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ADS-B advice needed

wera710

Well Known Member
With Navworx more or less off the table for me -- they hiked the price yet again, to $1399, not including all the required peripherals -- and with the FAA B.S. hanging over them like the sword of Damocles, I have to start looking for less expensive alternatives. I fly analog for a reason and prefer it for the type of flying I do. Sport Aviating. You know, the thing the FAA seems to hate now days.

I need to keep my Mode-C transponder. I've no interest or funds available to put $2000 to $5000 more into my panel on a toy I fly for fun, formation, and very occasionally, trips. Navworx was a good solution but with everything required its now pushing $1700 to $1800. Meh. At that price, for me personally, its just not worth it any longer. However, I am stuck on the edge of a Mode-C Vail so I will be forced to get something eventually.

I need whatever ADS-B I get to work with AVARE, an outstanding, easy to use and free Android based app that does everything I need for x-country on my tablet. It needs to work with the run of the mill Mode-C transponders and wifi or Bluetooth to my android tablet. Be nice if it was under a grand.

Can anyone direct me to a system that functions similarly to the Navworx system? A competitor? I was ready to spring for the 600-EXP only to discover another price hike (its now fully double the price since its introduction) and the AD kind of took the wind out of the proverbial sails. Would like to get something in early 2017.
 
What brand and model is your current transponder? Models with serial data output will interface easier with ADS-B transmitters.
I advise to wait two or three months to see what happens with Navworx.
Other options are
Aspen ATX100G out & in
FreeFlight FDL-978-TX/L out only
L-3 Avionics LYNX NGT-1000 out only
Each of the above cost about $2000
ADS-B-Out-only will make you legal. Price may or may not drop.
The price of ADS-B-In receivers will surely drop over time.
 
In all honesty, I think there is nothing available within your price range, especially if you also want ADSB-in (which is not required). I would wait. My home airport KLVK is 28 nm from SFO, just within the mode C veil. But they have always had a waiver available for the mode C requirement (you just go up to the tower and sign it) as long as you come and go immediately out of the mode C airspace. I would not be surprised to see something similar for ADSB-out in 2020. Might something like that work for you? You would of course have to stay below 10,000'.
PS I just put in ADSB-out for a net cost of $1200, but I already had a Garmin 420W GPS.
 
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lol. Yeah, I saw that article. Avare rocks. The only reason I'd like IN is that if I am being forced to fork over money I have no need to spend, I might as well get something out of it. My Samsung tablet allows me to do that. The expenditure for OUT is still is hard to justify frankly, other than doing it at gun point. Unfortunately, down my way, west of Philly, everywhere we go is pretty much under the Mode-C vail for 10 minutes at least, but well outside the Class B. Traffic is generally not an issue.

As far as equipment. A Bendix/King KT76A Transponder. Radios: Garmin 300XL TSO and King KY97A TSO.

I was totally sold on the Navworx due to the compatibility with legacy panels, but the price hikes are making it less attractive every month. Started out around $800, and now worked its way to up to $1400. Plus the TransMons gadget, and antennas. Guess I'll have to put it off until the last possible day as originally planned. Or move. lol. Thanks for the responses. I just cannot justify a standalone IN receiver if I am going to have to pay for OUT eventually. Was really hoping someone was giving Navworx some competition for us analog guys.
 
Have you looked at Flightbox?

I purchased at OSH this summer a dual band Flightbox ADS-B "in" receiver and like it a lot. The single 978 band is $200 and the dual band (978 & 1090) is $240. I know from your posting that you use steam gauges, which is okay because that what I grew up on, but the Flightbox besides feeding my ForeFlight iPad, can also feed my GRT EFIS ADS-B data via a serial port hook up. You might check the Flightbox website out to see which apps their system feeds.
 
Jim, thanks! It looks like FlightBox works with Avare. At that price it actually makes sense. Cracks me up: $35 for WAAS GPS? Almost makes my spare XGPS160 redundant!

This is why I got into the EAA decades ago. Aviation was getting far too expensive for the average guy. I am glad to see that even in the RV community there are those who can still find a deal. I fly an RV-8 on a Fly-Baby budget. So every time the FAA decides its time to price more guys out of the sport, its nice to see the community come up with these kinds of alternatives. Looks like the FlightBox will do me until 2020.

Doug, I will also revisit the Avare $8 radio article. Do you know anyone who has built it? Seems too good to be true.
 
I don't understand why everyone is getting so uptight about ADSB out when it's still 3 years down the road. My guess is that there will be plenty of competition by the last year before the actual requirement. Who knows what will be available in electronic equipment by then. Case in point : we just finished our new plane with what was the latest screen available from Dynon. Well, a month after our first flight, they come up with a newer display. It just illustrates how quickly things change. Just sayin'.
 
I bought this radio a year ago
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB2-0-Digi...993931?hash=item33ab94e4cb:g:JooAAOSwo6lWQbYC
and have been using it since. With the avare pro app which costs $2.50 it works great.
Weather shows all the time but without adsb out there is no traffic unless someone else with out is triggering the ground stations. No different than any other adsb in radio. I use a rooted nexus 7 so with a y cable I am able to charge the tablet and run the radio at the same time. Otherwise you are limited to about three hours on a tablet charge because it powers the radio from the tablet.
There is no building required. Just plug it in. I doubt you will find anything cheaper.
 
Doug, please clarify something. "No traffic unless you have Out." Does this apply to ANY stand alone IN receiver, be in FlightBox, XGPS190s, Garmin etc? I thought the point of these was to allow one to see both Traffic AND Weather on a tablet or phone. Otherwise, what's the point?

Wood, the reason many of us get exercised about ADS-B is because its being shoved down our throats. Its not the 2020 time line. Its the simple fact that once again, a government agency that none of us had any hand in electing, has decided to force us to buy something in the so called name of safety. You can crash 50,000 automobiles a year and nada. Nothing. That's ok. But one mid-air? The world comes to a standstill, politically speaking. Our "negative" impact on the planet and humanity is infinitesimally small in General Aviation. Yet we have to equip as if the lives of thousands ride on every flight. One wonders why the FAA, with their over reactionary ethos, doesn't just ground GA if they want "safe." That seems to be the end game. Simply price the average guy out of aviation until only the truly well heeled are left. Thing is, Life is not safe and when some of us grew up, that was accepted and understood. "Skate at your own Risk" didn't just have to do with skating rinks. It DEFINED freedom. Now days its a cloistered, coddled world where folks cannot even look cross eyed at something without being accused of all sorts of evil doings or thoughts. So to many of us, ADS-B is just one more example of the little guy getting stepped on by the Nanny State. I have no beef with people who have tons of cash who want to throw airline level toys into their tiny little sport planes. When its voluntary, have at it! While I might see no use in a $30,000 glass panel, my friend LOVES his, and that is how it should be. He didn't need any of that **** in a sport plane, but he loves that stuff and could afford it. Choice. The definition thereof. But to tell a guy with a clapped out C-150 that is worth, on a good day, $15,000, that he needs to put $5000 into a certified ADS-B system (new transponder, ADS-B, and Installation), well, that's just WRONG. The $500 rebate is a joke. ITs like saying ok, we screwed you out of a third of the value of your aircraft, so here is a free coffee to make it all better.
And THAT is why people get pissed or worked up about it. If I had a certified aircraft, I'd be gunning for blood right now. A guy with a ragged out electric equipped T-craft, living under Mode-C, has ZERO use for ADS-B, but he's still going to be forced to buy it. He's flown for 40 years with nary a mid-air, and now days, there are even LESS GA aircraft to dodge. But that doesn't mean a thing. I sometimes think we in the RV world forget our roots. "Experimental" used to be a means of making aviation affordable for the average person. Today? Most new builders are pretty well heeled and are putting more into their panel than most certified antique/classics COST in their entirety. So maybe ADS-B is not as big a deal for the average RV guy. But for many pilots, these costs are driving them to other endeavors. I won't even go into young people. Many WANT to fly, but look at the cost and regulations and think we are insane.

We experimental guys have it easier than the certified guys, but throwing cash away is not something we can all afford to do. Navworx is a great example. People said wait. Things will get cheaper. Really? So some of us didn't get it when it was $800. Or $900. Or $1179. It'll get cheaper by 2020 was the driving decider, oft repeated by friends everywhere. And yet its cost has steadily INCREASED yearly, not decreased, so if you wait, by 2020 it will probably be approx. $1800 instead of the $1400 it is today. And now the FAA is beating on the one company that made it reasonably affordable to have both IN and OUT in Certified and Experimental aircraft, using your existing equipment. And the likely result of this beating, will be, of course, to drive up the cost even more. Fun times, this.

LOL. Sorry guys. That's my rant for the day. I'd like to blame it on the lack of coffee, but to be honest, I actually had a cup while writing this! :D
 
Weather shows all the time but without adsb out there is no traffic unless someone else with out is triggering the ground stations. No different than any other adsb in radio.
Doug, please clarify something. "No traffic unless you have Out." Does this apply to ANY stand alone IN receiver, be in FlightBox, XGPS190s, Garmin etc?
Doug is correct. Without the OUT you do not get traffic no matter which IN receiver you have. But if you are flying close to somebody with OUT you will receive the traffic being sent to him, which can be misleading to you. WX is shown all the time.
:cool:
 
You do receive direct from anyone with adsb out. But only on the freq of your receiver. Weather is on 978 with any repeated traffic from the ground. A lot of adsb out planes are on 1090. Avare will receive both but only one at a time. I think you can buy two sdr radios and run both on avare but I have not tried it. I leave mine on 978. It seems traffic is unreliable enough I don't care to be distracted by it. If it shows up great. Maybe when 2020 gets closer and more people have out it will be fine.
 
Trig TT-31

Try the Trig TT-31. You need to change out the tray, but the main wiring harness is the same as the KT-76A. You will also need a position source input to be ADSB out.

Ben
 
Who said this was about safety? If that were so, then ADSB-in would be required. But it is not. Airliners already have TCAS. It's all about money. The FAA wants to stop paying for radar, and instead have you pay for ADSB-out. It's essentially a user fee.
 
wera710

I completely agree with your "rant" but thought posting it here would make little impact since sport flying seems to be diminishing in the EAA and perhaps even here.

To keep it on an RV related post, the IAC is wrestling with the problem of non compliance letters to those of us that spend more time in unusual attitudes since the ADS-B can't seem to recognize anything beyond straight and level or airline mandated 25 degree bank angles.

As far as getting completely rid of ground based radar identification, I guess the unfriendlies will be sure to equip by 2020.:)

Cheers, Hans
 
As far as getting completely rid of ground based radar identification, I guess the unfriendlies will be sure to equip by 2020.:)

AFAIK this only applies to FAA approach radars. The DOD owned "center radars" are actually being upgraded as we speak and are not going anywhere.
:cool:
 
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