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  #21  
Old 12-04-2022, 01:04 PM
Dean Pichon Dean Pichon is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatanaPilot View Post
For a 10 or 20 foot paint job, maybe. Show quality paint is a lot more than that.

Some of the really high quality paints are pushing $1000 per gallon.

Material costs alone for an RV-10 at the paint shop I use in Alabama were published at $8750. This was in March of this year.

What builders paid even a couple of years ago for paint jobs has little relevance today.
Wow. $8750. The quote I received included a line item break-out for the paint which was $1500 (for primer and 3 Imron colors). The paint stripper was not included in the $1500 break-out, but is included in the $11K total. The painter mentioned to me that stripper is expensive (~$2500 for a 55 gallon drum which is enough for 3 aircraft). Even if an RV-10 has twice the area of a -4, our numbers don't scale. Perhaps more colors, clearcoat, or more expensive brand of paint?
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  #22  
Old 12-04-2022, 04:16 PM
Bandera Bandera is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Gainesville, Tx
Posts: 130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatanaPilot View Post
For a 10 or 20 foot paint job, maybe. Show quality paint is a lot more than that.

Some of the really high quality paints are pushing $1000 per gallon.

Material costs alone for an RV-10 at the paint shop I use in Alabama were published at $8750. This was in March of this year.

What builders paid even a couple of years ago for paint jobs has little relevance today.
Everything I paint is done with JetGlo. Thatís the best you can get for your airplane. A gallon of white with hardener is about $500. For a -10 youíll need to buy two kits plus a quart or two of each trim color needed. Those run from $100 to about $300 per quart depending on color. Budget about $500 for primer. Figure about $500 for consumables.
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  #23  
Old 12-04-2022, 04:37 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 5,144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Everything I paint is done with JetGlo. Thatís the best you can get for your airplane. A gallon of white with hardener is about $500. For a -10 youíll need to buy two kits plus a quart or two of each trim color needed. Those run from $100 to about $300 per quart depending on color. Budget about $500 for primer. Figure about $500 for consumables.
My -10 was painted with Jetglo. After all the dust settled, the total material cost at the paint shop was right at $3K, which is very much inline with the information in Bandera's post.
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Kyle Boatright
Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019? (actually 2022) RV-10 N46BX
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  #24  
Old 12-04-2022, 07:24 PM
KatanaPilot KatanaPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Pichon View Post
Perhaps more colors, clearcoat, or more expensive brand of paint?
Yes, yes and yes.

There is a reason Jonathan is booked out until November 2026 right now. Planes painted at Evoke win more awards than those painted anywhere else. The attention to detail is second to none.

Not everyone sees the value in an Evoke Signature Series paint job and that's fine. I don't know anyone that has had their plane painted by Evoke and has regretted their decision.
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Krea Ellis

Locust Grove, GA
DA20-A1 "Princess Amelia" - gone home to Amelia Island
RV-7A Phase 2 (Honored to be Van's "Miss July" 2021) - now at her new home in Lakeville, MN
RV-10ER officially an airplane as of 4/5/22!
EAA Technical Counselor
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  #25  
Old 01-06-2023, 08:37 AM
Swtpol Swtpol is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2023
Location: Los angeles
Posts: 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoydBirchler View Post
Price sounds good if the quality of the finished product is good. My only problem is Imron has very low solvent resistance, MEK and a shop towel will let you wipe it off in a few minutes (my experience from 34 years in the coatings removal business). I would pay extra to get a full catalyzed urethane paint.
The only problem with Imron is that the activators used are isocyanates and not for the faint of heart to paint without a solid fresh air setup versus other inferior paints with lesser volatile compounds.

Imron is the bomb when it comes to durability and longevity compared to wall grip, akzo Nobel aerospace coatings and jetglo which is a cheaper option.

There isnít one choice of option - there are several.

AF400 is the single stage version and used most often in aircraft. Af3500 is single stage for much higher performance aircraft due to it having anti sag components and this has a greater mix ratio of hardener. Af700 is base coat clear coat. On aircraft that sit outside, I prefer to not use base coat clear coat due too the eventual chalkiness appearance of clear coat fading. Better to use single stage so someone can come along with a rag of solvent and say how easy it is to peel Imron after a 20-30 year paint job begins to fade.

Polishers consistently complain how hard it is to buff Imron.

There is very healthy margin in the paint business.

I just picked up 3 cans of AF404 (Matterhorn white factory pack Imron) for my discount of $233 a gallon . An RV should take 3-4 gallons painted white, not I closing trim stripes. Hardener is similar pricing on a 3:1 mix ratio.

13580 corlar is the best sealer used from axalta for the application following acid etching and alodonkng, if that is your preferred method.

Stripping with Benco b14/b15 as a combination versus peroxide products that take 24 hours to peel is the way. About 300-400 in stripper.

Now - how much margin is there I. A $15-25k paint job? Enough to offend me to learn how to do it myself for many years.
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  #26  
Old 01-06-2023, 04:40 PM
KatanaPilot KatanaPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swtpol View Post

ÖThere is very healthy margin in the paint businessÖ

Now - how much margin is there I. A $15-25k paint job? Enough to offend me to learn how to do it myself for many years.
Maybe thatís true of the paint suppliers, I have no idea.

I will tell you that my painter is not living large, despite having nearly 200 planes on his waiting list. For a $35k paint job on an RV-10, they will spend 200-300 hours just in body prep (figure $40/hour fully loaded personnel cost), $9k or more on materials and supplies and I would estimate several hundred more hours in the paint shop. Reassembly and many hours of detail work that is amazing.

They have three hangars that they use - one for body work, one is the paint shop and airplane storage plus one for final prep, assembly and delivery. So overhead is not inconsequential.

The finished products are works of art.

I suspect that their margins are very small and most of their profit comes from design work, etc. Probably not unlike a new car dealer who survives on the parts and service departments - not from new car sales.
__________________
Krea Ellis

Locust Grove, GA
DA20-A1 "Princess Amelia" - gone home to Amelia Island
RV-7A Phase 2 (Honored to be Van's "Miss July" 2021) - now at her new home in Lakeville, MN
RV-10ER officially an airplane as of 4/5/22!
EAA Technical Counselor
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  #27  
Old 01-06-2023, 04:45 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 8,689
Default Slight thread drift....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Pichon View Post

If the price seems high, I may try to borrow scales and do it my self. Apparently draining the fuel is the norm before re-weighing. I had hoped to simply top off the tanks and subtract out the 16 gallons per side. Others have suggested this method would lack necessary accuracy. I'm still debating this detail. The 32 gallon tank capacity is accurate to with a faction of a gallon. The density does vary significantly with temperature, but if I know the gas temp when the aircraft is weighed, I can compensate...
I don't think it matters much, for weight, whether you make the measurement at full or empty. OTOH, you need to be careful about CG measurements. My -10 sees the cg move toward the limits as I burn fuel; hence, to get the most accuracy, I would think you would want to make the "weight on all three wheels" measurements with tanks empty, so you don't have to wonder exactly what the tanks hold, nor exactly what the fuel moment arm is. To be honest, I haven't run the calculations with reasonable error assumptions, to see if there's any appreciable variation.
Many EAA local chapters have scales their members can borrow. Ask around.
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  #28  
Old 01-06-2023, 06:39 PM
Bandera Bandera is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Gainesville, Tx
Posts: 130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swtpol View Post
The only problem with Imron is that the activators used are isocyanates and not for the faint of heart to paint without a solid fresh air setup versus other inferior paints with lesser volatile compounds.

Imron is the bomb when it comes to durability and longevity compared to wall grip, akzo Nobel aerospace coatings and jetglo which is a cheaper option.

There isnít one choice of option - there are several.

AF400 is the single stage version and used most often in aircraft. Af3500 is single stage for much higher performance aircraft due to it having anti sag components and this has a greater mix ratio of hardener. Af700 is base coat clear coat. On aircraft that sit outside, I prefer to not use base coat clear coat due too the eventual chalkiness appearance of clear coat fading. Better to use single stage so someone can come along with a rag of solvent and say how easy it is to peel Imron after a 20-30 year paint job begins to fade.

Polishers consistently complain how hard it is to buff Imron.

There is very healthy margin in the paint business.

I just picked up 3 cans of AF404 (Matterhorn white factory pack Imron) for my discount of $233 a gallon . An RV should take 3-4 gallons painted white, not I closing trim stripes. Hardener is similar pricing on a 3:1 mix ratio.

13580 corlar is the best sealer used from axalta for the application following acid etching and alodonkng, if that is your preferred method.

Stripping with Benco b14/b15 as a combination versus peroxide products that take 24 hours to peel is the way. About 300-400 in stripper.

Now - how much margin is there I. A $15-25k paint job? Enough to offend me to learn how to do it myself for many years.
Aluma-Grip and JetGlo both have isocyanates.
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  #29  
Old 01-06-2023, 06:41 PM
Bandera Bandera is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Gainesville, Tx
Posts: 130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
I don't think it matters much, for weight, whether you make the measurement at full or empty. OTOH, you need to be careful about CG measurements. My -10 sees the cg move toward the limits as I burn fuel; hence, to get the most accuracy, I would think you would want to make the "weight on all three wheels" measurements with tanks empty, so you don't have to wonder exactly what the tanks hold, nor exactly what the fuel moment arm is. To be honest, I haven't run the calculations with reasonable error assumptions, to see if there's any appreciable variation.
Many EAA local chapters have scales their members can borrow. Ask around.
I canít speak for an RV-10 but a basic paint job on an 7 or 8 is around 19 pounds plus or minus.
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  #30  
Old 01-07-2023, 10:08 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 8,042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Aluma-Grip and JetGlo both have isocyanates.
Pretty much any solvent based polyurethane coating (bases excluded as they are typically not activated) has isocyanates. Most epoxy primers do as well. If it doesn't have Iso's, it is probably acrylic and you want to run away from that.

The poster mentioned that Iso's are votile. Iso's are not VOC's and they tend to be heavy, so they rapidly settle to the lower areas of the ambient air within a couple minutes. The smell after painting is all the VOC's that do not sink.
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N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019

Last edited by lr172 : 01-07-2023 at 10:12 AM.
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