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RV-4 aerobatics

smokyray said:
Eric, several years ago I entered my then new, unpainted 100 hour RV4 in a local IAC competition. From the moment I arrived the reception was well, chilly to say the least. From the inspection to registration to the flying, the disdain felt by me from the "good ole boys" was resplendent. Not to mention I had just returned from a rotation in Iraq dodging SAMs at night and supporting Special Forces in the F16. The stage was set for a good old southern butt whooping.
Needless to say I kept my cool, followed the rules and placed 3rd of 6 in the sportsman on my first try in my RV4, the only non-Pitts in attendance. I didn't have to shoot anybody, call in an air strike or dissect any judges with a K-Bar although that thought crossed my mind. :) Fact is, it soured me on competing and I'm sure others have similar tales. Aerobatics should be fun and competitions should reflect that attitude.


V/R
Smokey
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Ha Funny. I knew I wasn't the only one. Since before learning to fly, and finally getting the opportunity some 20 something years ago, I had wanted to learn aerobatics. 5 or 6 years ago I attended one of the local competetions. Try showing up in your Cherokee. Talk about rejection. I spent about an hour trying to talk and finally packed up and left. Never again. Once I was able to finally own my capable plane I found a good instructor who I fly with regularly. I'm not interested in competetion, ever, especially after that experience. I'm only interested in becoming the best flopper I can be, and I'm getting there, but with no thanks to the self centered perfectionists.
 
artrose said:
Ha Funny. I knew I wasn't the only one. Since before learning to fly, and finally getting the opportunity some 20 something years ago, I had wanted to learn aerobatics. 5 or 6 years ago I attended one of the local competetions. Try showing up in your Cherokee. Talk about rejection. I spent about an hour trying to talk and finally packed up and left. Never again. Once I was able to finally own my capable plane I found a good instructor who I fly with regularly. I'm not interested in competetion, ever, especially after that experience. I'm only interested in becoming the best flopper I can be, and I'm getting there, but with no thanks to the self centered perfectionists.
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You'll find a percentage of jerks out there no matter what kind of activity you're into. I'm not out to defend anyone who's a jerk only because I share an interest in acro with them. I'm not sure who the guys are you're referring to, but sorry you've shut the door on it based on the impression you got at one contest. What you decribe is not consistent with the folks I know in the sport.

In the past 6 years, I've attended 12 contests, flown 9, and run 3. Never had a bad experience with anyone. I can't say I've met anyone who I'd actually consider so self-centered that they couldn't be bothered to give the time of day to a newbie expressing interest in acro. Some folks DO visit contests and occasionally come away with the impression that the pilots are a somewhat standoffish bunch, not interested in talking to newbies or non-participants. It's not generally the case - it's just that there are a million things going on at a contest, and the pilots are typically either involved at the moment helping with the many things that make a contest go, or are focusing and mentally preparing for their next flight on the ground. It's hard to appreciate that unless you know what it takes to get a contest done. That's it. There are free moments, but you may have to catch someone at the right time, or when flights are done for the day. Catch somone who's not busy, show some genuine interest, and 99% of them will be happy to talk to you, help you, and they will be friendly.

I don't think pilots who fly competition aerobatics are any more arrogant or self-centered than any other type of pilot. I happen to think a lot of the over-inflated ego types are NOT involved with competition because their egos can't handle it. Any competition acro pilot who has worked through the categories has been humbled many times at contests. There isn't a whole lot of baseless hubris in this crowd. Competition pilots have no false sense of their abilities, because they have been publicly measured and documented many times. IMO, the worst example of outsized egos are in pilots who lack the knowledge to realize how deficient they truly are, yet feel they're beyond learning anything further.

Not saying you didn't have a bad experience and didn't ecounter a bunch of jerks, but it would be unfair and untrue to characterize the whole sport like that...not that you are.
 
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After or Before?

All that stuff can be kept positive and you don't need anything special for that. Don't bother with inverted oil, flop tubes, oil separators, accumulators, or any combination of these items unless you have interest aerobatics involving negative G. If you don't know the answer to this, get with an acro instructor and find out what style of acro suits you.
__________________
ERIC SANDIFER

If you choose to do any of this, can the aircraft be retrofitted or is it easier to do during the build? I would like to be prepared for anything so to speak, but I also want to keep the 4 simple, like it was originally intended. So far the only variance from stock that I plan is RV6 tanks. When I say stock, I mean fule injected 160hp with FP prop...as simple as possible. If I really start getting into it at a later date, maybe I would retro the AC, that way it is a simple build in the likely possibility that I don't need all of the "extras."
 
sandifer said:
You'll find a percentage of jerks out there no matter what kind of activity you're into. I'm not out to defend anyone who's a jerk only because I share an interest in acro with them. I'm not sure who the guys are you're referring to, but sorry you've shut the door on it based on the impression you got at one contest. What you decribe is not consistent with the folks I know in the sport.

In the past 6 years, I've attended 12 contests, flown 9, and run 3. Never had a bad experience with anyone. I can't say I've met anyone who I'd actually consider so self-centered that they couldn't be bothered to give the time of day to a newbie expressing interest in acro. Some folks DO visit contests and occasionally come away with the impression that the pilots are a somewhat standoffish bunch, not interested in talking to newbies or non-participants. It's not generally the case - it's just that there are a million things going on at a contest, and the pilots are typically either involved at the moment helping with the many things that make a contest go, or are focusing and mentally preparing for their next flight on the ground. It's hard to appreciate that unless you know what it takes to get a contest done. That's it. There are free moments, but you may have to catch someone at the right time, or when flights are done for the day. Catch somone who's not busy, show some genuine interest, and 99% of them will be happy to talk to you, help you, and they will be friendly.

I don't think pilots who fly competition aerobatics are any more arrogant or self-centered than any other type of pilot. I happen to think a lot of the over-inflated ego types are NOT involved with competition because their egos can't handle it. Any competition acro pilot who has worked through the categories has been humbled many times at contests. There isn't a whole lot of baseless hubris in this crowd. Competition pilots have no false sense of their abilities, because they have been publicly measured and documented many times. IMO, the worst example of outsized egos are in pilots who lack the knowledge to realize how deficient they truly are, yet feel they're beyond learning anything further.

Not saying you didn't have a bad experience and didn't ecounter a bunch of jerks, but it would be unfair and untrue to characterize the whole sport like that...not that you are.
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Well Said Pres!
 
Aerobatics

I put the " Charlie's RV " video together after meeting "Mr Mays" in Sebring .
At lunch he went on a rant about RV's .
Tom
 
From Vans website:

"Although RVs are capable aerobatic aircraft, we do not recommend them for serious competition aerobatics. Their high speed is not suited to the restricted competition zones. In order to stay "in the box’’ they would have to fly slower and lose the benefit of inertia, or keep the speed up and pull too many Gs."
 
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Back on the pony...

sandifer said:
Not saying you didn't have a bad experience and didn't encounter a bunch of jerks, but it would be unfair and untrue to characterize the whole sport like that...not that you are.
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Eric,
Nobody has more potential ego inflation issues than Fighter Pilots, trust me. However comma, the reality of recent world events, daily dealings literally with life and death and time away from home requirements placed on service members have changed all that. Nothing humbles one more than a rotation to Afghanistan or Iraq. I'm sure the group I encountered was rare although they almost ended up "well done". :) I would never judge the IAC from one bad experience and I will compete again...someday.

For now I enjoy supporting a facet of aviation void of ego and rich with service.

V/R
Smokey
www.iamanet.org
 
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ssmdive said:
From Vans website:

"Although RVs are capable aerobatic aircraft, we do not recommend them for serious competition aerobatics. Their high speed is not suited to the restricted competition zones. In order to stay "in the box’’ they would have to fly slower and lose the benefit of inertia, or keep the speed up and pull too many Gs."
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Hmmm. The first two sentences are opinion. The last sentence is objectively false. I find it interesting that they would comment on such a niche activity and be discouraging about it. With due respect to their experience, I have to wonder how much exposure or involvement they have had with competition acro. Saying "serious competition aerobatics" is meaningless and just isn't something anyone close to the sport would say. The "seriousness" of it is a personal choice and has nothing to do with flying style, or any sort of requirements of the sequences. If by "serious", they mean Unlimited, then heck my Pitts is not well-suited for "serious competition aerobatics" either.

Most take the Sportsman category just as seriously as others do the Unlimited category. People fly Sportsman level aerobatics in RVs all the time for fun. The only difference in competition is that you make an effort to fly with as much precision as possible...and stay in the box. There's no need to fly an RV any harder at a contest. Staying in the box is a matter of situational awareness and planning...and practice. RVs can stay in the box just fine. I done seen it with my own eyes. :) The box will always seem too small, and staying in will always be a challenge no matter what you fly...unless you're in a J-3. :) Staying in is a pilot factor, not an aircraft factor. And heck, in Primary, there IS no box.

Needless to say, I disagree with this statement made on Vans website. As always, the actual results carry a lot more weight than opinions do. Ask Bill or Ron if they must pull "too many Gs" to stay in the box. And the energy requirements of the Sportsman category are so low, that this supposed "inertia" issue at lower speeds (if you actually fly at reduced speeds) is a non-issue. The baseline aircraft for the Sportsman category is a 115hp Citabria. An RV could beat that on two cylinders. RVs can fly acro just fine across a wide range of airspeeds. But you have to do all that pilot stuff and actually control the airplane. ;) Entry into a contest does assume a certain level of competency.

Low Pass said:
Very funny! ! And you know what they say about humor. It's roots lie in fact.
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Yep, I had a good laugh at it too. And the fact is that IAC as a whole very much wishes more RVs would get involved. In the aerobatic world, no matter what kind of plane you fly...from a Clipped Cub to an MX, there will be folks that'll trash talk it. It's all in jest.

Eric
IAC 19 Chapter Pres
 
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Gents,

There are two very important points made above that I want to emphasize.
1) I've heard the VAF forum line that fuel weight doesn't count in the aerobatic limit which is completely erroneous. While the fuel weight in the tanks is a relieving load for wing root bending, as the gentleman points out, the spar is tapered and the outboard wing section must carry the bending load for the heavier weight aircraft. Funny, I would find it hard to believe that Vans would publish gross weight limit which includes fuel and on the same chart publish the aerobatic gross weight limit and neglect to mention that this limit was independent of fuel weight. 2) I found the aft cg limit has no margin. I had a friend over from the UK and I checked all the weights and we were right on the rear limit. I'm a professional aerospace engineer in flight mechanics and my friend is a professional test pilot. We took advantage of this and did a full static and maneuvering set of flight tests in the RV-4. We found that the aft limit places my RV-4 slightly statically unstable, but the maneuvering stability was positive stable. So I agree that Vans is being very liberal with limits so respect them as published..
 
ssmdive said:
From Vans website:

"Although RVs are capable aerobatic aircraft, we do not recommend them for serious competition aerobatics. Their high speed is not suited to the restricted competition zones. In order to stay "in the box?? they would have to fly slower and lose the benefit of inertia, or keep the speed up and pull too many Gs."
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Also from Vans website:

"The all-around capabilities of the RV-4 are impressive. It is capable of excellent "sport" aerobatics. Several RV-4 pilots have successfully competed in organized aerobatic competitions, scoring well against specialty aerobatic airplanes."

Flip floppers... :D
 
The RV4 is an ideal beginners' acro mount ( with pertinent RV tuition and having had previous dual instruction to Basic level in either RV, Decathlon,Pitts )...up to Sportsman level.
The RV4 is a satisfying ( 160kts) cross country machine and a shortfield performer,plus it has G limits of +6/-3G ..enough for Sportsman Class...but it is easier to land than a Pitts or Giles.

My son Pierre has won the South African Nationals in 2010..Two weeks ago I won the Ace of Base competition..all in the same RV4 ( without exceeding any limits)...see here on the SA aerobatic website for results and sequences flown...plus competing aircraft.....http://www.aerobatics.co.za

Vans must be congratulated in having designed a great little aircraft.:)

Robert du Plooy
 
Welcome Robert. Thanks for sharing. I continue to find it interesting how much more common it seems to find non-U.S. RVs (South America, UK, Australia, and S. Africa) being used for this sport compared to the 7,000 or so flying here in the states.
 
Congratulations Pierre and Robert, and thanks for the SA acro link and nice video. Very interesting reads, and I noted in other competitions that it was not just RV-4s, but an RV-8 and RV-7 also did well. There was even an RV contest. It looks like you've been competiting for about 4 years, and still having fun. I also ditto Van for designing a great little acro mount, and always wish other RVers would come and join in the fun too:D.
Cheers,
Bill McLean
RV-4 Slider
Alabama
 
Wow! Did you all see all those RV,s competing in South Africa? Way to show up and kick behinds of well established acro rides! Wish more people here in the US will do the same!
 
RV Aerobatics

This old chestnut! Rv's have been flown successfully here in Australia in competition. I won Sportsman in my RV-4 in 2006, and since then an RV-6 has one a couple of times. Best flown below 140KIAS. Keeping the speed in check is the biggest challenge, and the greatest risk for new players.
 
Silent_Flyer said:
Gents,

There are two very important points made above that I want to emphasize.
1) I've heard the VAF forum line that fuel weight doesn't count in the aerobatic limit which is completely erroneous. While the fuel weight in the tanks is a relieving load for wing root bending, as the gentleman points out, the spar is tapered and the outboard wing section must carry the bending load for the heavier weight aircraft. Funny, I would find it hard to believe that Vans would publish gross weight limit which includes fuel and on the same chart publish the aerobatic gross weight limit and neglect to mention that this limit was independent of fuel weight.
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Just for the sake of discussion. Could it be that the main spar is NOT the limiting factor?
 
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