels to wedge water bottles, books, etc.

So far, this has worked well for cross countries, but our longest legs to date have only been a little over 2:15 flight time.

Skylor
 
Consider this...

Alan,

If there was a prize for stuffing the most stuff in the back seat of an -8 my wife would win, hands down. We have been all over this country with over 1700 hours in our RV-8 in the past 7 years. Kathy makes use of the side pockets and several pockets on the back of the front seat as well as a bit of storage on either side of the rear seat cushion. She somehow finds room for her purse, a good book, the DVD player for in-flight movies, her iPad and iPhone, a snack bag, two bottles of water, her knitting bag and... (wait for it)... our two chihuahuas! :eek: Oh, and don't forget the water bowl and food for the dogs.

I do remove the rear stick so I don't have to fight the three of them for control.
 
Alan, we're like Smokey and Kathy (sans chihuahuas). I just sit up there and ask for things, and Patti hands them forward. I have no idea where she stows it all, but it may involve a top hat and a wand.

Seriously, my -8 was built for the mission you describe. The big motor hauls a heavy load to cool air altitudes as quickly as possible. The raised turtledeck increases rear baggage volume...a lot. The tip-over canopy is completely out of the way for rear seat boarding (you'll see when your wife tries a slider), and the narrowed sill rails add a bit more shoulder room. The center mounted rollbar is a huge handhold for ladies of a certain age; something to hang on to while on the wing walk, and solid support in just the right place for hoisting in and out.

Most of the above is part of a Showplanes fastback kit: http://www.showplanes.com/index.php...ref=FB_8&sid=x23i7a1qv7230h79zf980600jnocvsj6

When solo, small backpacks, etc drop into the footwells on each side of your seat....which illustrates the cabin width difference between an -8 and the rest. See how much space between our shoulders and the canopy?

xmn57t.jpg


N941WR said:
The only thing you give up with the -9 is the ability to do acro. Speed, climb, etc. is virtually identical.
Click to expand...

Bwahahahahaha!!!!

Oops, sorry Bill. That just slipped out ;)

-8 owners don't miss a picnic cooler because we get there well before lunch. I routinely flight plan 180 knots chock to chock.
 
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xblueh2o said:
If you are wide shouldered the 6,7,9 most likely won't work for you. Take a look at the 14, or the 10 if you think you might want 4 seats.
Click to expand...

Welcome Alan! I am almost done with my -7, based at BJC, so no flying experience yet. But I can tell you from sitting in it during the build...wide shoulders are not a good fit for the 6/7/9's. I am building a -7 for two reasons, my SO likes to sit next to me and I like to share the flying experience with my passengers...everyone like to look at the panel and see the runway on approach, etc. Second, if I am flying solo its nice to have the open seat next to me to utilize if needed.

But....I will admit to a certain RV8 envy, that's a great plane...although I cant believe its as good for long cross country flights as the 'side by sides' because of the cockpit layout. But...alas, we cant have it all...I'd rather do formation and aerobatics in the -8 so pick your poison.
 
PilotAlan said:
Great! Not having experience, I was concerned with a backpack or similar impinging on stick movement. Looking at photos, it appears tighter than it now seems.

When flying solo XC, where do you stow the stuff that the rest of us throw on the empty passenger seat?
Click to expand...

One thing you might consider if you have a "pilot + passenger" mission like I do (vs. a "crew"), is to make the stick easily removable. I'm going to use a quick release similar to a bicycle seat post clamp so that the stick can be removed and stowed when conducting "passenger" missions.

As for stowing "stuff" up front when solo - I have the standard -8 side pockets and rear seat footwells as well as some custom pockets low and to the sides (under the power quadrant and console) that most people cover with an aluminum plate. the cell phone goes on the upper longeron behind the roll bar brace, and the iPod mini clips to the glare shield lip. Finally, because I have a flat wrap windscreen, I have pockets sewn into the glareshield cover for charts, pens, notpad, etc.

My wife and I did Osh a couple years ago and even with a tent, tools, tie downs, canopy cover, clothes and food, we were still able to do 6+ hour flying days in relative comfort. Plenty of room with some planning.
 
PilotAlan said:
BTW, the blue board is Pilots of America message board.
Click to expand...

Uh oh! Don't let it be known over there that you're considering a switch to the dark side! I'm a lurker on that board and have noticed quite a bit of disdain for RVers ... they think we're all a bunch of overhead break flying fighter pilot wannabes.

But back on topic; like the others have said, you will find a way to make it work with the -8 back seat. My spousal unit travels just fine back there with a pillow and a book with plenty of room for water bottles and a lunch bag.

*edit* Too late, cat's outta the bag, you already posted the question there as well! It still looks civil so far...
 
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Except for panel space, I would make a case for the RV-8 as being ?arguably? superior for truly long cross countries vs. the side by side RVs -- In terms of ergonomics and comfort. The -8 really gives you plenty of wiggle room that the side by side RVs desperately lack. There is nothing more uncomfortable than sitting next to someone for 5 hours while having to over-lap shoulders, bump sides, reach around, or squeeze tightly next too. I know it may seem counter intuitive, but the fact is that nearly, but not all, side by side General Aviation aircraft leave a lot to be desired in creature comfort on this specific point. They all seem designed for 1930s versions of humanity in terms of shoulder width. I have flown in RV-6s and -7s and frankly, can't wait to get on the ground after an hour sitting next to a friend. The exception would be the RV-14. Which is the reason it exists ? to address this issue. I am a normal sized guy (5? 10?), with normal but slightly broad shoulders and in the other side by side RVs it becomes really uncomfortable having to sling your arm behind the pilot or passenger just to make room to move around. For short hops it?s not a big deal but after a while it becomes tedious when someone has to move to allow the other just to shift weight or pass a map. Maybe I am more critical of this because I flew an antique/classic for decades, where shoulder room was only a dream.
Conversely the RV-8 has plenty of shoulder room so it?s never a matter of feeling squeezed into a tight space. Your bottom will wear out long before your upper body ever takes note that it?s in an aircraft. In the side by sides, it always seems a battle between shoulders for room. An added advantage of the wide tandem seating is that your passenger has free reign to move about at their leisure. Whether you have a guy or a girl back there, they have far more freedom of movement in the -8. Space for cockpit garbage is abundant.
The downsides are of course the following:

If you want to feel like an airline pilot with three or four flat panels and a dozen radios, the -8 is not for you. Panel space is plenty sufficient, especially with today?s newer systems, but the gadgeteers and the avionics dependent have to plan accordingly. You?ve plenty of room on the -8 panel, but some folks just want triple of everything and that means a side by side panel.
If you have to access large items in flight, it?s not for you. But it will hold a surprising amount of garbage between the seat and cockpit walls. (however, having a passenger pass something up to you is actually nicer than both of you having to shift around so they can get something out of the back).

You cannot put an air conditioner in the baggage as easily as you can in the side by side?but it can be done for those needing it.

It?s not as ?intimate? as a side by side but the need to hold your gals hand kinda goes out the window two hours into a long trip. Some passengers will love the tandem and others will feel the need to be seated beside you. I?d suggest bumming your passenger rides in both types, and for more than five minutes. Some might feel isolated in the -8 while others love the freedom of movement and the ability to do as they please back there without getting in the way of operations.
 
PilotAlan said:
My wife and I are both broad-shouldered. I have a 52 inch chest.
Click to expand...



DanH said:
The raised turtledeck increases rear baggage volume...a lot. The tip-over canopy is completely out of the way for rear seat boarding (you'll see when your wife tries a slider), and the narrowed sill rails add a bit more shoulder room. The center mounted rollbar is a huge handhold for ladies of a certain age; something to hang on to while on the wing walk, and solid support in just the right place for hoisting in and out.

Most of the above is part of a Showplanes fastback kit: http://www.showplanes.com/index.php...ref=FB_8&sid=x23i7a1qv7230h79zf980600jnocvsj6
Click to expand...

I too am wide in the shoulder area, so much so that a standard sliding canopy 8 is very uncomfortable for me, and quite possibly something I could not even fly due to the narrow width at the upper arm area.

On the other hand, the RV8 with a ShowPlanes canopy setup is wide enough to fit me..........it is all about how the canopy moves, a slider must have parallel tracks, and the narrow part of the cockpit dictates the track width, while the wider part suffers from that. In the ShowPlanes setup, the canopy is side hinged, and therefore there are no guide tracks in the way.

I have test fit both, and if my wife will ever let me build an 8, it will have a ShowPlanes canopy.
 
My wife loves riding in the back of the -8. She brings the iPad, pillow, blanket, purse, two water bottles, snacks, etc. etc. and finds plenty of space for it all. The kids are happy with it too. My daughter and I flew to Oshkosh this year from Phoenix with one fuel stop (I have aux tanks in the wingtips). She had a great time back there just playing games on the iPad and chatting with me for hours. I kept asking her if she needed to stop for a potty break. "Nope--keep going Daddy, this is fun." It's really a very comfortable cross country airplane for both front and backseats.
 
When we flew XC in our -8 (sadly sold but not forgotten) I looped my purse strap around the welded front seat support crossbar, and it sat nicely between the side of the fuselage and my leg. I put a spring-loaded D-clip on one end of the strap so I could easily detach it from the purse and loop it around the bar. It held my camera, phone, music player (now all one gadget), wallet, water, gloves, etc, and when we got to where we were going, I just unclipped it and away we went. We didn't have the plane long enough for me to fly it from the front seat, but I loved having the back seat all to myself when we went places. My only complaint was that I froze my butt off in the winter. GET HEATED SEATS!!!

And if your wife likes to help with the flying, get a GRT EFIS and she can tune the radios and enter/edit flight plans from the back seat via Android. :D
 
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The -14 is a perfect match...

...for your mission, as you express it. But, of course, there are no used ones to buy and it is unlikely that you could be in one next year. The -10 would be a great xc machine for you, but they are expensive. So, that's may make the -8 your best match.

However, do not underestimate Katie's comment on how cold the backseat of the -8 is in winter. Unless someone has made significant modifications (and those -8s are out there but not the norm), you will NOT likely want to subject your wife to a long, Christmas-time x-c. Planes built following factory plans are frickin' frigid back there in winter. Nor does the average -8 on the market have the modifications described by Dan or even pockets on the side as many describe. You can build/re-build these modifications into a plane but, otherwise, you will have to shop carefully and patiently.

And, I definitely endorse the idea of ensuring that you both get into an -8 before pulling the trigger. I find the space in back to be tight with even just an iPad (hence my gift list request for a mini-iPad!). Of course, I won't give up the stick and the ability to take the controls, if ever needed.
 
However, do not underestimate Katie's comment on how cold the backseat of the -8 is in winter. Unless someone has made significant modifications (and those -8s are out there but not the norm), you will NOT likely want to subject your wife to a long, Christmas-time x-c. Planes built following factory plans are frickin' frigid back there in winter.
Click to expand...

Any hubby worth his salt has/will find a way to heat the back seat. I did!
 
Alan,

I would be happy to give you a ride in my-10 if you want to check out that model. Based at KAPA. Don't bring your wife, unless you are prepared to go down that road. She will love all the easily accessible space.:)

PM me if you are interested.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
N15JB said:
I would be happy to give you a ride in my-10 if you want to check out that model.

Don't bring your wife, unless you are prepared to go down that road. She will love all the easily accessible space.:)
Click to expand...

Heed this warning, it is serious.

My wife loves the 10, and while it no longer fits our usual flying mission, she is very resistant to letting it go for a two place.
 
Wife and occasionally the Boston Terrior

Alright, this thing made three pages so I'll toss in my experiences with the -8 (1575 hrs, 13+ yrs).

I made a (removable) platform/enclosure that closes in the control mechanism opening and makes a seat-height platform for sitting cross-legged, or setting the backpack. It has the vent in it but is strong enough to stack things on it. No worries about jamming things in around the mechanism.

When she gets in for a trip, I follow up by handing her the backpack, food bag, purse and the O2 bottle. We have brought the dog a couple of times, and that limits things and duration somewhat. Never had one complaint (from her or the dog) about space, only occasional "bumps" I don't warn about.

Doesn't hurt that I have a 66% scale wife, either. ;)

Bottom line - side-by-side has less personal space, but better baggage accommodations. Got the cash, get a -10. And I'll see you flying straight and level - looking out the top of my canopy.
 
Low Pass said:
Doesn't hurt that I have a 66% scale wife, either. ;)

Bottom line - side-by-side has less personal space, but better baggage accommodations. Got the cash, get a -10. And I'll see you flying straight and level - looking out the top of my canopy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the ongoing tandem vs side by side discussion misses a few important metrics. Height and leg length is a real issue. When I was considering an RV, my friend and frequent passenger, Ms. Lee (a little over 6' with long legs) and I (6'3") tried out the options. The '8' won handily on legroom.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Louise Hose said:
Yep, the rule in winter is that we either take the -6 on x-c or Paul heats the backseat by sitting there and I fly in the front! :p
Click to expand...

Now that we no longer live in the sub-tropics, back seat heat for the Valkyrie might move WAY up on the priority list! A guy's gotta have SOMETHING to work on....;)
 
wera710 said:
Except for panel space, I would make a case for the RV-8 as being ?arguably? superior for truly long cross countries vs. the side by side RVs...
Click to expand...

My totally biased opinion is that the -8 has plenty of panel space for a cross country machine:

DSC_2832small.JPG


Even for the passenger:

DSC_2179small.JPG


Skylor
RV-8
 
Of course...

A RV-8 for cross-countries? Wasn't one just recently flown from Oregon to England?....without long range tanks!

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
A RV-8 for cross-countries? Wasn't one just recently flown from Oregon to England?....without long range tanks!

Best,
Click to expand...

There certainly wasn't a spouse in the backseat, though!

No question that a properly equipped -8 (like all RVs, including the -3) is a fine solo xc machine.
 
It's the view

In deciding between the 7 and 8 several years ago, I thought about how I would like to ride in the back seat of an 8 for long trips. Since one of the primary joys of flying oneself, for me at least, is to be able to see forward, or as I describe airline flying, seeing where you almost went instead of where you are going. For me, it's all about the view, and I would not like riding in the back of a tandem arrangement for long periods. Besides, my wife is a white-knuckle flier, only flies with me if I am taking her somewhere she really wants to go, such as to see the Grandkids. She also feels more comfortable beside me, so those two factors made me choose the 7.
 
OLDSAM said:
... one of the primary joys of flying oneself, for me at least, is to be able to see forward, or as I describe airline flying, seeing where you almost went instead of where you are going.
Click to expand...
My wife is very short, and cannot see over the panel.

She would actually have a much better view with the bubble canopy than she has now. She would probably have a better forward view even around my head than she has now.
We'll see when I get her a ride in an -8 :D
 
If she's short, then she will appreciate the room offered by the -8 even more. A custom seat pad which gets her head up higher offers not only a great view but more leg room than she can use. My wife is 5-1 and with a thick seat pad, she can't even come close to touching the rear rudder pedals in the -8 or the Rocket.

...Which is why I took them out.
 
Good point about the cushion. I have a 2" thick styrofoam block cut in the shadow shape of the seat bottom. It's covered with one ply of glass fabric and painted. I slip it under the rear seat cushion before boarding smaller passengers. Being able to easily see over the canopy sills really improves their flight experience.
 
RV8 rear seat comfort

Alan,

Before Marcie (my wife) and I bought an RV8, we persuaded Jay Pratt (FT Worth) to provide a ride for both of us in his RV8 "Borrowed Horse." A few thoughts:

1. The rear seat visibility is great if the seat cushion provides adequate elevation. Marcie is about 5', and Oregon Aero built a custom "kiddy seat" for her that brings her head within 2" of the canopy. Thus she has a great view. She is even taking a "Pinch Hitter" course, and has successfully landed from the rear seat. (Plug: Dave Austin of Denton, TX is the best instructor I have met. both for transition and "Pinch Hitter" training).

2. The RV8 has enough baggage space to take anything that you might want to take on the airlines. The only disadvantage is that the baggage cannot be reached in flight. But there is, as posted above, plenty of space in the rear cockpit for anything that might be wanted in flight.

3. Provide your wife with a Gerber electrically heated jacket (or vest) and socks. She'll be warm and toasty, even on the coldest winter day.

4. Above all, get both of you a ride in an RV8. We are located in Pagosa Springs, CO, so if you might be in the area I would be pleased to offer you both a ride. Perhaps Marcie and I could make it an excuse to visit Denver for lunch, if you are interested.
 
gear1 said:
We are located in Pagosa Springs, CO, so if you might be in the area I would be pleased to offer you both a ride. Perhaps Marcie and I could make it an excuse to visit Denver for lunch, if you are interested.
Click to expand...

I *will* take you up on that. We have to dig out from 3 weeks of vacation and get past the holidays, but we'd love to come down.
 
XC in the RV-8

With the exception of the round the world pilots, Marthajane and I have logged some of the longest RV-8 cross country flights in the Doll. I have made several nonstop flight between OSH and 52F in the 4:45 range and one that exceeded 5:00. I can't imagine doing that in a 6,7 or 9.

Louise is a pilot and aircraft owner, and understandably is happier in the front seat in all three RVs they own. I would guess any builder with a spouse that is a pilot, the question of tandem vs. side by side will be more complicated.

Van now offers the RV-14 to correct the problem of big guys sitting in a cramped RV-6.7 or 9. That is why that airplane exist. I've flown with DR as safety observer while he flew under the hood, and found that an hour in the 6 is long enough for me. I hope DR didn't mind my left arm around him in my attempt to manage our combined shoulder space.

This always comes down to mission and personal preference. If your wife is not a pilot, and you really want to own an RV-8, then consider the fact that you will most likely be flying your 8 by yourself 90% of the time. Because of this fact, I always advise the selection of the RV that the pilot really wants to own.

If you really want an RV-8 and your wife is a pilot, and can share the front seat pilot duties like Paul and Louise, than you should build/buy the RV your really want.

If what you really want is an RV-6.7 or 9, then that is the RV you should own.
 
Wife!

I have a simple take on this one. If "She is not happy" you may not be.
It is well worth the time to take her to a show and let her set in both a "7" and in an"8". Setting in the back, letting him have full control is not for every wife. I can not think of the numbers anymore but Van said their question-airs shown most wives like to be if the front with the baggage were she can reach it, behind the seat. Keep her happy, you will be too!
Hope this helps yours as always R.E.A. III #80888
 
I have been flying a tandem aircraft for almost 30 years. It is a pilots airplane. To me flying a side by side aircraft is like driving a motorcycle from the side car. My wife is a non pilot, and she humors me by flying with me in the rocket. We have been coast to coast, both of us in comfort. The reality is, for most of us, that our non pilot spouse, flies with us for just a few hours of the year, maybe 10% in my case. There is no way I would want to give up center line seating, right on the C of G, for 10% of my flying and nor would she want me to.
Having said all of that tough stuff; I have been very careful to NEVER let her ride in a side by side aircraft......
 
I agree that keeping your spouse happy is the key, but some will actually prefer sitting in the back. Mine certainly does. We've had plenty of hours in side by sides from spam cans, RV's and of course the Hiperbipe. Once she had a ride in the RV-8, there was no doubt that out future airplanes would be tandems. She has little interest in what the displays show or what levers/knobs I'm manipulating to make us fly - to borrow a line from a movie we all know, she just wants me to "...do some of that pilot $h!t, Mav". When we win the lottery and buy a TBM850, I'm sure she'll sit in the back in that one too.
 
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