GPS & Nav/Com with SkyView?

Hi all,

This is probably a split question between GPS, the Comm forums, and probably a few others. I had to stick it somewhere.

As part of my over-rationalizing of whether I can afford to build a -9a, I'm planning a glass and an analog panel option. Right now I'm licensed for VFR, but will get IFR next spring. So the ultimate question is given both options, what do I need to fill out the IFR equipment list?

The glass would be dual SkyViews, with all of Dynon's options for integrated GPS, Mode S transponder, etc. I'm guessing here I just need a Nav/Com with a slaved heading/glideslope indicator. I was thinking either a King KX-155 or Narco MK12D Nav/Com.

For the analog panel, the same nav/com radio and heading/GS, combined with a Flight Cheetah FL-650 GPS and probably a GTX-330 if I went Mode S, or a Narco AT165K if I wanted to stick with Mode C for now.

Now, of course the big question/confusion... As I understand it, neither GPS is really certified, and thus I supposedly can't file /G. That's fine from a paperwork side. From a more practical standpoint, what types of IFR approaches and/or landings could I not do with this setup? Suggestions for additions or alternatives to the equipment to change that? I'd like to avoid connecting my wallet to the Garmin GNS or GTN vacuum.

Thanks!

I'd like to know if the skyview GPS system shows frequencies and airport/runway information

bkthomps said:

I'd like to know if the skyview GPS system shows frequencies and airport/runway information

Click to expand...

Yes, with purchase of the map database.

The SkyView system does have basic runway and comm info. It's very useful and easy to access. However it is not complete, for instance it did not have tower or ground frequencies for a relatively new Class D airport in our area (KHYI). These are in the AF/D. SkyView also does not have any of the IFR frequencies such as ILS, clearance, approach, etc.. So you'll still need charts and plates or that iPad you've been putting off buying.

SkyView will display a HSI, and you can use it for both NAV and GPS course guidance from a IFR device (check the SkyView install manual for compatibility before purchasing). So a seperate HSI is not truly necessary.

I also agonized over the IFR capable GPS decision. One route would be one of the older Garmin panel mounts like the 155XL. It appears Garmin no longer sells these, but you might be able to get a used one for less than both arms and a leg. I'd make sure Garmin still offers updates.

But I wanted two radios, and after doing the math I kept coming back around to a 430W + SL40 as the right choice, and I'm happy with that choice, although right now I use the 430W as just an expensive radio.

I do have the IFR rating, but I'm woefully not current. Getting the rating will make you a better pilot, but it's expensive to keep it current when you don't have your own plane. I outfitted my 9A to make a good IFR practice platform so that I can stay current, even if I don't plan on using it for real IMC except under benign conditions. In some respects I probably should have waited until I had the plane flying.

As far as which approaches you could not fly without the IFR GPS - many these days if all you have is a NAV receiver. With a glide slope the situation isn't hopeless. Many VOR approaches require DME. You can substitute a IFR GPS distance if you have it. But GPS overlays are taking over. You'll want the IFR GPS by the time you have your rating.

For IFR flight these days, not having an IFR certificated GPS unit to enable you to legally fly RNAV GPS approaches greatly reduces the utility of flying IFR. For smaller general aviation airports RNAV GPS is the future, providing ILS minimums with LPV approaches. Without a panel installed TSO IFR GPS unit and a current nav database, you are not legal and you're not particularly safe to fly RNAV GPS SIAPs.

That's what I figured. And by reading around on the FAA's site, am I correct in saying that RNAV approaches require a WAAS-capable GPS?

Ultimately, I'm trying to find what options I have for panel-mounted TSO'd IFR GPSs *other* than the GNS 430W (and GPS 400W, which is the GPS only sans com/nav), which would allow me to fly RNAV approaches.

Dual Skyviews, Dynon transponder, Garmin 430W (or better yet GTN750), intercom. That's all you need!

sbalmos said:

And by reading around on the FAA's site, am I correct in saying that RNAV approaches require a WAAS-capable GPS?

Click to expand...

Not required to be WAAS capable unless you want to fly to LPV minimums with vertical guidance (and who wouldn't?); otherwise, you would be flying LNAV non-precison approaches. Most of the new RNAV SIAPs offer LPV, LNAV/VNAV, and LNAV minimums on the same approach. Bottom line...for the extra $$$ up front for the WAAS capability you will be miles ahead with the versatility of the avionics.

what is your budget?

19k Got me dual Skyviews, GPS, dual ADAHARS, dual backup batteries, engine module with fuel flow, 2 axis autopilot, one SL30, GTX327, and GMA240 an elt, antennas, all the point-to-point wiring.
Dynon's transponder now cost about the same as the 327 and wiring is easier so that would be the way to go. Wiring is simple between the SL30 and Dynon, much less so with a KX155, MK12D, 430, etc. I think you would need another module from Dynon to make those go (and more wiring). The SL30 is almost like having two complete nav coms. A second com frequency can be monitored, a second nav frequency can be displayed on the Dynon HSI.
I can file IFR, fly across the country and do an ILS approach. At selected airports. Sometimes you can ask ATC to call out an intersection for you otherwise you can't legally do many approachs even though that intersection shows on the Dynon map. That is the down side to not having an IFR certified GPS.
What all this boils down to is how much can you spend and how much would you use it? IFR Certified GPS will add $$ to the installation, $ to your monthly expense. If I had to fly approaches in low weather, it would be a price that had to be paid. No longer have to do that, I can wait a day when needed.

Ya, the brain's starting to click slightly now. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not I want WAAS for RNAV w/LPV approaches or not. And frankly, at this moment, I don't see a need to shell out nearly double for a WAAS-capable GPS (of which I've only been able to find the arm-leg-firstborn 430Ws or GTNs. No other manufacturer...).

I've already looked around at the available approaches around me. And of the ones I've found that are RNAV GPS-only, they're all LNAV. None yet require LPV.

So, at the moment, I've got a few different configurations of my avionics cost spreadsheet:

1) Analog with nav/com and a non-WAAS TSO'd installed GPS - Handles all approaches except for RNAV LPV.
2) SkyView glass with same.
3) Analog or SkyView glass with nav/com and VFR only GPS (such as Flight Cheetah for analog, or just SkyView's internal GPS) - Handles IFR en route, ILS/Loc/VOR approaches. Basically everything *but* RNAV.

Does this look right?

--S

You still have a long time to worry about avionics. Step one is the empenage kit. You'll be surprised how many things will change as you go along.

777 is right--you have to start somewhere. While we were building our 9A, there were plenty of changes in what was available for the panel. Then we changed it later (added a 430W and audio panel.) That's why there are all those screws in the panel! Check out the "bargain brands," (XCOM radio, VAL nav units, etc) and see if they will work for you. Watch for used stuff and bargains. I paid $40 for a full set of NEW seatbelts/harness, and even liked the color. If cost is really important, remember there is a huge difference in the cost of props, and a good used engine will save you about $10K. Painting prices can vary widely, as can interiors. None of these things affect the functionality of the airplane all that much, but can save you a ton of money. We put a very nice 9A in the air for about $45K less than five years ago, complete with glass panel. We have added about $10K to that now, but the used engine has cost us only a couple hundred for a new fuel pump. It doesn't burn oil, compression still checks out 78+, and it will last at least another thousand hours before overhaul (it should, anyway.) The main thing is to start pounding those rivets! The rest will happen.

Bob

S:

One choice made by some pilots in my area was to purchase the non-WAAS 430 units that were coming out of cockpits over in Europe, after WAAS was mandated...or at least, that was the reason given. Another option is to look at some of used gear that's been bench tested, approach approved and are available on the used market (e.g. sold by Bennett Avionics in CT) such as the GX50 or GX60 ($2395/$2695).

Jack

sl-30

Although a but tricky, the sl 30 will identify a fix defined by two radials. this is done by displaying the standby frequency current radial on the unit while tracking the primary on the skyview hsi. page 15 of the users manual.